For the love of PGX 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

40 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

Where does the 1-5% come from?  For example, if I look at the census, I see that roughly 500 copies of Batman #24 (the proposal issue) are on record.  But I have to imagine the print run must have been somewhere above 100k resulting in roughly only 0.5% being graded.  And that's considering that Batman #24 is a minor key of sorts.  Batman #25 for example only has 33 books on census.

1-5% is my own estimate, from being on convention floors 15-20 times a year, and dealing with CGC on a regular basis. 

I see a few dealers with no CGC books, but most dealers I see have some, while a handful have mostly. I've rarely seen any dealer with nothing but slabs, but they do occasionally exist. I set up at a convention once with nothing but slabs, about 10 boxes of hardcovers, and a single short box of raw books. 

I don't use print run estimates or census numbers to gauge CGC participation, as those numbers fluctuate wildly. And I don't refer to single books in that estimate. I mean "of the percentage of back issues sold to, and/or dollars spent by, collectors." Obviously, 99.9% (or more) of new issues aren't being slabbed, and perhaps 50-99% of new issues are sold to readers, not collectors. 

And as I mentioned, that number could be much, much lower, and probably is.

Edited October 16, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the way...I imagine it is functionally impossible to go to a convention and be totally unaware of the existence of slabbing in 2018.

However...

I believe it is not only possible, but is, in fact, likely, that one could visit any number of local comic stores around the world, and never see a single slab, ever.

Why?

Lots of theories, but the main one is that store owners don't want to have their customers question their grading, and a CGC slab can do that quite effectively, simply by its mere presence. And while that may not be true of most retailers, it is most certainly true of some.

It's just not something that retailers get into. It's most certainly mainly an online phenomenon, followed by conventions.

[Nico Esq]

1 hour ago, Keys_Collector said:

Because welovecomics decides to be sponsored and have a biased opinion doesn't mean that is the overall thoughts of the community.  I get doing your own thing but going out of your way to go against the tide when there's a flood doesn't mean you are helping anyone and its only contributing to unethical practices.  

That's a trash youtube channel anyway.  It makes sense that they would be sponsored by PGX.  They have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.  No informative, not entertaining.  I enjoy ComicTom101 and the guys from CBSI / Unpressable Defects.  Note that anyone who is knowledgable about the industry may have selective complaints here and there about CGC or CBCS, but that they all concur on one point - CGC is the gold standard and PGX is trash.  

[Unstoppablejayd]

If you are afraid of a lower grade, and understand the perception of PGX- why not just crack it and sell it raw so people can make there own judgment on grade? On a super Key that is what I would do. 

[KEY ISSUES Comics]

3 hours ago, marmat said:

The risk is it could come back from CGC  Purple with piece/pages missing

And for that very same reason I would NEVER buy a PGX book of that value. Better to bite the bullet and get it graded by CGC.

[newshane]

Buy whatever you want. 

Just don't expect me to buy it from you when you get ready to sell. 

 

[1Cool]

I don't see CGC letting this thread go much further.  Based on the fairly limited info I've gathered there is a clear advantage to sending high priced key books to PGX in terms of getting the most money out of a book.  If PGX has a 25% discount compared to CGC in terms of realized price (probably close if you average a bunch of key books) then if you can get a 6.0 from PGX and a 4.5 from CGC then you will be fair ahead if you go the PGX route.  I don't know statistics about how long key books take to sell in PGX slab compared to CGC but I'd assume it would take longer but in this market I'd think the key book will sell quick in either slab.  I've never slabbed a book with PGX so I'm simply going off what I see in the market. 

Now that I think about it which would you rather be selling a X-Men 150 CG 9.4 or a PGX 9.8?  From a potential cash price I'd think the 9.8 tag alone would get more then a 9.4 any day.

[Buzzetta]

I have mixed feelings when it comes to PGX but not because I feel that every comic book they grade is inferior to CGC.  I do not respect their grade due to widespread inconsistency. 

My PGX Hulk 181 was once a 6.5. After it was pressed it came back from CGC as a 9.0.  NOw, I bought the book because I felt it was far stronger than the 6.5 that PGX assigned it and I rolled the dice and bought it to press and reslab.  However, I have seen 9.8's that are by no means a 9.8.  I have never encountered a PGX book that was missing pages or had anything drastically omitted from the grading notes.  Therefore it is the wild inconsistency that troubles me.  I rarely buy a PGX book unless I can see it up close or have an oversized scan of the book. 

[mattn792]

51 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

 

I think for OP, it's a Schroedinger's Cat scenario.  Presently, he is unaware as to the accuracy of PGX's grading and restoration check.  He could re-sub to CGC and the book could come back with a blue label or a purple label.  The book in the PGX slab is akin to the cat in the box...no one knows which of the two scenarios will play out.  The book in essence occupies both...it is both the cat being dead AND alive at the same time.

The fear is that it could come back purple which would devalue the book when compared to a "blue" PGX label.  So does OP keep the book as is, blissfully unaware and believing the book is whole and unrestored?  Or do they sub to CGC and run the risk of this bubble they've created being shattered and finding out the book is faulty/defective?

Fantastic Four #1

CGC NG

Graders Notes:  Counterfeit, book appears to be printed on some type of cracker.  Inedible due to age.

[miraclemet]

@tabcom

Recent sales... Avengers 4 PGX 9.4 sold for $6k. 

GPA for a CGC 9.4 is $13k, and thats more than a year old, and a 9.2 (Lee SS) sold for $13k more recently so the 9.4 is probably work more like $16k

So that's $10k left on the table (assuming it's ACTUALLY a 9.4, which no way it is...)

[miraclemet]

Ironman 1 in PGX 9.8 had the same thing... sold for $5500, while a CGC 9.8 last sold for $19k. 

[miraclemet]

FF 52 in PGX 9.0 sold for $3700

 

GPA has the same grade CGC book selling for $6400

[justafan]

2 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

FF 52 in PGX 9.0 sold for $3700

 

GPA has the same grade CGC book selling for $6400

What I'm getting out of this thread is buying PGX is a great way to get a key book for a lower price with a bit of risk.  At 50% of the GPA price some books may be worth the risk/reward curve if the book at least appears to be close to the assigned grade but possibly restored AND IF the market for a restored book is roughly at 50% the unrestored price as it seems to be with AF15's with A or B restoration.  YMMV.

For the OP, instead of having the book cracked out, just submit it as is to CCS and get their opinion on it.  They'll evaluate it inside the PGX slab and if they detect something, they will tell email/call you to explain what they found and ask what you'd like to have done with it: return back to you, recommendations on grading or restoration removal, etc.  If they don't detect anything it's up to you if you want them to go further by having it cracked out for further inspection or possibly pressing.

I'd be more concerned about older books for restoration issues but moderns may be a safer bet.  I have a copper age ASM PGX 9.9 with White pages that just looks like a really nice CGC 9.8.  I won't crack it out for the same reason I wouldn't crack out a CGC 9.9 or 10.0.  Chances are neither would achieve a 9.9 or 10.0 on a resub.  I bought that book strictly for the novelty of the label as I find it both cool and funny owning a PGX 9.9.  At the time I bought it, if it were in a CGC 9.9 I would have had to pay 3x the price.  Of course it could have some restoration, trimming, or missing pieces from the interior, I'll never know until I get it cracked out but I don't really care because I'm not planning on selling it.  Until then, I'll just giggle every time I see it in the middle of a blue sea of CGC 9.8's in the CGC box. 

 

[comix4fun]

24 minutes ago, justafan said:

What I'm getting out of this thread is buying PGX is a great way to get a key book for a lower price with a bit of risk.  At 50% of the GPA price some books may be worth the risk/reward curve if the book at least appears to be close to the assigned grade but possibly restored AND IF the market for a restored book is roughly at 50% the unrestored price as it seems to be with AF15's with A or B restoration.  YMMV.

For the OP, instead of having the book cracked out, just submit it as is to CCS and get their opinion on it.  They'll evaluate it inside the PGX slab and if they detect something, they will tell email/call you to explain what they found and ask what you'd like to have done with it: return back to you, recommendations on grading or restoration removal, etc.  If they don't detect anything it's up to you if you want them to go further by having it cracked out for further inspection or possibly pressing.

I'd be more concerned about older books for restoration issues but moderns may be a safer bet.  I have a copper age ASM PGX 9.9 with White pages that just looks like a really nice CGC 9.8.  I won't crack it out for the same reason I wouldn't crack out a CGC 9.9 or 10.0.  Chances are neither would achieve a 9.9 or 10.0 on a resub.  I bought that book strictly for the novelty of the label as I find it both cool and funny owning a PGX 9.9.  At the time I bought it, if it were in a CGC 9.9 I would have had to pay 3x the price.  Of course it could have some restoration, trimming, or missing pieces from the interior, I'll never know until I get it cracked out but I don't really care because I'm not planning on selling it.  Until then, I'll just giggle every time I see it in the middle of a blue sea of CGC 9.8's in the CGC box. 

 

That needed the big font....

[comix4fun]

4 hours ago, tabcom said:

Here is the type of intel I'm looking for....

 

By comparison, the PGX 8.5 sold for half as much as the CGC 8.5 12 month average. The PGX 8.5 sold for about 20% more than the CGC 7.5 12 month average.

Also, the PGX sale was a 'Best offer accepted' listing.

That PGX X-men 1 actually sold for $15,500.00 

So the PGX 8.5 sold for the same price basically as the last CGC 7.5. 

 

[Jeffro.]

6 hours ago, tabcom said:

For the love of PGX

 

[Kahnadah]

8 hours ago, tabcom said:

Over the years I've read countless posts describing how horrible PGX grading is and seen visual evidence to that effect. 

I agree, PGX grading lacks the sophistication of CGC and they constantly over grade.

My question is, 'Outside the esteem virtual halls of the CGC Chat rooms, does the comic collecting rabble discount the value of PGX grades?'

I'm of the opinion that they buy the label and not the book.

I have a FF#1 that is a PGX 5.5.

There is no way I'm going to send it to CGC to get a 4.5 label. 

 

I don't buy comics anymore, but when I did I avoided PGX like plague. They don't catch resto, trimming and colour touch (or maybe they do but don't care, I don't know) so as an "investment" they're useless. PGX 6 would be to me a CGC 3. And I'd make my bid/offer accordingly. I'd pay more for the CGC security rather than take a punt on PGX getting it right one-in-a-thousand. And the Fantastic Four #1, I'd bet real money you'd get more for the unrestored CGC 4.5 than the PGX mystery box 5.5.

[Tony S]

4 hours ago, comix4fun said:

That PGX X-men 1 actually sold for $15,500.00 

So the PGX 8.5 sold for the same price basically as the last CGC 7.5. 

 

Sometimes it works out for people.  A few weeks ago sent in a X-Men 1 PGX graded 8.5 to CGC. It got an 8.0.  My client paid - as you noted - about the 7.5 price. Because X-Men 1 makes a huge jump in price from 7.5 to 8.0, he made serious $$. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Tony S

[romanheart]

The threads you miss when you've been away.

Sadly you can judge PGX like a raw by front and back page only. Once it's out of the case their opinion no longer matters. Their standards by my recollection have a lot to do with eye appeal and not strict docking for various flaws by quantity or size as CGC strictly states.

[Tony S]

5 hours ago, justafan said:

What I'm getting out of this thread is buying PGX is a great way to get a key book for a lower price with a bit of risk.  At 50% of the GPA price some books may be worth the risk/reward curve if the book at least appears to be close to the assigned grade but possibly restored AND IF the market for a restored book is roughly at 50% the unrestored price as it seems to be with AF15's with A or B restoration. 

 

Restored books don't follow a "50% of unrestored" price rule.  There is a curve, based on condition.   Restored books on key issues tend to bring around 1/2 in LOW GRADE. But when you get to high grade books, the percent that restored brings versus unrestored starts to shrink drastically. 

In 2011, AF 15 in CGC 9.6 set a sales record for Silver age books at 1.1 million dollars. Four months ago a Slight Professional restored AF 15 sold for $86,000. That less than 10%