Krigstein's 8-page "Master Race" OA at Heritage. How Much? 0

[Comic Art Factory]

Considering the last owners of the art before it came in auction, I'm surprised no one addresses the possibility of the art being "altered", even slightly.

Are there scans of the art or a real condition report of it, before it came into possession of those guys, as we all know they've altered so many pieces of art, and never hesitated to have art restored in some peculiar way, like having someone ink all over a marker-done cover for example. Because if by any chance the art was teared, or missing a piece of panel, there's very little chance this would be mentioned.  

[jjonahjameson11]

So we’re hearing a lot of folks opine about the historical significance of this story as a basis for heightened valuation, but I just don’t see it.  Perhaps they will clarify What historical significance this story contains?

additionally, EC’s have been reprinted to death so this story was/is/will be accessible to everyone on this message board.  I read the story back in the 80’s and again in the 90s and thought it was ‘OK’.  Not exceptional or even great, but just ‘OK’.  The hardcore EC collectors may have been very active in purchasing EC comics and participating in Russ’ EC OA Auctions in the 80’s, but honestly, I think they are now in a different phase in their lives and are probably reducing the size of their collections, and not seekIng  to purchase more OA.

as for the generation of OA collectors presently most active, I am assuming they were born between 1965-1980, give or take a few years.  Does this story/art combination truly resonate with them?  At the numbers people are throwing around  in this thread?  I really don’t know, but I do recall how excited we were when the cover to ASM 121 came to HA.  A signicant cover of the ASM and arguably one of the pillars that ushered in the Bronze Age of comics, so there was that whole ‘historically significant ‘ thing going for it.  Estimates of $400K and more were cited and in the end, the final hammer price was met with a dull thud of less than $300K

[Nexus]

50 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

as for the generation of OA collectors presently most active, I am assuming they were born between 1965-1980, give or take a few years.  Does this story/art combination truly resonate with them?  At the numbers people are throwing around  in this thread?

Yes.

It's a legendary masterwork. Timeless.

It should be the exact sort of thing the Lucas Museum would want for its holdings: An influential, widely-recognized, respected "important" work. No, it won't draw the crowds in by itself, but displaying it alongside popular superhero art (or whatever) elevates the entire proceedings.

It's also for that reason that I can see any number of BSDs interested in it as well. Regardless, it's also right in the wheelhouse of a certain HA bigwig...so I expect this story to do quite well.

55 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

I really don’t know, but I do recall how excited we were when the cover to ASM 121 came to HA.  A signicant cover of the ASM and arguably one of the pillars that ushered in the Bronze Age of comics, so there was that whole ‘historically significant ‘ thing going for it.  Estimates of $400K and more were cited and in the end, the final hammer price was met with a dull thud of less than $300K

The auctioneer did the lot no favors by rushing through it, but still, it finished where I figured it would. It was only considered an underperformer by those who bought into the mistaken notion that ASM #328 set a bar for all other ASM covers, when #328 was a complete and total outlier. #121 put that to rest, thankfully.

[Nexus]

2 hours ago, Comic Art Factory said:

Considering the last owners of the art before it came in auction, I'm surprised no one addresses the possibility of the art being "altered", even slightly.

Are there scans of the art or a real condition report of it, before it came into possession of those guys, as we all know they've altered so many pieces of art, and never hesitated to have art restored in some peculiar way, like having someone ink all over a marker-done cover for example. Because if by any chance the art was teared, or missing a piece of panel, there's very little chance this would be mentioned.  

Good point. Would hope that any work that's been done on the pages is fully disclosed.

A boardie was the owner before the Bros., so he should know. Hope he shares.

[PhilipB2k17]

When you have cheerleaders for this art like Neil Gaiman, Art Spiegleman and Frank Miller, it transcends the normal bounds of the hobby, IMHO. And its not just the art thats important. It dealt with the Holocaust in a popular entertainment forum in a way that was not common at the time. The subject matter is extremely important, as well. 

[vodou]

"Master Race" for less than $300k "all in" will be viewed as a savvy lynch-pin buy within 5 years, 10 at the outside. Those of us doing this thing for more than ten years know that paying 2-5x hobby math fmv "back then" wasn't about the money (replaceable) but the opportunity (likely irreplaceable). That's what some folks, probably ghosts around here if at all, are working out for themselves pre-auction. Could run to $500k or   higher (or not!!), but I wouldn't know...not ever the level I even rub shoulders with at the bar. MR is not an investment in the usual way (ROI math) instead it's a crown jewel for an already important collection or one still being assembled, whether public or private. (Which is not the Donnelly's...and why it's absolutely appropriate for them to disgorge it for -one assumes- primarily capital raising reasons.) Doubtful this story disappears into a black hole. Nobody would spend what it takes to win with the intent to anonymously hide it away - those willing to justify the price would be those willing to share/lend/etc; that aspect is a big part of the justification. This isn't Anthony or Mike level, it's Zwirner level; transcendent to the standard rules of "comic" art appreciation inside fandom. The head scratching on this thread sort of proves that.

This is a transfer of ownership that should have been done private but due to the present owner's need (lol) isn't, and we're all lucky in that to find out what the actual final dollars at hammer - made public - will be!

[glendgold]

3 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

So we’re hearing a lot of folks opine about the historical significance of this story as a basis for heightened valuation, but I just don’t see it.  Perhaps they will clarify What historical significance this story contains?

 

Quick google search brings up a few articles I remember that explain it:

http://sequart.org/magazine/57102/frank-miller-krigstein-master-race/

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/ballbuster  

  (you need to scroll down a few grafs)

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/03/cartoonist-legend-bernard-krigsteins-career-foresh.html

G

 

 

[SquareChaos]

On 9/28/2018 at 11:49 AM, glendgold said:

Gene, I must lovingly chastise you!  I've been to the Billy Ireland and it's something each and every one of us should do.  Last week was Cartoon Crossroads, their once-a-year celebration of all things comics-based.  It's got academic componants, artists who are in the news (the year I went, the big guest was Garry Trudeau -- this year it was, I kid you not, Olivia Jaimes's first public appearance), and artists whose work is far more popular than any of the stuff we worry about here (Raina Telgemeier).  Also there's art for sale, mostly local artists, so if you're a Bone fan, you can find work by him you won't find anywhere else. 
Beyond the festival, there's the museum.  When I was there they had Calvin & Hobbes and Little Nemos on the walls.  That people could look at.  And if you or I made an appoinment with someone like Jenny Robb, curator, she would give you a charming tour of those archives, and you can look at all the Caniff and Watterson you could imagine. 

If you were saying Ohio is out of the way, you're right.  But it's not just part of a giant archive -- it's on display frequently.  I encourage everyone to visit.

 

I live in Ohio and I'm one of the few residents that considers it a greater state treasure than the college football team.

[Pickie]

Hard to believe that you got such a work as part of a comic book for just 10 cents. What do you get for the converted amount these days ...

OP wants a number: 370k 

Lucas museum would be a nice place, wanna go and visit some day.

[Tatterdamillion]

$550,000

[Timely]

$240,000 is my estimate. 

[delekkerste]

On 9/28/2018 at 11:49 AM, glendgold said:

Gene, I must lovingly chastise you!  I've been to the Billy Ireland and it's something each and every one of us should do.  Last week was Cartoon Crossroads, their once-a-year celebration of all things comics-based.  It's got academic componants, artists who are in the news (the year I went, the big guest was Garry Trudeau -- this year it was, I kid you not, Olivia Jaimes's first public appearance), and artists whose work is far more popular than any of the stuff we worry about here (Raina Telgemeier).  Also there's art for sale, mostly local artists, so if you're a Bone fan, you can find work by him you won't find anywhere else. 
Beyond the festival, there's the museum.  When I was there they had Calvin & Hobbes and Little Nemos on the walls.  That people could look at.  And if you or I made an appoinment with someone like Jenny Robb, curator, she would give you a charming tour of those archives, and you can look at all the Caniff and Watterson you could imagine. 

If you were saying Ohio is out of the way, you're right.  But it's not just part of a giant archive -- it's on display frequently.  I encourage everyone to visit.

 

Well, since you did it so lovingly.   

I'm sure the BICML is a lovely place - I've seen photos in the past, so know that it is not a Raiders-style warehouse/archive in the literal sense, just that, if few ever go that far off the beaten path to visit, it might as well be (figuratively) an archive.  At least the Library of Congress is in a major metropolitan area that happens to be very close to many other major metropolitan centers (though, sorry Phil, I know that there are plenty of people who would have liked to have seen that art make its way to the auction block - I'm sure every dealer and auction house would have LOVED using those comps to price their own art!).  I suspect that more of our usual OA crowd would get to see the Master Race OA if it ended up in the hands of a BSD vs. the BICML; that is just the reality of it, unfortunately.    

[delekkerste]

10 hours ago, vodou said:

Nobody would spend what it takes to win with the intent to anonymously hide it away - those willing to justify the price would be those willing to share/lend/etc; that aspect is a big part of the justification.

I don't know about that...there are a lot of top-level pieces that have sold at auction and privately in recent years that have not resurfaced in the public eye.  Some pieces are shared with a small, private circle of friends, while some just seemed to have vanished into the ether entirely (ASM #121 cover, anyone?)  But, in either case, there are many trophies that have been won by numerous collectors in recent years that are not visible to the naked eye.  

[delekkerste]

23 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

So we’re hearing a lot of folks opine about the historical significance of this story as a basis for heightened valuation, but I just don’t see it.  Perhaps they will clarify What historical significance this story contains?

additionally, EC’s have been reprinted to death so this story was/is/will be accessible to everyone on this message board.  I read the story back in the 80’s and again in the 90s and thought it was ‘OK’.  Not exceptional or even great, but just ‘OK’.  The hardcore EC collectors may have been very active in purchasing EC comics and participating in Russ’ EC OA Auctions in the 80’s, but honestly, I think they are now in a different phase in their lives and are probably reducing the size of their collections, and not seekIng to purchase more OA.

as for the generation of OA collectors presently most active, I am assuming they were born between 1965-1980, give or take a few years.  Does this story/art combination truly resonate with them?  At the numbers people are throwing around  in this thread?  I really don’t know, but I do recall how excited we were when the cover to ASM 121 came to HA.  A signicant cover of the ASM and arguably one of the pillars that ushered in the Bronze Age of comics, so there was that whole ‘historically significant ‘ thing going for it.  Estimates of $400K and more were cited and in the end, the final hammer price was met with a dull thud of less than $300K

The story is probably 10-15% of its importance; it's the art/storytelling technique that is pioneering and historic.  I mean, if the story had just been drawn in a very conventional way, this would just be a good EC New Direction story (which already puts it behind the 8-ball) and the OA would sell for, well, probably 10-15% of what it's likely going to sell for. 

You are right that a lot of hardcore EC collectors are now in their 50s-70s and no longer very active in purchasing comics and OA.  That said, you've got a guy born in the 1940s (Lucas and his museum) and in the 1950s (Halperin) who are not only actively buying, but swinging bigger sticks than ever before.  As for the 1965-1980 cohort, I think you are only half-right.  Though this group didn't grow up with contemporaneously with EC in the '50s, like Halperin (who would have been too young to read them contemporaneously as well), many of us would discover the comics through back issues and/or reprints, and also learn from participating in the hobby, talking to older collectors, reading fanzines and Overstreet and the like how important these books were.  As such, I'd say there are a lot of people born in 1965-early 1970s who do have a profound appreciation for not only EC Comics, but, for other older comics and comic strips as well (and the OA of course).  I would include myself in this group.

I do agree that there's a profound drop-off in EC appreciation for those born in the mid-70s and later.  And, once you get into the cohort that grew up with McSpidey, Jim Lee and then all the Image books and '90s drek...forget it.  I'm sorry, but, the generations after mine are hopeless.*  Not going to name names, but, just look at some of the more expensive collections put together by Millennials on CAF.  Talk about the triumph of nostalgia over craft.  Heck, I don't even think nostalgia vs. craft is the right comparison - maybe flash vs. craft or drek vs. history.  GET OFF MY LAWN.  

I was just having a similar conversation about this last week with various friends of mine.  My theory is that uber-collector The Vacuum represents the demarcation line for a lot of material out there that I think is undergoing a generational change in appreciation.  I struggle to think of anyone younger than him (and there are a number of other collectors around that age, including myself, so I'm not necessarily talking about him specifically being interested in all of the material I mention below) who has both the taste/interest and resources to acquire a lot of art that seems to be rapidly going out of favor with younger collectors.  I'd include EC art in this mix (who is the youngest collector out there who has a really nice EC cover or complete story?), as well as 1970s era BWS (probably Jeff Jones and Michael Kaluta from all eras too), Mike Ploog and Richard Corben (revered among certain 40 and 50-somethings; mean less than nothing to most people who primarily collect art from the past 30 years), Frazetta oils (who is the youngest owner of a Frazetta oil painting whose last name isn't "Frazetta"?), etc. I could go on.  And on.  And on.

 

 

* Of course there are individual exceptions that prove the rule!  Please feel free to believe that you are one of the exceptions (even though you probably are not) if you are a younger collector who has taken offense to my comments.  

Edited September 30, 2018 by delekkerste

[The Voord]

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Comic Art Factory said:

Considering the last owners of the art before it came in auction, I'm surprised no one addresses the possibility of the art being "altered", even slightly.

Are there scans of the art or a real condition report of it, before it came into possession of those guys, as we all know they've altered so many pieces of art, and never hesitated to have art restored in some peculiar way, like having someone ink all over a marker-done cover for example. Because if by any chance the art was teared, or missing a piece of panel, there's very little chance this would be mentioned.  

Should be no reason whatsoever for the Donnelly Brothers to have altered this story artwork.  Gaines kept the bulk of the EC art locked away in a vault for many years and when released to the marketplace  (commencing late 1970s) were in great condition.  Krigstein altered the artboards himself, at time of publication, wanting to expand the story through a re-structuring of the pages (I think it was originally intended as a 6 or 7-page story?).  The Donnellys tampering habits usually involves altering unpublished artworks to make them look like unused cover designs.

Edited September 30, 2018 by The Voord

[Comic Art Factory]

1 hour ago, The Voord said:

Should be no reason whatsoever for the Donnelly Brothers to have altered this story artwork.  Gaines kept the bulk of the EC art locked away in a vault for many years and when released to the marketplace  (commencing late 1970s) were in great condition.  Krigstein altered the artboards himself, at time of publication, wanting to expand the story through a re-structuring of the pages (I think it was originally intended as a 6 or 7-page story?).  The Donnellys tampering habits usually involves altering unpublished artworks to make them look like unused cover designs.

Not just that. Completely re-inking a published piece initially done with marker (which had faded when art was sold at auction) opened up a lot of possibilities.  And I'm pretty sure that wasn't a first. 

[NoMan]

22 hours ago, Pickie said:

Hard to believe that you got such a work as part of a comic book for just 10 cents. What do you get for the converted amount these days ...

OP wants a number: 370k 

Lucas museum would be a nice place, wanna go and visit some day.

I see the cranes building it as I pass by driving The 110. I ought to go check it out but will probably spend the day on the Fredrick's Of Hollywood site. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by NoMan

[The Voord]

1 hour ago, Comic Art Factory said:

Not just that. Completely re-inking a published piece initially done with marker (which had faded when art was sold at auction) opened up a lot of possibilities.  And I'm pretty sure that wasn't a first. 

What's all that got to do with 'Master Race'?  Complete published story finished in ink (not markers).  Absolutely no reason that I can think of for the Donnellys to even consider altering it.

Edited September 30, 2018 by The Voord

[NelsonAI]

I think it's common knowledge that Frank Miller swiped the running away in the subway sequence from Krigstein and used it in DD.

Cheers!

N.

[jjonahjameson11]

Glen, Many thanks for the links.  I thoroughly enjoyed them and found them to be informative.  I was even able to read-read the story again with all of the page scans included in the articles.

and Gene, thanks for your response to my questions.  It was interesting to note where we agree and diverge.

Given the aforementioned, I will concede this story may be very significant to a handful of collectors willing to pay $XXXK+ for it, and I wish them all the best.  

Me, I’d rather have a nice McSpidey cover for that kinda dough. ?