#comicsgate and your collecting habits 1 1

[JadeGiant]

I was chasing an EVS commission about 10 years ago when he was extremely popular and hard to get. I eventually gave up as a couple good friends were given the run around by him and sold off the commissions that they ended up getting from him due to the experience leaving a bad taste in their mouth. This was all before he became known as he is now. His art doesn't hold the appeal it once did so he is not on my list. I don't know that the current stuff he posts has any impact as I don't pay a ton of attention to it. 

 

I have a Syaf commission. I love it. When the news broke on him it did give me pause but I decided to keep it in the end as it didn't impact my appreciation of the piece too negatively. 

[zhamlau]

There are quite a few artists and creators whose online presence makes them look like pretty awful people. I find the best option for me is to treat them like I do athletes or celebrities in general. Their creations/abilities are what I'm fascinated by and appreciate, not who they are personally. Just because you can draw, act, write, or play a game doesn't mean your goofy political/social opinions have any great value .Knowing that I tend to not get to bothered by whatever screaming judgemental online presence they choose to have.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by zhamlau

[vodou]

3 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

There are quite a few artists and creators whose online presence makes them look like pretty awful people

Many people, but especially "celebrities" (of all vocations), confuse being excellent or even a genius at one thing equaling being a genius at anything and everything else (such as political science or even writing a logically persuasive argument. L O L. They ought instead count their blessing and respect their own hard work and success, letting others excel at what they are best at. Nobody needs another Jordan picking up a baseball bat. Or a lecture on global warming from hypocrite Harrison Ford whom I nonetheless will never tire of in any SW, Indy, and many other films.

[Rick2you2]

I can only think of one instance where an artist's politics mattered to me and it was an actress who I felt behaved anti-American. That's not something I really regard as politics in the same sense. 

Why should the politics matter? They don't ask my views if I want to buy their stuff. Why should I be concerned about the views of the seller?

 

[NoMan]

14 hours ago, Peter L said:

My hope is that this is a neutrally written summary.  I would follow this issue on social media but finally it just broke my heart and started to sap away my love of comics so I stopped trying to follow along.

EVS has a video blog and he discusses his opinions of comics and popular arts.  Not all of those who express support of comicsgate hold all of these following views.  Some of the criticisms are that comics are bad for (at one point recently) recasting all of their major heroes as women including Captain America, Wolverine, Thor, and Iron Man.  They would argue that they should make new characters instead of turning their favorite characters either women or not straight.  They believe that comics have gotten too liberal and cite as examples portraying Trump as Modok and the Mockingbird cover where she wears a shirt that says, "Ask me about my feminist agenda."   They say they are not misogynistic, homophobic or racist but just want good comic stories without any political agenda.  Some followers have reportedly complained that they cannot get jobs in comics because they are not diverse or women and they believe that some have gotten comic jobs without qualifications or skill because they are women or ethnically diverse.  They assert that conservative creators have been blacklisted from Marvel and DC.  In response, EVS has crowdfunded a comic featuring his character cyberfrog and has raised about $600,000.  He says comicsgaters only want good stories and heroes without agendas.  Comicsgate supporters say they are boycotting many comics of the big 2 and claim this is why sales are down and comic shops are closing.  There is an overlap of those who support comicsgate and those who didn't like The Last Jedi and for many of the same reasons.  In one of the most criticized actions, on EVS video blog, he reportedly broke a Rose Tico doll to criticize what he felt was a poorly written character arc.

The opposing side believes that comicsgate supporters are misogynistic, homophobic and racist for not wanting diversity.  Most of the comics industry working for DC and Marvel are on this side.  They believe that comics were always political and cite Captain America punching Hitler and one of Superman's first actions as beating up a wife abuser and Stan Lee's soapboxes.  Some of the more vocal names include Gail Simone, Mark Waid,, Kurt Busiek, and the comic blogs Comic Book Resources and Bleeding Cool.  They believe that comicsgate is part of the alt-right movement and cyberfrog is a homage of the white supremacist meme of Peppe the Frog.  They have expressed outrage that EVS has not denounced comicsgate followers who cyber bullied female Marvel editors who went to buy milkshakes, or transexual comic colorist Tamra Bonvillain.  They say that those comicsgaters who can't get comic jobs are because of their talent and not because of favoritism.  As an example Gail Simone posted comic work in progress on a comicsgater who said he was blacklisted.  The work that she posted appeared to be crudely drawn and written and below the standards of DC and Marvel and he was ridiculed online.  They say that EVS breaking the Rose Tico doll was a sign of misogny and racism because no other dolls of other male or Caucasian characters were destroyed on the show, and subsequently actress Rose Marie Tan was harassed off of social media.  Joe Quesada has commented that something like 45 out of 50 current Marvel titles are purely action without agenda and not created by the most vocal liberal creators, and so that comicsgaters are exaggerating their complaints.  

There is very bad feelings on both sides and both sides seem to believe the worst about those with differing opinions.  One of Darwyn Cooke's friends Billy Tucci said he would have some of the same concerns about modern comics as comicsgate, and his widow responded that her husband would have thought comicsgate supporters were "insufficiently_thoughtful_persons."  Comicsgate supporters then attacked her and EVS asked them to "respect her and offer her excessive kindness even if you disagree with her words," and then she called EVS out for not denouncing the racist and homophobic actions of comicsgaters on social media.  

Comicsgaters tried to claim creators including Neil Gaiman had published comic work before he was offered regular work at DC, unlike some who got work today.  Then Gaiman disagreed with this and said he had only published two prose stories up to the time he was given a chance to write Black Orchid and then Sandman.  Then comicsgaters attempted to attack him saying that his resume disagrees with this, but then he explained why that was incorrect, and then he was attacked more on social media.  

Comics creator Richard Meyer has filed suit against Mark Waid saying that Waid interfered with his comic getting distributed because of support for Comicsgate, although Waid says this is untrue.  

Some things I forgot to add:

Mike Deodato said that he and others would refuse to appear at a comic con if a comicsgate supporting creator appeared.  This seemed to have the effect of the comic con making a choice to cancel the comicsgate creator or lose a lot more popular creators appearing.  So this boycott would fundamentally remove a platform for those who support comicsgate.

Dave Sim said he would help EVS on cyberfrog.

Anti-comicsgaters criticize EVS for supposed racism and misogyny and point to a recently created female superhero like Green Lantern Jessica Cruz as a success.  Then EVS responded by pointing out that he co-created her.  

Frank Cho walked off of Wonder Woman after his sixth cover because it was edited to remove her bottom in a disagreement with the writer of the book Phil Jimenez.  Many of Cho's statements at that time criticizing agenda filled comics and censoring sexy women parts appeared to line up with comicsgate complaints.  When coimcisgate social media users began to use Cho as an example of their issues, Cho distanced himself from the movement and saying he doesn't support it and the racism associated with it.  He was applauded by the anti-comicsgate supporters while at the same time still criticized by the same people for his sexy outrage covers.

Bill Sienkievich's public statements came along with many other creators in support of Darwyn Cooke's widow's comments and subsequent attacks upon her.

Comicsgaters will cite the box office failure of Solo to a boycott from those who didn't like the social agenda of the Last Jedi.

Last year, Marvel’s vice president of sales has blamed declining comic-book sales on the studio’s efforts to increase diversity and female characters, saying that readers “were turning their noses up” at diversity and “didn’t want female characters out there”. Comicsgaters then applauded the private mysterious firing of Marvel EIC Alex Alonso, who oversaw many of the diversity changes in the comics while also mirrored a downturn in sales.  Comicsgaters use the dropping sales as a sign of their boycott working.  

Chelsea Cain is the writer who wrote the controversial Mockingbird series with the "feminist agenda" shirt.  It was cancelled soon after due to low sales but reportedly the publicity helped it to sell better on digital later.  Marvel just totally cancelled her Vision series that had cover art done, and the first few issues completed.  The stated reason given was that Marvel wanted to use the characters in a different way, even though she and her husband started work on this series about 18 months ago.  Cain unloaded on Marvel for what she felt was poor treatment of their independent contractors.

 

thanks for summing that up for those of us not paying attention. I googled some names and started reading this about that and that about this and decided it's better to not be paying attention.

But the sum up you wrote is appreciated. 

[RB3]

I'm a gold member at Torpedo Comics and get to have lunch with artist/writers when they visit.  I've heard some very fascinating stories and some very interesting views too.  So far there is only one artist who really upset me about his views, making statements about how big his 6,000 sq foot house is and all about his political views.  I could care less about how big his house is nor his political views, what upset me was that he was trying to tell me how I should live and what I should do, yet he then goes on to say that it didnt apply to him.  So, he wants to live his life his way, yet impose his thoughts and beliefs on others, so I sold all his art and would not collect anything from him in the future.  

But as mentioned above, I really am not collecting a persons political ideology, I am collecting his/her artistic abilities.  Unless the creator does something that is so outrageous, I dont think their beliefs will affect the prices or desirability of their work.  

[PhilipB2k17]

6 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Dave Sim was not/ is not what you state.  I’ve known the man for over 30 years.

What is your personal experience/connection to him to draw such a conclusion?

“It wouldn’t be that big a stretch to categorize my writing as Hate Literature against women… in this Fascistic Feminist country” — Dave Sim

 

[jjonahjameson11]

2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

“It wouldn’t be that big a stretch to categorize my writing as Hate Literature against women… in this Fascistic Feminist country” — Dave Sim

 

Ah yes, the old, tiny snippet everyone uses when convenient to bash Dave.  But my question again: what is YOUR personal experience with Dave?  Ever meet the man or do you just feel like besmirching him on this message board?

[Bird]

 

Not yet on the wall but it will be eventually.

[PhilipB2k17]

25 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Ah yes, the old, tiny snippet everyone uses when convenient to bash Dave.  But my question again: what is YOUR personal experience with Dave?  Ever meet the man or do you just feel like besmirching him on this message board?

I only met Sim once, briefly, at a Con in the early 80’s. This thread isn’t about people being personally affronted by an artist, but whether their enthusiasm for their art is effected by their odious stances such as being bigoted, sexist, etc. 

Dave describes himself as a misogynist. And a lot of his later writings were pretty odious. M I was just pointing out that it wouldn’t effect my desire to own a Cerebus page. 

Care to jump in and defend any of the  Comicsgate guys? 

[Dokstarr]

20 hours ago, Peter L said:

My hope is that this is a neutrally written summary. 

Excellent summary. Like many things the truth falls in the middle of what both sides scream from the rooftops. I thought the Frank Cho developments were interesting after so much of that crowd supported him throughout all the negative coverage and articles written about him and his response with the "outrage" covers.

[Mr. Machismo]

Great summary. I think this sums it up pretty well for me: “Anti-comicsgaters criticize EVS for supposed racism and misogyny and point to a recently created female superhero like Green Lantern Jessica Cruz as a success.  Then EVS responded by pointing out that he co-created her.”

I won’t support art in certain scenarios, like Syaf’s anti-semitism. 

I was at an art collectors meetup a couple years back and saw a nice piece. When I asked who illustrated it, I was told he was an ex-comic artist currently in prison for pedophilia! At that point I rather the piece burned than in my collection

[PhilipB2k17]

10 hours ago, Mr. Machismo said:

Great summary. I think this sums it up pretty well for me: “Anti-comicsgaters criticize EVS for supposed racism and misogyny and point to a recently created female superhero like Green Lantern Jessica Cruz as a success.  Then EVS responded by pointing out that he co-created her.”

I won’t support art in certain scenarios, like Syaf’s anti-semitism. 

I was at an art collectors meetup a couple years back and saw a nice piece. When I asked who illustrated it, I was told he was an ex-comic artist currently in prison for pedophilia! At that point I rather the piece burned than in my collection

Why does EVS get feminist street cred for doing his job and drawing a character the writer wants him to draw? Give him credit for the design of the character, and the visual style language, sure. But was this character HIS idea? Did he have the option to say “hell no. I’m not drawing a Latina Green Lantern?” 

Or was it just a job, and he got paid? 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/1/2018 at 3:09 PM, zhamlau said:

There are quite a few artists and creators whose online presence makes them look like pretty awful people. I find the best option for me is to treat them like I do athletes or celebrities in general. Their creations/abilities are what I'm fascinated by and appreciate, not who they are personally. Just because you can draw, act, write, or play a game doesn't mean your goofy political/social opinions have any great value .Knowing that I tend to not get to bothered by whatever screaming judgemental online presence they choose to have.

 

 

Yeah, but part of the problem is - THEY DO.

They have a problem with women or minorities in comics and they make it known.

 

[Prince Namor]

Here's where comicsgate started:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/news/female-marvel-comics-editor-harassed-online-milkshake-selfie/

[Prince Namor]

F those guys. 

Harassing women. Freakin' cowards.

[Peter L]

There is an amazing comic I read that perhaps only the few of you could appreciate.  I bought the collection of Fletcher Hanks comic work called “I Shall Destroy All The Civilized Planets!”   It won the Eisner award in 2008 for Best Archival Collection. Here is a description of Hanks that I found on Amazon:

One of the strangest cartoonists of American comics' Golden Age, Hanks had a short career—the 15 stories collected here were all published between 1939 and 1941—but the deranged, nightmarish vigor of his work has made it something of a cult item. Hanks created pulpy characters like Stardust the Super Wizard, the scientific marvel whose vast knowledge of all planets has made him the most remarkable person ever known and the jungle heroine Fantomah, whose face becomes a snarling skull when she uses her magic powers. The artist's manic obsessions turn up again and again: global-scale atrocities, miraculous rays and, most of all, poetically apt punishments. In a typical story, Master-Mind De Structo tries to suffocate America's heads of state with an oxygen-destroying ray, so Stardust turns him into a giant head, then hurls him into a space pocket of living death occupied by a headless headhunter.

There is one new short comic story at the beginning that explains how the editor Paul Karasik tracked down Hanks' son and learned about his life.  It's like a true life Citizen Kane.  I think this amazing short true comic story was what won the Eisner Award and it is one of the best comic stories I have read.  

Krasik finds the son and he is initially excited because it was an artist that he admired and wanted to champion as a forgotten genius who not appreciated in his own time.  He learns that Karasik was an awful human being who was a violent alcoholic and wife abuser.  His mother suffered a broken jaw that was never treated.  The sordid details are juxtaposed with panels from Hanks comic work. Karasik asks if there is any original comic art around.  His son says there were stacks of original comic art sitting all around the house.  But then when he died, his mother threw all of the original art away.

[hmendryk]

I recently picked up this piece by Adrian Syaf and Mark Morales at the New York Comic Con. I did not know of Syaf's work at the time and it was only when I later googled him that I found out about his being fired from Marvel for his use of Easter eggs with anti-Semitic and anti-Christian references. Or about his later statements about the incident that are also anti-Semitic. I have asked myself if I knew about this at the time would I have bought it, and to be honest I just do not know.

 

[artdealer]

49 minutes ago, hmendryk said:

I recently picked up this piece by Adrian Syaf and Mark Morales at the New York Comic Con. I did not know of Syaf's work at the time and it was only when I later googled him that I found out about his being fired from Marvel for his use of Easter eggs with anti-Semitic and anti-Christian references. Or about his later statements about the incident that are also anti-Semitic. I have asked myself if I knew about this at the time would I have bought it, and to be honest I just do not know.

 

That piece of art would be in the trash, if it were me.

[Peter L]

7 hours ago, hmendryk said:

I recently picked up this piece by Adrian Syaf and Mark Morales at the New York Comic Con. I did not know of Syaf's work at the time and it was only when I later googled him that I found out about his being fired from Marvel for his use of Easter eggs with anti-Semitic and anti-Christian references. Or about his later statements about the incident that are also anti-Semitic. I have asked myself if I knew about this at the time would I have bought it, and to be honest I just do not know.

 

Syaf's comments are actually much worse in the context of how he intended it and what is going on in his city and his country.  Syaf's hidden X-Men messages weren't just saying he doesn't like Jewish people and Christians or that he is against them politically.  It is much worse.

I recall that Harlan Ellison story "Hitler Painted Roses" and if someone normal would buy art painted by Hitler because they liked the art.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Peter L