How do sellers feel about selling at HA? 2 2

[NinjaSealed]

The apparent disconnect between the monster prices heritage seems to achieve regularly and the consignor disappointments is interesting. Probably a combination of the massive juice and maybe some unrealistic expectations?

 

I have never consigned with them and have a pile of art I was going to send them in January. You guys are giving me second thoughts!

 

 

 

[artdealer]

1 hour ago, NinjaSealed said:

The apparent disconnect between the monster prices heritage seems to achieve regularly and the consignor disappointments is interesting. Probably a combination of the massive juice and maybe some unrealistic expectations?

 

I have never consigned with them and have a pile of art I was going to send them in January. You guys are giving me second thoughts!

 

 

 

Consign it to me.

MI

[Panelfan1]

3 hours ago, NinjaSealed said:

The apparent disconnect between the monster prices heritage seems to achieve regularly and the consignor disappointments is interesting. Probably a combination of the massive juice and maybe some unrealistic expectations?

 

I have never consigned with them and have a pile of art I was going to send them in January. You guys are giving me second thoughts!

 

 

 

Disconnect is the word I wish I used in creating this thread.   Is the disconnect simply that a lot of items are actually sold without much gain or even a loss - but we pay so much attention to items like 'master race' and vintage spidey covers that we miss what's going on at other things?

 

Does this disconnect exist as much at clink which is less celebrated than HA?

Edited November 30, 2018 by Panelfan1

[John E.]

5 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

Disconnect is the word I wish I used in creating this thread.   Is the disconnect simply that a lot of items are actually sold without much gain or even a loss - but we pay so much attention to items like 'master race' and vintage spidey covers that we miss what's going on at other things?

 

Does this disconnect exist as much at clink which is less celebrated than HA?

It’s tough to say. I’ll see art for sale on CAF or on these boards for a fixed price which no one moves on then they hit the auction block only to get half or less of asking. Always exceptions of course. But what attributes to the discrepancy? Hard to say. 

I think I return to what is preached here on the boards, the A-stuff will climb and the middle of the road stuff will dwadle. 

I’m more conservative and expect the piece to depreciate off the lot than think it’s now worth double the next day like flippers do. 

[BCarter27]

8 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

Does this disconnect exist as much at clink

Definitely not. Consignor sees 90% of the buyer's payment to Comic Link and ComicConnect (or call it 80% in a sales tax state) versus 60%. Anyone want to prove to me that HA makes up that 30% with additional eyeballs or their hammer system?

[MyNameIsLegion]

4 hours ago, BCarter27 said:

Definitely not. Consignor sees 90% of the buyer's payment to Comic Link and ComicConnect (or call it 80% in a sales tax state) versus 60%. Anyone want to prove to me that HA makes up that 30% with additional eyeballs or their hammer system?

I've railed about this in multiple threads and on FB- and various people get all twitchy when you question the FMV of a piece = Y because it sold for X + 20%+ TAX (and S&H).  Then when that piece gets flipped, you tack on another 20-30%, and very quickly the price has doubled from what the original consignor netted. The ONLY people making money here is the auction house, and prices are quickly escalating to a point that things are wildly inflated. A good piece of art will find it's true value in the marketplace -  auction fees for both buyer an seller distort that perception of value, and suck up most of the profit in the process. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by MYNAMEISLEGION

[▫️]

4 hours ago, BCarter27 said:

Definitely not. Consignor sees 90% of the buyer's payment to Comic Link and ComicConnect (or call it 80% in a sales tax state) versus 60%. Anyone want to prove to me that HA makes up that 30% with additional eyeballs or their hammer system?

That’s why I buy from Heritage and sell at ComicLink.  The best thing about Heritage is their excellent scan archive.

[Rick2you2]

18 hours ago, NinjaSealed said:

The apparent disconnect between the monster prices heritage seems to achieve regularly and the consignor disappointments is interesting. Probably a combination of the massive juice and maybe some unrealistic expectations?

 

I have never consigned with them and have a pile of art I was going to send them in January. You guys are giving me second thoughts!

 

 

 

Have you thought about giving Boardies first crack?

[Rick2you2]

9 hours ago, Jay Olie Espy said:

It’s tough to say. I’ll see art for sale on CAF or on these boards for a fixed price which no one moves on then they hit the auction block only to get half or less of asking. Always exceptions of course. But what attributes to the discrepancy? Hard to say. 

I think I return to what is preached here on the boards, the A-stuff will climb and the middle of the road stuff will dwadle. 

I’m more conservative and expect the piece to depreciate off the lot than think it’s now worth double the next day like flippers do. 

I know of one instance where the opposite happened. The seller wanted $1,100 on CAF and didn't get it. He went to HA and is sold for $1,900 or so with Buyer's Premium but w/o sales tax. And no, it was not A list. Just middlle of the road Aparo.

[vodou]

2 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

I've railed about this in multiple threads and on FB- and various people get all twitchy when you question the FMV of a piece = Y because it sold for X + 20%+ TAX (and S&H).  Then when that piece gets flipped, you tack on another 20-30%, and very quickly the price has doubled from what the original consignor netted. The ONLY people making money here is the auction house, and prices are quickly escalating to a point that things are wildly inflated. A good piece of art will find it's true value in the marketplace -  auction fees for both buyer an seller distort that perception of value, and suck up most of the profit in the process. 

What you describe is drag or friction, beyond those named there is freight insurance and whatever further overhead the end-user brings to bear too such as framing, home security, off-site storage/security, insurance, environmental controls, strains on relationships due to overindulging or paranoia, and more that even I'm not thinking of. None of this matters when "it's a keeper", truly, but...otherwise you kinda-sorta-have-to double just to break even financially and emotionally, or be a-ok taking hits all over the place. Do that a few times and the emotional wear is something too, never mind getting the stinkeye from the missus!

Doubling less than every ten years puts a lot of pressure (to perform) on a market. Any growth beyond working age population (very low) or inflation rate (true number not official COLA) should be viewed skeptically. Art by definition is traded fool to greater fool, if the expansion is greater than both of the previous indicators. Those balls have to stay in the air for the audience to stay in their seats, more balls need to go up and stay up to keep the audience growing, to keep the captive and newbies spending more and more. Occasionally a ball can drop, oops!, and the show goes on, after all there are so many other balls still up there, right? But too many dropped balls and most of the audience walk in disgust. My pet theory is that the whole edifice (of supply:demand=BOOM prices) is supported (financed) primarily by outsiders (to comic art) upgrading hobbies (selling overpriced CGC 9.8 to buy overpriced comic art) or very easy low-rate credit "money". I don't think there is a lot of new money, cash money out of payrolls or savings, coming into the hobby. I certainly do not think there is a lot of new blood coming in, outside of comic book world overall.

The weakest link in that chain is ez money. EZ money is sentiment leverage, and we all know leverage helps and hurts on steroids. There's rate risk, which is happening, moving to housing slowdown, which is happening, which definitely affects sentiment. Next we'll see low rate credit disappear, making use more expensive, and then credit lines will contract too, meaning less to spend anyway. Somewhere in there those balls will really start dropping. This is such a US-centric view though, there are many other factors when viewing the credit/banking/money situation as a global organism (maybe dying one?) that could actually drive demand into comic art (among other non-Big Brother assets). Total speculation there, only to say what looks like a Big Down from one, possibly faulty, pov  could turn out quite differently pulling back to the big picture instead.

[vodou]

44 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I know of one instance where the opposite happened. The seller wanted $1,100 on CAF and didn't get it. He went to HA and is sold for $1,900 or so with Buyer's Premium but w/o sales tax. And no, it was not A list. Just middlle of the road Aparo.

That seller came out barely ahead, which is fine, but it's Aparo -a good name. I think that seller, like the experience of most casino-goers, would find that giving them more congsignment he would lose at least 53% of the time!

[chromium]

Very interesting debate... I've been extremely close to consigning  a bunch of stuff to HA (one push of a button away on the email) but in the end I decided to go at it on my own.

Now, I've been a very satisfied buyer from Heritage since 2002... but they do take a big bite out the pie, which is fine if you are in a hurry to sell...but I'm in no hurry and don't need to sell, just want to.

I had about 12-15 EC pages from the 50's to sell (Ingels - Wood - Davis - Craig), and common sense told me to sell them on Heritage as out of all the auction houses they do attract the most buyers for this kind of material. In the end I didn't and 5 weeks ago sent out an email to 5 other collectors, I sold 8 pages in under a month, all private. Only one of the people I contacted bought a page, the other pages went to collectors who knew those people and two to art dealers (that paid my full ask). So if you have a network, the time and no urgency I would highly recommend trying a private sale first.

Edited December 1, 2018 by chromium
i before e except after c

[delekkerste]

9 hours ago, BCarter27 said:

Definitely not. Consignor sees 90% of the buyer's payment to Comic Link and ComicConnect (or call it 80% in a sales tax state) versus 60%. Anyone want to prove to me that HA makes up that 30% with additional eyeballs or their hammer system?

I think most larger consignors at least get the seller's commission waived, which gets the effective commish down to 16.7% vs. 10% at CLink.  BP rebates are also possible in some cases and can narrow the gap even more. 

[tth2]

10 hours ago, BCarter27 said:

Anyone want to prove to me that HA makes up that 30% with additional eyeballs or their hammer system?

The only people who pay the full 30% at Heritage are the same people who pay full rack rate at a hotel. 

[BCarter27]

So let's lay out it... What's the real break point on picking HA, price-wise? For new consignors, their nominal consignment to get in the door is $5K and you have to whine a lot to get that down to 10% seller's fee.

How big does your consignment have to be to get that waived? Anyone have any numbers? I made a referral to another consignor with about $10K estimated (ended up selling for almost double that, iirc) and I don't think she was able to get the seller's fee waived.

The seller's fee is not the problem in my view. It's the BP. How big a consignment before you get a BP rebate? Anyone been through this with them?

 

 

[BCarter27]

6 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

the FMV of a piece = Y because it sold for X + 20%+ TAX (and S&H).

I think even a new collector would only make this mistake once. After that, they're factoring in the BP, tax, and shipping (and possibly interest on time payments, conservation, and framing costs.) So I think that FMV is reasonably accurate (barring all of the usual exceptions -- shilling, key bidders missing the auction, or in the other direction, two crazies pushing a piece up.)

The consignor is the one who eats every fee. So the question to ask is how much does that stifle selling?

This is just one of the many reasons ebay blew up. The fees were relatively low and the selling process was much more transparent than local or global auction houses.

[MyNameIsLegion]

2 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I think most larger consignors at least get the seller's commission waived, which gets the effective commish down to 16.7% vs. 10% at CLink.  BP rebates are also possible in some cases and can narrow the gap even more. 

well and I think this is the key here: a few (very few) people are keep the entire HA model afloat by bidding and consigning in sufficient quantities that it is free for them, and $$$$$ AF for everyone else, and keeps the perception of price afloat, and basically is price protection for their art holdings- in a regulated financial market these dealings would probably put all parties in jail.

[MyNameIsLegion]

1 hour ago, BCarter27 said:

I think even a new collector would only make this mistake once. After that, they're factoring in the BP, tax, and shipping (and possibly interest on time payments, conservation, and framing costs.) So I think that FMV is reasonably accurate (barring all of the usual exceptions -- shilling, key bidders missing the auction, or in the other direction, two crazies pushing a piece up.)

The consignor is the one who eats every fee. So the question to ask is how much does that stifle selling?

This is just one of the many reasons ebay blew up. The fees were relatively low and the selling process was much more transparent than local or global auction houses.

yeah but ebay went a different route and with fixed price BIN ruined the collectibles auction market for themselves. They could have elected to only allow auction style formats on collectibles categories, now less than 10% of the OA category is auction style- the rest is ridiculous . I've seen certain pieces of art, and not bad ones either, stay list for 5+ years at 5x FMV. Those pieces of art are radioactive- no one will ever buy them, we are all sick of seeing them.  Ebay allowing automatic free relisting has created a category of 40K items with only about 15-25% of that is new and churning through. 

As to the first part of your comment- it's not about the FMV of a particular piece of art or auction- it's ALL auctions, the whole thing is a shill.  If most OA ran through eBay, and they didn't have cozy deals with other dealers buying on credit, selling at a discount, etc etc, dealers would lose their or would not have enough CASH to keep the whole OA market afloat the way HA is now.

Time and again you will see a decent page of art for auction on Ebay- everyone sees it, because CAF and other services will filter out the gunk to highlight the few decent pieces. It will sell for $700-1200 for an average panel page from a good artist for a DC or Marvel book.  Then it will be on HA or Clink or a dealers site for 2 or 3x more.  It did not magically double or triple in value in 60 days, or because it sold for under $1500 due to an inferior auction format (eBay) I call BS on that. Nope, it's just been plucked out of the mainstream market and placed in the Wall Street OA market.  Suckers welcome to bid, and HA gets the fees, and the rest is trading amongst themselves, where how many zero's is irrelevant because you can add a zero to the price every 5-10 years and not spend a dime trading like for like. 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by MYNAMEISLEGION

[tth2]

The problem with selling in a private sale is that you're limited by your own imagination, even where you're selling at what you think is a very aggressive price that you're happy with.  Which means that you're missing the possibility that someone out there is willing to pay a whole lot more.

I've never sold any OA, only comics, but my personal experience is that the total extra dollars I've received from auctions where bidders were willing to pay way more than I was expecting significantly exceeds the total "negative" dollars I "lost" because the auction results were less than I was expecting.

[suspense39]

 

“The problem with selling in a private sale is that you're limited by your own imagination, even where you're selling at what you think is a very aggressive price that you're happy with.  Which means that you're missing the possibility that someone out there is willing to pay a whole lot more”

true, but it could also be a lot less