ruined by a signature 2 2

[Brian Peck]

On 10/2/2018 at 8:02 AM, delekkerste said:

For me, and probably Brian Peck as well, the only thing that comes to mind can be Frank Thorne and the Marvel Feature v. 2 featuring Red Sonja #2 cover.  We were both at the Frank Thorne show at Illustration House a few years ago when the MF v. 2 #2 cover OA owner puts it in front of Frank to sign.  Frank (whose eyesight is not so good these days) immediately picks up a thick red marker and proceeds to sign the cover right over the artwork before anyone can stop him, as me and Brian look on in abject horror.  

I agree that was the most surreal comic art experiences. Besides Gene there was Terry and Nate, all our jaws dropped when we saw what Frank did. The guy who placed the Marvel Feature in front of Frank to sign didn't even react to what Frank had done. We all figured he might just be representing the buyer at the exhibit. No one thought to get a pic but "THORNE" was written in large letters right across it, covering about 1/4 of the art.

Zaddick who was curating the Thorne exhibit didn't see Frank signing over the cover. We all went up to Zaddick told him what we saw and said we decided we didn't want Frank to sign the artwork we bought. Later Zaddick talked with Frank and he did sign our artwork but in the area we designated.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Brian Peck

[Shemp]

On 10/2/2018 at 9:26 AM, Oddball said:

It boggles my mind that people even get covers signed again after the artist had already signed it when he created it. But whatever floats your boat.

A painting signed with a sharpie...WHY????? When it was already signed!!!

Completely ruins the piece to me and I can tolerate a lot of things.

[MagnusX]

Now that Netflix had officially cancel the Iron Fist Show
and the blatant signature,
I wonder how bad the final price will be for the consignor...

[Panelfan1]

5 hours ago, MagnusX said:

Now that Netflix had officially cancel the Iron Fist Show
and the blatant signature,
I wonder how bad the final price will be for the consignor...

What?! They cancelled it?! Yeah -  I genuinely was interested in seeing what happens next even though the show was weak.

[Peter L]

6 hours ago, MagnusX said:

Now that Netflix had officially cancel the Iron Fist Show
and the blatant signature,
I wonder how bad the final price will be for the consignor...

It was not a well received show.  Add to that the large amount of criticism it received for its racist undertones and for the miscasting of the main actor, it is a piece of art that advertises so much wrong about so much.

[▫️]

8 hours ago, Peter L said:

It was not a well received show.  Add to that the large amount of criticism it received for its racist undertones and for the miscasting of the main actor, it is a piece of art that advertises so much wrong about so much.

I haven’t followed the news too much but I’ve read two articles saying the show was racist for casting a white actor.  For portraying a character who is white in the comics. So what am I missing? If that’s all it is, it’s quite ridiculous.

[Panelfan1]

2 hours ago, Oddball said:

I haven’t followed the news too much but I’ve read two articles saying the show was racist for casting a white actor.  For portraying a character who is white in the comics. So what am I missing? If that’s all it is, it’s quite ridiculous.

People want to see racism in everything these days. The show featured characters of all ethnicities and none of the characters were racist as far as I could tell from watching.

[delekkerste]

Who was worse:

Finn Jones as Iron Fist in Iron Fist Seasons 1-2 and Defenders Season 1

Hayden Christensen as Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars Episodes I-III

Edited October 15, 2018 by delekkerste

[The Voord]

5 hours ago, Oddball said:

I haven’t followed the news too much but I’ve read two articles saying the show was racist for casting a white actor.  For portraying a character who is white in the comics. So what am I missing? If that’s all it is, it’s quite ridiculous.

Well they did cast a black actor as Nick Fury for the movies.  I understand that had something to do with a later comic-book series that I never read, but it was still a WTF moment for me.

Now, Doctor Who's just turned into a woman . . .

You should only fix things if they're broke.

Edited October 15, 2018 by The Voord

[zhamlau]

2 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Who was worse:

Finn Jones as Iron Fist in Iron Fist Seasons 1-2 and Defenders Season 1

Hayden Christensen as Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars Episodes I-III

 

Honestly II never found Finn Jones that bad compared to the rest of the stars on these shows. Pretty much everyone on Iron Fist was a below average actor given for lines. Most of the Netflix MCU shows aren't overly well acted, written, or directed. Charlie Cox, Vincent Donofrio, and most of the time Jon Berenthal (however you spell it) really seem to be the only characters/actors who really work. The rest are just bumbling through.

[Dokstarr]

7 hours ago, Oddball said:

I haven’t followed the news too much but I’ve read two articles saying the show was racist for casting a white actor.  For portraying a character who is white in the comics. So what am I missing? If that’s all it is, it’s quite ridiculous.

You aren't missing anything - nothing was racist. The show had some other problems with fight scenes, acting, etc., but racism wasn't one of them. It was overall the weakest show out of the main four. I thought Jessica Jones season 2 may have been worse than Iron Fist season 2, but Jessica Jones had some extremely great moments that make it much better overall.

[Overthetopinc]

On 10/7/2018 at 8:00 PM, Shemp said:

A painting signed with a sharpie...WHY????? When it was already signed!!!

Completely ruins the piece to me and I can tolerate a lot of things.

That is what happened to me! I bought this piece at SDCC back in 07'. I was shooting the sh*t with the Biz and he just grabbed this painting right from my hands and said here let me do this. In a split second he signed it before I even had a chance to stop him. I always wondered to this day why he did that.  Needless to say it never sat with me right and I parted with it for that reason.

[jaybuck43]

5 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Who was worse:

Finn Jones as Iron Fist in Iron Fist Seasons 1-2 and Defenders Season 1

Hayden Christensen as Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars Episodes I-III

*pushes nerd glasses up on nose*

Jake lloyd played Anakin in Episode 1.  Hayden was 2-3 (and sadly ghost edited into 6)

[JollyComics]

On 10/2/2018 at 5:46 PM, PhilipB2k17 said:

Yep. I got one, although the signature isn’t in a that bad a spot. I now ask artists to please sign in the margin or on the back. 

Assumed safely, it still looks like the original art to me even the signature is there.

[vodou]

2 hours ago, Overthetopinc said:

That is what happened to me! I bought this piece at SDCC back in 07'. I was shooting the sh*t with the Biz and he just grabbed this painting right from my hands and said here let me do this. In a split second he signed it before I even had a chance to stop him. I always wondered to this day why he did that.  Needless to say it never sat with me right and I parted with it for that reason.

I can well imagine how the piece wasn't the same for you after. If this is a glaze or fixative on top of the paint there is a decent chance that the marker signature and year could be removed without affecting the underlying painting. Whoever owns it today should at least ask a few restorers (comic art but also paper/museum folk) to get a professional opinion.

[Ironmandrd]

I've seen a number of pages (and own a few ) where Sal Buscema has signed within the art.  Ugh. 

[Peter L]

13 hours ago, Oddball said:

I haven’t followed the news too much but I’ve read two articles saying the show was racist for casting a white actor.  For portraying a character who is white in the comics. So what am I missing? If that’s all it is, it’s quite ridiculous.

It's actually a lot more complicated than that.  My hope is that this is written in a neutral way.

One of the criticisms that comicsgaters have of the new Kathleen Kennedy Star Wars movies are that they all seem to feature petite British women as the heroes, and who are able to be skilled warriors with little or no training, who can then beat up stormtroopers in hand to hand combat.  They feel that these main character female arcs show a development that are undeserved and are the poorly written trope of the "Mary Sue."  The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

Similar to this trope, there is another called the "White Savior trope" that features a main Caucasian protagonist who journeys into a foreign exotic locale, initially stumbles around the new land, but then quickly learns how to be the new master of this exotic locale, often gets the hottest ethnic woman, and teaches the locals how to become better at their own culture.  Some of the movies with this basic trope include The Last Samurai, Avatar, Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves, and The Wolverine among many others.  This trope mirrors the same criticisms that comicsgaters have with the new Star Wars movies, featuring a main character who unrealistically achieves power and greatness over what is portrayed as a "lesser people" based merely on gender or ethnicity.  

Bruce Lee popularized the martial arts craze during the early 70s.  He went to the tv networks and wanted to make a show.  The tv executives all turned him down, but then made what was basically his show with Caucasian actor David Carridine in yellowface.  So instead of prime electrifying Bruce Lee, we got something lesser based on cultural appropriation.  We got something not as good as we would have had.  We got Taco Bell instead of King Taco, or Panda Express instead of Din Tai Fung.  

Out of this martial arts popularity started by Bruce Lee, then stolen from him and culturally appropriated into something lesser, the character of Iron Fist was inspired. The original Iron Fist character was based on this white savior trope.  However like much of the comic work in earlier eras with pseudo-ethinic roots, it has not aged well (For example compare the stereotype comic source original Killmonger to the fantastic flim version).

Some may argue that the films/tv shows should follow the comics.  However, when we look at some examples, we can see how this attitude does not hold up to scrutiny.  For example, note that there was little uproar from these same critics when the Ancient One was whitewashed.  Dr. Strange director Scott Derekson said that he didn't know how to avoid making the Ancient One into a stereotypical Asian, and he didn't want to have a "Dragon Lady" so he whitewashed the character.  He and his four Caucasian male cowriters could not find a way to write an Asian character so they changed gender and whitewashed her.  Instead of hiring an Asian writer who had a different cultural experience who could help them write a story that takes place in Tibet, they chose to whitewash.  So then it seems those who think it's ridiculous to change characters for tv or films have little problem when characters are whtiewashed but not the other way around.  

Around this time, and in response to those who dismissed whitewashing, Marvels and Astro City writer Kurt Busiek wrote a convincing long form twitter post showing how Steve Ditko drew Dr. Strange as Asian illustrated with many examples.  So then for those who want comics accurate adaptations, then why no complaints about Dr. Strange being portrayed by a Caucasian actor?

If some want comics accurate film, note that there were no criticisms of Avengers 2 changing Amadeus Cho into his mother Helen Cho, who then lusted after Thor, which perpetuated an anti-Asian stereotype.  There was no outcry from those who want ethnically accurate comic movies when Ed Skrein was cast as the Asian American Major Ben Daimio in the new Hellboy movie.  Due to a lack of criticism when whitewashing occurs in comics movies, complaining about changing characters and races seems disingenuous.  

The successful Marvel films and TV have been made better with changes, such as Iris Alba as Hemidall, Vondie Curtis-Hall as Ben Urich, and Zazie Beetz as Domino.  Clearly they picked actors based on who they felt could perform the best and the end product benefited from that.  

Note that in Infinity War, Thanos' motivation was changed for the movie to make it better.  No one seemed to complain that the film had been changed from the source material.   Plots change, character motivations change, Avengers team members change, relationships between characters change and no one comments.  Why do some believe that race should be the one critical thing that cannot be changed from a comic to a tv show or film?  

When they were casting Iron Fist, a large number of comics artists and writers and actors pointed the problem with this racist trope in Iron Fist and that it could be avoided with the right star and showrunner.  Some of the more vocal included Eisner best writer winner Marjorie Liu, Gail Simone, and Agents of Shield stars Chloe Bennet, and Ming Na Wen.  The problem with the poor choice of out of shape Finn Jones was exacerbated when actor and experienced martial artist and half- Asian Lewis Tan (pictured next to Finn Jones below) revealed that he had auditioned for the role and was turned down because of his race.  Tan stole his scenes when he appeared as Zhou Cheng in an episode of Iron Fist and did all of his own stunts.  He also played Shatterstar in Deadpool 2 and is also in Into the Badlands, so he was not a total unknown.  Instead of choosing someone who had more talent and ability, the showrunners chose someone with no physical attributes or talent for the role who got the job solely based on race.

So that no one would miss the racist undertones, Marvel TV executive Jeph Loeb advertised the racism of Iron Fist by appearing in yellowface at the Marvel SDCC Iron Fist panel.  

So if they had cast an Asian-American actor, even a half Asian-American actor, or chosen to portray the modified story of one of the 23 out of 27 Iron Fists with an Asian background, Iron Fist would not have been based on a racist trope but could have been something different and better.  As it is, they chose someone lesser as a showrunner and lesser as a star who turned out a bad product.  Anyone who watches good martial arts in Asian movies could see how glaringly poor the choices that were made in Iron Fist and what it could have been.

The poorly signed and ruined original art is an advertisement of that opportunity cost.  

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Peter L

[Panelfan1]

4 hours ago, JollyComics said:

Assumed safely, it still looks like the original art to me even the signature is there.

For my part - I think the Sal signature looks good on this page.   It's not covering any important elements. It wouldn't bother me a bit to get art with a signature like this on it

[Dokstarr]

18 hours ago, Peter L said:

So that no one would miss the racist undertones, Marvel TV executive Jeph Loeb advertised the racism of Iron Fist by appearing in yellowface at the Marvel SDCC Iron Fist panel.  

Since Jeff Loeb is guilty of yellowface for wearing a gi, is every non-Asian person who cosplays as Ryu from Street Fighter also guilty of yellow-face?

Edited October 16, 2018 by Dokstarr

[▫️]

4 hours ago, Peter L said:

It's actually a lot more complicated than that.  My hope is that this is written in a neutral way.

One of the criticisms that comicsgaters have of the new Kathleen Kennedy Star Wars movies are that they all seem to feature petite British women as the heroes, and who are able to be skilled warriors with little or no training, who can then beat up stormtroopers in hand to hand combat.  They feel that these main character female arcs show a development that are undeserved and are the poorly written trope of the "Mary Sue."  The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

Similar to this trope, there is another called the "White Savior trope" that features a main Caucasian protagonist who journeys into a foreign exotic locale, initially stumbles around the new land, but then quickly learns how to be the new master of this exotic locale, often gets the hottest ethnic woman, and teaches the locals how to become better at their own culture.  Some of the movies with this basic trope include The Last Samurai, Avatar, Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves, and The Wolverine among many others.  This trope mirrors the same criticisms that comicsgaters have with the new Star Wars movies, featuring a main character who unrealistically achieves power and greatness over what is portrayed as a "lesser people" based merely on gender or ethnicity.  

Bruce Lee popularized the martial arts craze during the early 70s.  He went to the tv networks and wanted to make a show.  The tv executives all turned him down, but then made what was basically his show with Caucasian actor David Carridine in yellowface.  So instead of prime electrifying Bruce Lee, we got something lesser based on cultural appropriation.  We got something not as good as we would have had.  We got Taco Bell instead of King Taco, or Panda Express instead of Din Tai Fung.  

Out of this martial arts popularity started by Bruce Lee, then stolen from him and culturally appropriated into something lesser, the character of Iron Fist was inspired. The original Iron Fist character was based on this white savior trope.  However like much of the comic work in earlier eras with pseudo-ethinic roots, it has not aged well (For example compare the stereotype comic source original Killmonger to the fantastic flim version).

Some may argue that the films/tv shows should follow the comics.  However, when we look at some examples, we can see how this attitude does not hold up to scrutiny.  For example, note that there was little uproar from these same critics when the Ancient One was whitewashed.  Dr. Strange director Scott Derekson said that he didn't know how to avoid making the Ancient One into a stereotypical Asian, and he didn't want to have a "Dragon Lady" so he whitewashed the character.  He and his four Caucasian male cowriters could not find a way to write an Asian character so they changed gender and whitewashed her.  Instead of hiring an Asian writer who had a different cultural experience who could help them write a story that takes place in Tibet, they chose to whitewash.  So then it seems those who think it's ridiculous to change characters for tv or films have little problem when characters are whtiewashed but not the other way around.  

Around this time, and in response to those who dismissed whitewashing, Marvels and Astro City writer Kurt Busiek wrote a convincing long form twitter post showing how Steve Ditko drew Dr. Strange as Asian illustrated with many examples.  So then for those who want comics accurate adaptations, then why no complaints about Dr. Strange being portrayed by a Caucasian actor?

If some want comics accurate film, note that there were no criticisms of Avengers 2 changing Amadeus Cho into his mother Helen Cho, who then lusted after Thor, which perpetuated an anti-Asian stereotype.  There was no outcry from those who want ethnically accurate comic movies when Ed Skrein was cast as the Asian American Major Ben Daimio in the new Hellboy movie.  Due to a lack of criticism when whitewashing occurs in comics movies, complaining about changing characters and races seems disingenuous.  

The successful Marvel films and TV have been made better with changes, such as Iris Alba as Hemidall, Vondie Curtis-Hall as Ben Urich, and Zazie Beetz as Domino.  Clearly they picked actors based on who they felt could perform the best and the end product benefited from that.  

Note that in Infinity War, Thanos' motivation was changed for the movie to make it better.  No one seemed to complain that the film had been changed from the source material.   Plots change, character motivations change, Avengers team members change, relationships between characters change and no one comments.  Why do some believe that race should be the one critical thing that cannot be changed from a comic to a tv show or film?  

When they were casting Iron Fist, a large number of comics artists and writers and actors pointed the problem with this racist trope in Iron Fist and that it could be avoided with the right star and showrunner.  Some of the more vocal included Eisner best writer winner Marjorie Liu, Gail Simone, and Agents of Shield stars Chloe Bennet, and Ming Na Wen.  The problem with the poor choice of out of shape Finn Jones was exacerbated when actor and experienced martial artist and half- Asian Lewis Tan (pictured next to Finn Jones below) revealed that he had auditioned for the role and was turned down because of his race.  Tan stole his scenes when he appeared as Zhou Cheng in an episode of Iron Fist and did all of his own stunts.  He also played Shatterstar in Deadpool 2 and is also in Into the Badlands, so he was not a total unknown.  Instead of choosing someone who had more talent and ability, the showrunners chose someone with no physical attributes or talent for the role who got the job solely based on race.

So that no one would miss the racist undertones, Marvel TV executive Jeph Loeb advertised the racism of Iron Fist by appearing in yellowface at the Marvel SDCC Iron Fist panel.  

So if they had cast an Asian-American actor, even a half Asian-American actor, or chosen to portray the modified story of one of the 23 out of 27 Iron Fists with an Asian background, Iron Fist would not have been based on a racist trope but could have been something different and better.  As it is, they chose someone lesser as a showrunner and lesser as a star who turned out a bad product.  Anyone who watches good martial arts in Asian movies could see how glaringly poor the choices that were made in Iron Fist and what it could have been.

The poorly signed and ruined original art is an advertisement of that opportunity cost. 

As far as the Iron Fist story, despite the first season not being very good (I haven’t watched the 2nd) I’m glad they kept his race true to the source material.  In your examples where race changes were made from the source, of course I have issues with those along with changes to classic storylines. That’s just me, I would prefer no major changes be made to any of it. I’m also one of those guys that hates watching movies based on novels I love.  Rarely am I satisfied. It actually goes further with me. Not only do I prefer race unchanged but I’d even like the actors to resemble who they are portraying a little. One of my favorite Marvel characters is Jim Rhodes. He is Iron Man for me, not Tony. (The first Iron Man issue I picked up was when Rhodey took over the book). And Marvel got two fantastic actors portraying him that didn’t look like him. What was worse was they didn’t even carry the same personality. Probably because he is considered a supporting character. OK, maybe I’m cuckoo but I’m not saying I’m right. That’s just me.