Marvel Developing Winter Soldier-Falcon Limited Series for Disney’s Streaming Service 3 3

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

22 hours ago, adampasz said:

• The John Walker arc isn't landing for me. Sam and Bucky spent the first 3 episodes killing people indiscriminately, and faced no consequences. Yet suddenly the show makes a big hoopla about Walker killing one of the bad guys in an act of revenge for his friend's death. Is it only bad because he was caught on camera by dozens of bystanders?
• I'll admit I was tired when I watched, but I didn't really get the details Walker's punishment. They stripped him of being Captain America, but he gets to keep his military rank and loses his pension? I feel like the show is trying to make some points, but it's very muddled.

There's killing in the heat of battle, and then there's killing a subdued opponent that isn't actively trying to harm you. Big difference.

Regarding Walker's punishment, he's a soldier. His position is that he did everything that he was asked to do as a soldier. But they gave him a (if I remember the dialogue correctly) "less-than-honorable discharge." From his perspective, he was betrayed by the country that he chose to serve.

[lordbyroncomics]

With respect, I think people arguing about the physics of the shield are suffering from the same kind of logic as people who don't like Superman's trunks outside of his pants because it's "unrealistic". Look- NONE OF IT IS "REALISTIC". Once you pick at one thing, you open up the floodgates for us to go down the line of all the unrealistic elements. This is a fantasy escapist show and the source material is decades-old stuff designed to be digested by little kids, no matter how much rationalizing comic fans want to do about how older fans liked it, too. It's fantasy. None of it would work, you either enjoy it for what it is or be offended by how science isn't accurately represented in it. Don't choose the latter. 

[letsgrumble]

Just fix the damned boat already - where are the Wakandians when you need them?

[drotto]

24 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

There's killing in the heat of battle, and then there's killing a subdued opponent that isn't actively trying to harm you. Big difference.

Regarding Walker's punishment, he's a soldier. His position is that he did everything that he was asked to do as a soldier. But they gave him a (if I remember the dialogue correctly) "less-than-honorable discharge." From his perspective, he was betrayed by the country that he chose to serve.

They also stressed this was the most sever penalty they could give him short of imprisonment.  He was discharged, stripped of rank, stripped of pension and all vet benefits.  For a career soldier he has basically been stripped of his identity as well as his livelihood. 

[TupennyConan]

23 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

but it's insulting

Few points of view, opinions, statements, assertions, or actions can avoid this result. Perhaps none can. 

I suppose this result my be the terminus of progress: a paranoid, frozen static, all encompassing, chilling effect or a kind of cultural living death.

[lordbyroncomics]

1 minute ago, TupennyConan said:

Few points of view, opinions, statements, assertions, or actions can avoid this result. Perhaps none can. 

I suppose this result my be the terminus of progress: a paranoid, frozen static, all encompassing, chilling effect or a kind of cultural living death.

That's different when you're dealing with perception and subjective things. Marvel proudly declaring the progress of a Black Captain America- which, we all know is temporary- that's what's insulting. Not to you perhaps, not to me. But the short-term, mainstream longing mindset of Marvel Editors was insulting to the kind of progressive overtures they claim to want to make. 

A cultural living death... wow. Well, it depends on which culture is experiencing that living death and what the side effects are from that. Which is another discussion.

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, jharvey said:

Oh come on. It is so completely impossible that it just looked stupid. At least if a super-powered being did it, you could attribute it to the super-power. With a normal human doing it, trying to maintain the suspense of disbelief was really tough.

Again, Steve Rogers being a super soldier we know gives him super strength, lets him survive falls from great heights, etc. But never is it stated this super soldier strength is what allows him to throw and catch the shield. Perhaps it allows him to throw it with greater force and release the shield with greater force and velocity which means it would return to him with a comparable velocity, but nothing says that he needed to be a super soldier to be able to throw it and catch it with any amount of force and velocity.

I myself was unsure of how it worked, and never really questioned it, though there are instances in the comics of normal human beings wielding the Shield. When we see John Walker wielding the Shield before he takes the serum, that establishes that you don't have to be a super soldier to throw and catch it, which makes sense. If a normal human throws the shield with a force and velocity that he or she is comfortable with, than according to classical mechanics in physics, he or she should have no problem catching it given the force and velocity it had upon being thrown, especially after it loses energy from ricocheting off one or more objects.

Now, if Thanos threw the Shield and Sam was able to catch it no problem, then that would be incredulous. But it's not impossible for a normal human to catch the Shield if it's thrown with the force of a normal human being. The same goes with a spear, a baseball, or any other human thrown projectile.

Edited April 18, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[TupennyConan]

7 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

But the short-term, mainstream longing mindset of Marvel Editors was insulting to the kind of progressive overtures they claim to want to make. 

This sounds like a kind of Blaxploitation argument -- that is, making use of current political or social attitudes in pursuit of the fast nickel while never letting on that that's the goal  Such an argument may be leveled against Black Panther -- the character from the comics or the movies [& the movie] -- or against countless other historical or contemporary commercial examples. 

[Bird]

1 hour ago, TupennyConan said:

Well said. This seems to be precisely what the creative team behind the show intends to demonstrate by the show itself. In this sense, therefore, the show itself breaks the fourth wall in pursuit of a real life political objective.  

all portrayals of reality are political, whether they choose to challenge the status quo or ignore it...either choice is political. There is no apolitical art, this is just more obvious due to it being Captain America related.

I think the show is about Americans more than a viewpoint of any one political party. The title characters are a black American and a time displaced Brooklyn guy turned assassin spy; it is gonna get messy. We have good people in the show reflecting many different American viewpoints, and there are some bad people too. And then there is John Walker. It leans the same way you would expect a Captain America-themed story to go, at least the ones I read in the 80s and 90s...what is patriotism and how can it be expressed when you disagree with others. It obviously leans one way more than another but it isn't preachy I don't think and the characters and themes require the politics to an extent. 

On a train the whistle stays the same for the engineer but you hear the pitch change as it goes by if you are standing on the road. Both experiences are truths and only by seeing both experiences from another viewpoint can we see more of what is happening.

[drotto]

8 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

That's different when you're dealing with perception and subjective things. Marvel proudly declaring the progress of a Black Captain America- which, we all know is temporary- that's what's insulting. Not to you perhaps, not to me. But the short-term, mainstream longing mindset of Marvel Editors was insulting to the kind of progressive overtures they claim to want to make. 

A cultural living death... wow. Well, it depends on which culture is experiencing that living death and what the side effects are from that. Which is another discussion.

One of the other issues is they are now retroactively creating an issue when there was none hinted at before in the MCU.  Sam's best friends are (were) Steve and Bucky, both white.  They both felt he was worthy.  The US government has let him basically run his own strike force, using expensive one of a kind tech, and never showed any care what his race was.  The only reason he was not captain America is because he decided not to take the mantel, because he thought he was not worthy.  The government only picked a new one, because he essentially turned it down. Race is a topic that is worth exploring, but as it relates to Sam, they have never established that his race has ever held him back.

 

Now I find Isaiah's story horrible, and feasible in the time period he was talking about, it has never been a hinted that Sam faced anything near that level.  They did give him a few scenes that were meant to establish some of this, (being the bank loan scene and when he was stopped in the neighborhood) but those seem to be the exception rather than the rule.  Other than those, he seems to be very well known and respected. The rest is based on Isaiah's experiences, not Sam's. While these are detestable, Isaiah's experiences do not transfer over to Sam, and they are implying that race relations and perceptions are static over the last 70 years.

[Gatsby77]

21 minutes ago, TupennyConan said:

This sounds like a kind of Blaxploitation argument -- that is, making use of current political or social attitudes in pursuit of the fast nickel while never letting on that that's the goal  Such an argument may be leveled against Black Panther -- the character from the comics or the movies [& the movie] -- or against countless other historical or contemporary commercial examples. 

But...Steve Rogers already gave Sam the shield in Endgame - basically annointing him his successor.

Any outrage at - or accusations of -- "Marvel's only doing this for political correctness" belonged to *that* movie - not this show, which is just filling in the backstory of Sam assuming the mantle he was already given.

Similar to Nick Fury or Johnny Storm being black, there's nothing that says a modern Captain America (or even modern James Bond) can't be black -- or even Native American.

[Bird]

1 minute ago, drotto said:

One of the other issues is they are now retroactively creating an issue when there was none hinted at before in the MCU.  

I think the movies left us with Sam being the de facto Cap (Rogers gives him the shield) and that is where the show will end, Sam being Cap. I think the tv show is an attempt to actually answer the questions that may arise if this were in fact to happen. How would being Captain America impact an African American? Sort of more "real world" than the movies so we get more realistically into the themes, same with Zemo and his exterminated country and the blip and the Flagsmashers...handled quickly in the MCU but here on tv we look deeper into what the impact of the movie events might be. Then we go back to the movies with Sam all decked out in Red White and Blue.

[Gatsby77]

4 minutes ago, drotto said:

One of the other issues is they are now retroactively creating an issue when there was none hinted at before in the MCU.  Sam's best friends are (were) Steve and Bucky, both white.  They both felt he was worthy.  The US government has let him basically run his own strike force, using expensive one of a kind tech, and never showed any care what his race was.  The only reason he was not captain America is because he decided not to take the mantel, because he thought he was not worthy.  The government only picked a new one, because he essentially turned it down. Race is a topic that is worth exploring, but as it relates to Sam, they have never established that his race has ever held him back.

 

Now I find Isaiah's story horrible, and feasible in the time period he was talking about, it has never been a hinted that Sam faced anything near that level.  They did give him a few scenes that were meant to establish some of this, (being the bank loan scene and when he was stopped in the neighborhood) but those seem to be the exception rather than the rule.  Other than those, he seems to be very well known and respected. The rest is based on Isaiah's experiences, not Sam's. While these are detestable, Isaiah's experiences do not transfer over to Sam, and they are implying that race relations and perceptions are static over the last 70 years.

Exactly - I love that they brought in Isaiah's story, which basically parallels that of the comics.

But I think the key part of his episode 5 scene with Sam was his statement that "America will never allow a black Captain America" - which Sam will set out to prove wrong. Times have changed since WW2 and Isaiah's experience. And Sam can be the one to pick up that mantle today.

[WeR138]

The shield-slinging is small potatoes when you have such a haphazard respect for what some of this physical confrontation would do the human body, normal or super-soldier.

Zemo gets hit in the melon by the shield, and the result is an ice pack.

And then when you need a dead person,  we're all about reality again.

Not saying that this unique to this series,  but at the very least, people wouldn't be getting up from some of these hits.

Having said that, I look forward to more Walker and Zemo somewhere down the line. 

[WeR138]

2 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

With no apologies to Jeff Foxworthy, if you think the world is a good and pure place devoid of sexism or racism, then you just might be a white dude in America.

With all due respect, this may be the stupidest thing I have ever read on these boards. 

[lordbyroncomics]

56 minutes ago, TupennyConan said:

This sounds like a kind of Blaxploitation argument -- that is, making use of current political or social attitudes in pursuit of the fast nickel while never letting on that that's the goal  Such an argument may be leveled against Black Panther -- the character from the comics or the movies [& the movie] -- or against countless other historical or contemporary commercial examples. 

yeah, because of the first Black Panther character who was white... oh wait 

[lordbyroncomics]

5 minutes ago, WeR138 said:

With all due respect, this may be the stupidest thing I have ever read on these boards. 

Also with respect, I'm pretty sure the stupidest thing I have ever read on these boards would be the amount of tangible annoyance that comic fans have for shows about comic book characters defying the law of science when it comes to one thing, which is throwing a shield made out of an imaginary metal. 

[TupennyConan]

22 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

yeah, because of the first Black Panther character who was white... oh wait 

You've made this point three times, this being the third, and have made it well. It's a good point. It got my attention & I appreciate that.

My posts glossed past it & proceeded on to other related items but I didn't overlook it. 

[Bosco685]

26 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

Also with respect, I'm pretty sure the stupidest thing I have ever read on these boards would be the amount of tangible annoyance that comic fans have for shows about comic book characters defying the law of science when it comes to one thing, which is throwing a shield made out of an imaginary metal. 

I don't think that's the contributor here when it comes to poorly conveyed storytelling. Respectfully. 

One minute Sam is snatching that shield out of the air like it is the most natural thing. The next he is trying to catch it while flying through the air like a circus performer and each time he just can't do it. The two didn't add up. He already had the technique down on how to catch it and toss it. No matter how many somersaults he performed in taking on the Ringmaster. See what I mean?

[lordbyroncomics]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

I don't think that's the contributor here when it comes to poorly conveyed storytelling. Respectfully. 

One minute Sam is snatching that shield out of the air like it is the most natural thing. The next he is trying to catch it while flying through the air like a circus performer and each time he just can't do it. The two didn't add up. He already had the technique down on how to catch it and toss it. No matter how many somersaults he performed in taking on the Ringmaster. See what I mean?

I do understand that. You're not wrong... I'm just saying, why are some unrealistic things acceptable but this one isn't? I believe it's all acceptable in terms of being far-fetched because it's fantasy. Of course I'm not suggesting everyone has to think like me, this is an observation and not a judgment.