show us your Mile Highs (Edgar Church copies) 7 7

[njwis]

12 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Keep in mind that Edgar Church wasn't a typical kid begging his news dealer to hold copies for him.  He was an established adult illustrator requesting copies as source material for his files.  It should be assumed he had a deal with a local distributor or store account to acquire undamaged copies and some care was taken to insure the customer got what he requested.  At least that's my best guess.

This is one part of the story that i don't believe.  If he actually used comics for reference they would have had wear on them or have been out of order or even had pieces cut out of them.

I actually believe he was an OCD collector/hoarder and used it as an excuse with his wives to justify buying every comic that was published.  His basement must have been off-limits to his kids and wife to  leave everything in such good condition.

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by njwis

[jimjum12]

People often assume things based upon their own paradigm …. they overlook other possibilities. I've never, for example, seen any first hand accounts that lend credence to the assumption that Edgar made weekly trips to the newsstand to buy every new comic that came out that day. Let's say, hypothetically, that the distributor may have kept a "file" copy, with the markings in place to keep a record of how many issues went to a particular retailer.... you, know, to insure they don't try to return more than they have coming to them. In a case like this, Mr.Church may have had an agreement in place to buy those "file" copies, after they became obsolete …. a month's worth or more at a time. Another possibility would be a one time bulk purchase of a decade or more worth of "file" books.... at auction or even a "haul them away for free" type of thing. We all, as collectors, want to believe he dutifully made his Mecca Trek to the newsstand each week out of his love for the medium … but from what I've seen, this is at best, conjecture. Another assumption is that every copy of each issue had the Distributor Code...… how did we arrive at the conclusion that every copy got the code and that Edgar just grabbed one ? GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited December 5, 2018 by jimjum12

[buttock]

24 minutes ago, jimjum12 said:

People often assume things based upon there own paradigm …. they overlook other possibilities. I've never, for example, seen any first hand accounts that lend credence to the assumption that Edgar made weekly trips to the newsstand to buy every new comic that came out that day. Let's say, hypothetically, that the distributor may have kept a "file" copy, with the markings in place to keep a record of how many issues went to a particular retailer.... you, know, to insure they don't try to return more than they have coming to them. In a case like this, Mr.Church may have had an agreement in place to buy those "file" copies, after they became obsolete …. a month's worth or more at a time. Another possibility would be a one time bulk purchase of a decade or more worth of "file" books.... at auction or even a "haul them away for free" type of thing. We all, as collectors, want to believe he dutifully made his Mecca Trek to the newsstand each week out of his love for the medium … but from what I've seen, this is at best, conjecture. Another assumption is that every copy of each issue had the Distributor Code...… how did we arrive at the conclusion that every copy got the code and that Edgar just grabbed one ? GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Why would the newsstand bother to code the books if he was going to set them aside and they were already sold? 

 

The bottom line is that we're all speculating about it (the one that I struggle with is the idea that the extra number references the number of that issue received by the newsstand, it's certainly possible, but no way to know for sure), but Occam's razor applies and making things more complicated with hypotheses that don't make sense seems silly.  

[jimjum12]

3 minutes ago, buttock said:

Why would the newsstand bother to code the books if he was going to set them aside and they were already sold? 

 

The bottom line is that we're all speculating about it (the one that I struggle with is the idea that the extra number references the number of that issue received by the newsstand, it's certainly possible, but no way to know for sure), but Occam's razor applies and making things more complicated with hypotheses that don't make sense seems silly.  

The extra number would be a for record kept internally, on one file copy, to have a physical example of what went where, and how many. Also a date when the return clock begins ticking ….. something like that would be useful to either the distributor or the retailer. I've seen several batches of books over the years that were salvaged from back rooms of different retail outlets.... usually a half dozen or more of the same issue. These have never had any date stamps or codes on any of them. I can't remember any Publisher file copies that are dated or coded either (Dell, Harvey, etc....)...although some of the Dell Files did have a "Property Of" …. I just don't buy the explanation that Edgar went each week to the newsstand and bought every single title and then never read any of them … or that the retailer wrote a code on each issue they received...hundreds each week ..and then Church chose one of those. There has to be more to it than that. Larsen's books had his name.... but what else ? GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[buttock]

1 minute ago, jimjum12 said:

The extra number would be a for record kept internally, on one file copy, to have a physical example of what went where, and how many. Also a date when the return clock begins ticking ….. something like that would be useful to either the distributor or the retailer. I've seen several batches of books over the years that were salvaged from back rooms of different retail outlets.... usually a half dozen or more of the same issue. These have never had any date stamps or codes on any of them. I can't remember any Publisher file copies that are dated or coded either (Dell, Harvey, etc....)...although some of the Dell Files did have a "Property Of" …. I just don't buy the explanation that Edgar went each week to the newsstand and bought every single title and then never read any of them … or that the retailer wrote a code on each issue they received...hundreds each week ..and then Church chose one of those. There has to be more to it than that. Larsen's books had his name.... but what else ? GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

So the fact that many newsstands were using some coding system and date stamps/written dates to assist with returns doesn't make you think that the simplest explanation is that the retailer in Denver was doing the same thing as many of his peers?

 

D copies

San Franciscos (G code for Gilboy)

Salidas

Green Rivers

Larsons (ON, PN codes)

Auroras

Ohios

Plenty of examples of return codes.  

[jimjum12]

29 minutes ago, buttock said:

So the fact that many newsstands were using some coding system and date stamps/written dates to assist with returns doesn't make you think that the simplest explanation is that the retailer in Denver was doing the same thing as many of his peers?

 

D copies

San Franciscos (G code for Gilboy)

Salidas

Green Rivers

Larsons (ON, PN codes)

Auroras

Ohios

Plenty of examples of return codes.  

Dan, I would be more likely to assume that if there weren't so very many GA books that DON'T have them. That just suggests even more so to me that not every copy got a code at a given retail outlet. I do recall someone sharing once that each of their books was date stamped at the counter, at the time of purchase, however. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

….. many of the books that have "codes" or writing that come from sources with more backstory seem to indicate that the code was added for a specific reason, and sometimes by the purchaser after the fact.... as in the White Mountain collection. No codes are on the Twin Cities, Pacific Coast, or Curators..... but those are SA. The Okajima's were coded specifically for her..... 

Edited December 5, 2018 by jimjum12

[buttock]

12 minutes ago, jimjum12 said:

Dan, I would be more likely to assume that if there weren't so very many GA books that DON'T have them. That just suggests even more so to me that not every copy got a code at a given retail outlet. I do recall someone sharing once that each of their books was date stamped at the counter, at the time of purchase, however. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Right.  Different retailers had different ways to manage it.  I'm sure some kept ledgers.  But when it's something that's seen over and over and over and over again, it's not very logical to try to say that in this single instance it's something different.  

[jimjum12]

2 minutes ago, buttock said:

Right.  Different retailers had different ways to manage it.  I'm sure some kept ledgers.  But when it's something that's seen over and over and over and over again, it's not very logical to try to say that in this single instance it's something different.  

I like hypothetical debate..... but in the end, we'll likely never know the truth. My point is, with this Church legend, that assumptions have been made that have almost evolved into a perception of fact, when they may not be. 

There are two things that I DO know :

1) You are one of my favorite Boardies 

2) I am not as intelligent as I think I am....

GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

[Straw-Man]

9 hours ago, adamstrange said:

Those Targets are sweet! I'm pretty sure those are ones I saw raw before they were slabbed.

so did we both, and i remember exactly where.

[Bat34]

23 minutes ago, Straw-Man said:

so did we both, and i remember exactly where.

Fun to know! I'm sure I would have rather paid whatever the price was when you both saw them raw! 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Bat34

[adamstrange]

22 minutes ago, Straw-Man said:

so did we both, and i remember exactly where.

Good times!  Do they still have that small show?

[adamstrange]

1 minute ago, Bat34 said:

Fun to know! I'm sure I would have rather paid whatever the price was when you joth saw them raw! 

I think they were generally $175 to $250 each for the dozen or so he had.  Even at the time they were inexpensive given the condition and pedigree.

[Timely]

If you look closely at this code, you can see they made a mistake coding it... and fixed it.  They forgot to put the "D" and wrote "11" first.  They then went over the "11" & turned it into a "D".

 

Why take the time & trouble if they did not consider it important?

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Timely

[adamstrange]

3 hours ago, njwis said:

This is one part of the story that i don't believe.  If he actually used comics for reference they would have had wear on them or have been out of order or even had pieces cut out of them.

I actually believe he was an OCD collector/hoarder and used it as an excuse with his wives to justify buying every comic that was published.  His basement must have been off-limits to his kids and wife to  leave everything in such good condition.

 

 

From Chuck:

Quote

Mr. Church's reason for collecting all these comics and magazines was that he needed them for "reference" for his commercial art career. During the period from about 1925-1953 he was on the staff of Mountain Bell, the phone company for the Rocky Mountain region. He worked in the advertising department, designing and drawing ads for the first commercial directories (later to be know as Yellow Pages). He had started his career as a freelance artist in about 1912, and had his own studio prior to going to work at the phone company full time. Judging by the huge collection of his artwork that I eventually managed to save, Mr. Church continued to produce freelance artwork all through the 1920's and 1930's. He was an accomplished artist, with the ability to mimic almost any style. It clearly helped him, however, to have a vast clipping file from which to borrow ideas. It was part of his enormous collection of line art magazine covers, interior artwork, and advertising pages that the heirs had thrown away during my first visit to the house.

At this point I need to draw an important distinction between Mr. Church's attitude toward his reference files, and his comics. The reference files were made up entirely of clippings and covers from line art magazines, and pulps. Mr. Church was ruthless with these magazines, chopping them into bits with gusto. The pieces he wanted to keep were then put into legal storage boxes shaped to look like books. These boxes had hinged lids that opened, and each was about 5 inches deep. Mr. Church had labeled each of his storage boxes, so he could quickly go to his bookshelf and easily pull down categories such as "Maxfield Parrish," "Dogs," or "Bridal." To this day, I have this vision of him sitting in his basement during the Great Depression, listening to old-time radio, and happily cutting up his magazines. My best estimate is that he filled about 300-400 boxes with clippings during his years of effort.

His comics (at least all the ones he purchased from 1938-1947), on the other hand, were in a room that had been padlocked for years. I think I eventually found one comic (out of 18,000) that had some notes in the margins. Other than that single book, he kept his comics in perfect condition. It was clear to me from the fact that the heirs had to break the padlock off of the closet that his children were never allowed to touch his comics. That, too, may have led to some antagonism on their part toward his comics collection. I think it's safe to surmise that Mr. Church viewed his comics as his own private passion, and wanted to share them with no one. Is it any wonder that his heirs didn't show any fondness for them?

 

[njwis]

20 minutes ago, adamstrange said:

 

From Chuck:

 

yes ive read that few times on chucks website.   that's why i don't buy that the comics were used for reference he just collected them. he had OCD for comic books.

[adamstrange]

4 minutes ago, njwis said:

yes ive read that few times on chucks website.   that's why i don't buy that the comics were used for reference he just collected them. he had OCD for comic books.

Church drew comic book covers and stories that were never published so he had an artistic interest in the medium.

[Cat-Man_America]

5 hours ago, buttock said:

The reason that vendors put distributor codes on books was so that they would know which distributor they should return the books to in case of a non-sale.  I never said they were designated for returns.  The point that I'm making is that the fact that they had distributor codes written on them means that they had already made it to the newsstand, so they would not have been obtained directly from the distributor.  That's flat out wrong.  

Not arguing with your POV, just trying to establish a well reasoned rationale for it.  In referencing the coded copies, it seems reasonable to question "...that they had already made it to the newsstand," as we don't see similar codes on many GA books that "made it to the newsstands" in other collections, regardless of grade.  Was this a common practice? It seem unlikely. 

The penciled-in code on covers is unique and common with the Edgar Church collection from this period and that's where it invites further analysis.  It seems more likely that these frequently pristine books were set aside for Edgar Church at some point early in the process before making it to the newsstand where they'd be thumbed through by an earlier generation of ravenous fans like ourselves.  

Sincere apologies for interpreting "the codes on the books were written by the vendor for returns to the distributor" as meaning designated as returns.  That's how your statement appeared to me.  Guess I overthunk it.  

Edited December 5, 2018 by Cat-Man_America

[Cat-Man_America]

5 hours ago, njwis said:

This is one part of the story that i don't believe.  If he actually used comics for reference they would have had wear on them or have been out of order or even had pieces cut out of them.

I actually believe he was an OCD collector/hoarder and used it as an excuse with his wives to justify buying every comic that was published.  His basement must have been off-limits to his kids and wife to  leave everything in such good condition.

 

Actually, this makes perfect sense to some degree.  He didn't just have comic books set aside, he also had pulps and magazines set aside (most of the pulps were apparently damaged by water and heat from being stored near a water heater in Church's basement).  Of all the things I've read about Edgar Church, I've never been left with the impression that he was an OCD collector/hoarder. Why he stored those comics away under lock and key is still a mystery.  Most OCD hoarders aren't nearly so neat about it.

The truth is, we don't know which publications he used for inspiration or swipe material for his illustration art.  Perhaps he just collected and stored comic books thinking comic art was something he might try if other areas of his artistic ambition fell through.  We may never know Edgar's rationale for obtaining, storing and maintaining so many great comic books, but ...ironically perhaps... our community's reverence for his collection has provided immortality for Mr. Church that extends far beyond his artistic aspirations.

1 hour ago, adamstrange said:

Church drew comic book covers and stories that were never published so he had an artistic interest in the medium.

He obviously had a broad interest in commercial illustration art.  How far along he got with it is anyone's guess.  However, it wouldn't surprise me if some of his submitted work made it into magazines in the forties and fifties (assuming he moonlighted his day job illustrating ads in telephone directories).  Also, submitted illustration art wouldn't necessarily have been returned to him after publication.  Anyway, I haven't seen much investigation along these lines, but it is intriguing.  

Edited December 5, 2018 by Cat-Man_America

[buttock]

4 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

I like hypothetical debate..... but in the end, we'll likely never know the truth. My point is, with this Church legend, that assumptions have been made that have almost evolved into a perception of fact, when they may not be. 

There are two things that I DO know :

1) You are one of my favorite Boardies 

2) I am not as intelligent as I think I am....

GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

• (ꈍᴗꈍ)ε｀*)

[adamstrange]

It's very likely that Church didn't read the vast majority of his comics.  Sometimes on Church comics you'll see pages lightly stuck together because because of registration perfs.  If he had read them, that would not be the case.

Edited December 6, 2018 by adamstrange