Authenticity of manga art @ heritage? 0

[Bronty]

 

Let me start off with.... there's a lot of fake manga art on ebay.    Because of the fact the published stuff is basically to get for the known properties, its all unpublished stuff, and becomes the realm of the hucksters who sell fake unpublished Schulzes and stuff.

A while ago, a friend and I saw this Hayao Miyazaki piece on heritage and initially thought well its Heritage, it must be legit... and saw it as an excellent buying opportunity.   However, we came to have serious doubts about the piece.   On the surface it seemed like a faker running stuff through Heritage, because:

1) It would be a very desirable piece.   Too good to be true?  For reference, this piece sold for the equivalent of about $300,000 https://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=570452

2) Stylistically it didn't seem to quite match up, something about it keeps bothering me.   His line seems loopier and more meandering in other sketches I've seen like this one  https://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=570455

Or more precise on concept work like this https://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=570454  , but never anything quite like this IMO.

3) Most damning of all, this sketch appears to be a recreation of a published movie poster for one of his most well known movies, here, pulled from heritage's own archives https://movieposters.ha.com/itm/animation/my-neighbor-totoro-toho-1988-japanese-b2-2025-x-285-style-b-animated/a/510111-51260.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 .   

 

Now, I don't know for sure, so I'm not going to say for sure, but it sure seems to me like someone, whether knowingly or not, is pushing some questionable material heritage's way and presumably because its not what they normally deal in they aren't checking it closely enough?   Now, no knock on heritage as they seem to vet 99.99% of what runs through their doors exceedingly well.    I think they are an A+ operation in every sense.   But I think there is reason to question this.

The reason I came on to post this actually was because I saw an Akira Toriyama listed on HA just now that, without the benefit of the research I was planning to do today, didn't quite seem right to me.    I see its been delisted, so hopefully that's because they came to have questions about it and not because we will see more of this later.  https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/akira-toriyama-dragon-ball-goku-sketch-original-art-2015-/a/7192-94991.s?type=wantlistid-426146!creatorid-cewl!linkclicked-lotlink!emailid-10262018-075124.716PM-1204436-426146!itemid-7192_220005!wlem

My only disappointment in all this was that we did bring the 'Miyazaki' auction to heritage's attention at the time, and there was no reply nor any action.

Thoughts?  I'd hate to see HA become a venue for questionable manga pieces.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Bronty

[vodou]

Bronty, the simple answer is the market for this level of material is approximately $300k (or more for a possibly more desirable property). Why would anybody that can put two and two together not consign it in Japan (heck...fly over, stay for a month in the best hotel, and then go home with STILL 200k in your pocket..EZ )? Because they would vet it right back to the consignor that's why. So unless the consignor got this for the equivalent of a burger and fries at a flea market or directly from the artist way back...they know their own market, are invested deep enough to not take any chances (consigning to HA/audience) or...they're fulla it

[glendgold]

And signed in what HA calls that "more legible style of kanji," hiragana.  That, uh, rounds the edges of how other folks might define it. 

[NinjaSealed]

My thoughts on the unpublished manga market are fake until proven real. Unless you have ironclad provenance, it's has to be assumed fake.

[Bronty]

10 hours ago, vodou said:

Bronty, the simple answer is the market for this level of material is approximately $300k (or more for a possibly more desirable property). Why would anybody that can put two and two together not consign it in Japan (heck...fly over, stay for a month in the best hotel, and then go home with STILL 200k in your pocket..EZ )? Because they would vet it right back to the consignor that's why. So unless the consignor got this for the equivalent of a burger and fries at a flea market or directly from the artist way back...they know their own market, are invested deep enough to not take any chances (consigning to HA/audience) or...they're fulla it

Michael, 

Of course.   I’m trying not to jump up and down and scream fake here because a) that would be disrespectful to heritage and the great job they generally do and b) because there is always the tiny chance, given I’m not an expert here either, that I might be overlooking something.   

I doubt it, but it’s not my style to cast aspersions on authenticity as being as fact unless I’m 100% sure.   

Edited November 12, 2018 by Bronty

[Bronty]

10 hours ago, glendgold said:

And signed in what HA calls that "more legible style of kanji," hiragana.  That, uh, rounds the edges of how other folks might define it. 

Fill us in?

[vodou]

12 hours ago, Bronty said:

Michael, 

Of course.   I’m trying not to jump up and down and scream fake here because a) that would be disrespectful to heritage and the great job they generally do and b) because there is always the tiny chance, given I’m not an expert here either, that I might be overlooking something.   

I doubt it, but it’s not my style to cast aspersions on authenticity as being as fact unless I’m 100% sure.   

I completely and totally agree with all of the above, note I didn't do any of that either...I'm equally uncomfortable calling FAKE!! and blowing somebody's consignment out of the water (unfairly, possibly so) and putting even a tint on HA's rep.

The question in my mind is...for both pieces actually...who wants these? I say, let 'em have it for $300k or even $1k...both pieces absolutely unattractive to me (as a keeper) at any price over $50 or so. And I'm a manga fan too, including Nausicaa among others (but not Totoro...I'm unfamiliar with the property, but would probably like it too based on the general widespread love). Beyond that, I'm not enough of an expert on (essentially) quick'n'ugly art to comment as to authenticity. And, man, I really really hope I never do become that expert

$300k...the level of art that buys, singularly or in nearly any combination you wish (exception: x30,000 $10 sketches!) is staggering, the opportunity cost...mind-blowing!

[Bronty]

3 minutes ago, vodou said:

I completely and totally agree with all of the above, note I didn't do any of that either...I'm equally uncomfortable calling FAKE!! and blowing somebody's consignment out of the water (unfairly, possibly so) and putting even a tint on HA's rep.

The question in my mind is...for both pieces actually...who wants these? I say, let 'em have it for $300k or even $1k...both pieces absolutely unattractive to me (as a keeper) at any price over $50 or so. And I'm a manga fan too, including Nausicaa among others (but not Totoro...I'm unfamiliar with the property, but would probably like it too based on the general widespread love). Beyond that, I'm not enough of an expert on (essentially) quick'n'ugly art to comment as to authenticity. And, man, I really really hope I never do become that expert

$300k...the level of art that buys, singularly or in nearly any combination you wish (exception: x30,000 $10 sketches!) is staggering, the opportunity cost...mind-blowing!

Sure.   That's mostly a separate discussion, except that with the potential prices of some them (an ugly one with poor subject matter in the 10k range should be noted too, as well as better ones with still not great subject matter around 50k ) ,  its going to attract fakers.

[vodou]

1 minute ago, Bronty said:

Sure.   That's mostly a separate discussion, ...

It is. And it isn't. Try this context (to my previous post) instead: always pay appropriate to the image (this: subjective of course) and you'll rarely overpay and almost never get faked out. Meaning, let the experts fight among themselves or universally step away, they know what $300k and $0.50 look like in this market. And I know my markets, happy when something is misunderstood, misidentified, etc as I can step in easier and/or pay much less. But I also know when a piece (segment I specialize in) is 'wrong' and step off. What I wrote has nothing to do with not 'getting' the artist, the subject matter, relative appeal based on 'context', 'use', et al...it was a simple statement of "inappropriate price:image, unless you specialize". I also don't (as in NEVER) buy off-brand, ugly, art that doesn't look like the hand of the master because the master's signature is present. The art tells all, the signature almost doesn't matter, and then it's simple: good price or not, negotiable (if close to 'good')? Does that work better?

[Bronty]

14 minutes ago, vodou said:

It is. And it isn't. Try this context (to my previous post) instead: always pay appropriate to the image (this: subjective of course) and you'll rarely overpay and almost never get faked out. Meaning, let the experts fight among themselves or universally step away, they know what $300k and $0.50 look like in this market. And I know my markets, happy when something is misunderstood, misidentified, etc as I can step in easier and/or pay much less. But I also know when a piece (segment I specialize in) is 'wrong' and step off. What I wrote has nothing to do with not 'getting' the artist, the subject matter, relative appeal based on 'context', 'use', et al...it was a simple statement of "inappropriate price:image, unless you specialize". I also don't (as in NEVER) buy off-brand, ugly, art that doesn't look like the hand of the master because the master's signature is present. The art tells all, the signature almost doesn't matter, and then it's simple: good price or not, negotiable (if close to 'good')? Does that work better?

I understand what you're saying, but really what I'm driving at with all of this is that I hope Heritage will see this and be careful about what they accept.

[vodou]

10 minutes ago, Bronty said:

...I hope Heritage will see this and be careful about what they accept.

Okay. I think somebody with more pull than you needs to pick up the phone then. It's not me, that's for sure, I'm a big ol' nobody

Coincidentally, I'm currently reading a 1973 book on cultural looting (grave-robbing basically) and let me tell you...all the auction houses and big dealers of the day, in antiquities, were all too happy to accept and sell on any old ridiculous provenance (story) of a distant uncle in Europe that died and left all sorts of stuff to folks. Straight out of Gallery on The Baum's book right there! It would be nice to think HA is different (than Sotheby's, Christie's, The Met, Boston MFA, et al) but as was recently pointed out in CFA-APA (natch!), globally in comic art...provenance matters not. But as numbers keep hitting six figures, it will. It has to. The fakers are drawn in, if nothing else. Meanwhile, if HA isn't asking...who would be randomly offering up that information with their consignments? Right???

[Peter L]

During this Heritage auction, I got my call on my cellphone to confirm I wanted to phone bid on Wednesday.  I was in a meeting so I didn't pick up and it went to voicemail.  I had a serious question about an issue with a piece so I called the number the guy left (If I had any questions) and then I never heard back.  I'm suggesting that Heritage may not be that interested in returning calls that may threaten the bottom line.

[ESeffinga]

On 11/12/2018 at 12:05 PM, vodou said:

Coincidentally, I'm currently reading a 1973 book on cultural looting (grave-robbing basically) and let me tell you...all the auction houses and big dealers of the day, in antiquities, were all too happy to accept and sell on any old ridiculous provenance (story) of a distant uncle in Europe that died and left all sorts of stuff to folks.

Title? Author? Color me interested.

[vodou]

4 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Title? Author? Color me interested.

This:

but I first read this, which got me interested in the subject:

 

Which came many years later (ca. 40) and provides the final fate for many of the named players in Meyer's book

So I read them backwards, if you will, and suggest reading them in publication date order instead!

[ESeffinga]