Heritage Fall Signature Auction 5 5

[sagii]

6 hours ago, tth2 said:

Doesn't seem like it to me.  The items I was following on Hakes all went well below what they would've sold for on Heritage.

Unless the consignor is Steve Geppi, I simply can't understand why anyone would consign comics or comic OA to Hakes. 

I have reasoned also that the comics must belong to Geppi, making money on at least some of his items since most of the killer stuff has been donated to Congress

[comicjack]

6 minutes ago, sagii said:

I have reasoned also that the comics must belong to Geppi, making money on at least some of his items since most of the killer stuff has been donated to Congress

I'm sure you are right about that 

[GoldenPRGuy]

So here is my question for today's auction. Suzie 63 (labeled Edgar Church) is on the block along with all the other Mile High Suzies. It's a 9.0 with lower page quality than the others. But here's the thing... I own the Church copy of 63, 9.4 with White Pages. I know there were a few doubles out there, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't one of them. I've reviewed the original list from Chuck and there is only one. I wonder how CGC goes about giving out these designations. Thoughts?

 

 

[Sqeggs]

4 minutes ago, GoldenPRGuy said:

So here is my question for today's auction. Suzie 63 (labeled Edgar Church) is on the block along with all the other Mile High Suzies. It's a 9.0 with lower page quality than the others. But here's the thing... I own the Church copy of 63, 9.4 with White Pages. I know there were a few doubles out there, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't one of them. I've reviewed the original list from Chuck and there is only one. I wonder how CGC goes about giving out these designations. Thoughts?

 

 

Opened ye olde canne of wormes!

I've had my doubts about a number of the "Church" copies HA has auctioned in recent months.  I raised the issue in a thread -- now long buried -- with respect to mid-grade raw books that seemed unlikely to me to have been ever owned by Edgar.

I think the answer to your question is that CGC has been going by provenance for the books that lack any Church markings. HA received a very large consignment of these books, sent some of them to CGC with the assurance that they were Church copies, and CGC accepted the provenance.

Now a couple of caveats:  Many of the books from this consignment (including most or all of the most important books) clearly are authentic Church copies.  Others might well be, although I don't think we have anything other than the consignor's word for it. 

But I'm pretty sure that other books have been given an incorrect attribution.

When I raised this issue in the other thread, practically nobody responded either out of respect for the consignor or because of indifference.

When I've raised this issue with people off-line, the responses I've received have generally been some variety of, "Eh, none of the iffy books are really key books, so who cares?"

The bottom line for me is that as a result of how this matter was handled by HA and CGC, there will now be an unknown number of books out there with Church labels that actually aren't Edgar's books.

If anyone else has any thoughts or -- better! -- knowledge of what's going on, I'd very much like to hear it,.

[Sqeggs]

One other point:  In the case of your book, the new, probably bogus, Church copy will likely have some adverse effect on the value of your legit Church copy. 

[Mmehdy]

Let the real bargains begin, over 1000 lots today  and some great stuff out there, the auction is almost 10M, my preduction today is close to 11M, several books I have never seen before. On the Church mixup, when you are buying that many comic books you are gonna forget what you got, it does not appear given the condition some of the books were never opened...mixups do occur.

[telerites]

4 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

Opened ye olde canne of wormes!

I've had my doubts about a number of the "Church" copies HA has auctioned in recent months.  I raised the issue in a thread -- now long buried -- with respect to mid-grade raw books that seemed unlikely to me to have been ever owned by Edgar.

I think the answer to your question is that CGC has been going by provenance for the books that lack any Church markings. HA received a very large consignment of these books, sent some of them to CGC with the assurance that they were Church copies, and CGC accepted the provenance.

Now a couple of caveats:  Many of the books from this consignment (including most or all of the most important books) clearly are authentic Church copies.  Others might well be, although I don't think we have anything other than the consignor's word for it. 

But I'm pretty sure that other books have been given an incorrect attribution.

When I raised this issue in the other thread, practically nobody responded either out of respect for the consignor or because of indifference.

When I've raised this issue with people off-line, the responses I've received have generally been some variety of, "Eh, none of the iffy books are really key books, so who cares?"

The bottom line for me is that as a result of how this matter was handled by HA and CGC, there will now be an unknown number of books out there with Church labels that actually aren't Edgar's books.

If anyone else has any thoughts or -- better! -- knowledge of what's going on, I'd very much like to hear it,.

One of my Nedor Thrillings is labelled as the Church copy and it is likely not.  It has been several years when I saw another graded copy at auction as the Church.  I didn't think multiple copies of books were in the collection but I asked here and it confirmed my thoughts.  I think it was the #73 book since there is a GPA sale of an 8.5 MH copy but I also have #76 as the MH copy.  GPA shows that sale which is most likely when I bought it.  

Looking at HA's site, both of my books were bought raw (not by me) and subbed at some point (not by me).  Both listings say "Based on this copy's provenance, we think it is probably the Mile High copy. ..From the John McLaughlin Collection."

I have subbed books using verification from my purchases off of sites like HA, Worldwide Comics, CC, Metro and CGC has accepted that as enough.  It does add suspicion to the verification process.  

I am showing both books and both may be incorrectly labelled.  BTW, I also have ped copy of my National run that is likely not correct.  I would have to go back and look to see which one - it is not a MH but another ped, I think the Penn. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[batman_fan]

10 hours ago, tth2 said:

Doesn't seem like it to me.  The items I was following on Hakes all went well below what they would've sold for on Heritage.

Unless the consignor is Steve Geppi, I simply can't understand why anyone would consign comics or comic OA to Hakes. 

I know the model I won on Hakes came from the bid I placed the day it opened.  I didn't really look again until I got the winning email.

[Mmehdy]

Just now, batman_fan said:

I know the model I won on Hakes came from the bid I placed the day it opened.  I didn't really look again until I got the winning email.

we now know were the bargains  are ...so keep it quite...LOL

[Ricksneatstuff]

Also, most of the Peanuts pieces were much softer in this auction than they have been the last year or so. I should have pulled the trigger on one or two.

[MrBedrock]

8 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

True, but isn't understanding bidding rationale more of an art than a science?  For instance, what's esoteric to one collector may be squarely in another's wheelhouse, and likewise, what seems insignificant today may not be tomorrow.  

There are collectors who buy to complete runs, or seek specific characters, genres, topical interests, specific artists, quality or types of art, certain grades (high & low), first issues, origins or appearances, ...you name it.  This may be more true for GA than other eras, but I sure wouldn't bet on it.  As final hammer prices go, to me they seemed stronger in some areas than others (butthurt-wise, not so much, which may be why I didn't get shut out).  

The only thing I can say with certainty about any timed auction is that it always comes down to two people and how much more one bidder is willing to pay to snag a trophy than the nearest under-bidder. 

Richard, you're one of the savviest guys I know, so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we're both looking at auction results through the most tactically efficient lenses imaginable. 

Cat, with all due respect obviously you are the very definition of oddball.

In the past couple of years there have been so many occurrences of some low grade oddball book showing up on eBay and selling for 10, 15 or 20 times expected price...and then that anomalous sale becomes the guideline by which all subsequent sales are measured. My comment was directed not at what is oddball vs. mainstream, but at the process by which the hobby now seems to arrive at prices for items that come up for sale irregularly.

 

[MrBedrock]

1 hour ago, Mmehdy said:

we now know were the bargains  are ...so keep it quite...LOL

quite what?

[batman_fan]

40 minutes ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

Also, most of the Peanuts pieces were much softer in this auction than they have been the last year or so. I should have pulled the trigger on one or two.

I thought the prices were just right. 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by batman_fan

[Dr. Love]

on the scoreboard with the Badge of Justice 2 - battling with one other guy, maybe Ed? Tony?  somebody

glad to have this quirky Giordano, I know the book is out there but comes along so rarely, at least in my circles

[Cat-Man_America]

29 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

Cat, with all due respect obviously you are the very definition of oddball.

In the past couple of years there have been so many occurrences of some low grade oddball book showing up on eBay and selling for 10, 15 or 20 times expected price...and then that anomalous sale becomes the guideline by which all subsequent sales are measured. My comment was directed not at what is oddball vs. mainstream, but at the process by which the hobby now seems to arrive at prices for items that come up for sale irregularly.

 

Richard, we're all oddballs when it comes to speculating on comics.  The process stinks at the fish head (third party pressing & grading) down to last-man-standing auction house bidding, deep pocket buyer's premiums (that influence realized values) and selective GPA scorecard keeping.  

In fact, the idea of mainstream is crazy in the current marketplace! If the oddball book gets a good mainstream press by Matt before being graded and auctioned then the final realized price has gotta be fake news. 

 

[batman_fan]

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Cat, with all due respect obviously you are the very definition of oddball.

In the past couple of years there have been so many occurrences of some low grade oddball book showing up on eBay and selling for 10, 15 or 20 times expected price...and then that anomalous sale becomes the guideline by which all subsequent sales are measured. My comment was directed not at what is oddball vs. mainstream, but at the process by which the hobby now seems to arrive at prices for items that come up for sale irregularly.

 

Please dear god tell me you are not just realizing the bold statement above!

 

Cat, regardless of how big an oddball you are, we still love you 

[adamstrange]

57 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

on the scoreboard with the Badge of Justice 2 - battling with one other guy, maybe Ed? Tony?  somebody

glad to have this quirky Giordano, I know the book is out there but comes along so rarely, at least in my circles

That's a cool motorcycle cover reminiscent of Gangbusters 4, though not a swipe.

 

[adamstrange]

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

the process by which the hobby now seems to arrive at prices for items that come up for sale irregularly.

It appears to involve a significant number of simians and dartboards.

[Ricksneatstuff]

2 hours ago, batman_fan said:

I thought the prices were just right. 

 

I was the under bidder on the top one

Congratulations!!!

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

 

In the past couple of years there have been so many occurrences of some low grade oddball book showing up on eBay and selling for 10, 15 or 20 times expected price...and then that anomalous sale becomes the guideline by which all subsequent sales are measured. 

 

Would this book be an example of what you are talking about:

Sold for something like $660, although I believe the CGC 9.4 graded copy of this same book sold recently on one of the auction sites that I can't seem to find anymore.  

Not sure if this copy sold for a soft price or a high price since there's only 4 copies that's been graded so far, with the remaining 2 copies in the lower grade range.  Definitely a nice GGA cover from my personal point of view in terms of the cheerleader.