HA February Auction 6 6

[Brian Peck]

13 minutes ago, vodou said:

Is quirky the word you're looking for?

Charm is not how I describe his Conan work, another C comes to mind

 

[mtlevy1]

4 hours ago, delekkerste said:

No excuses for the BWS Conan #5 splash.  $11K hammer/$13.2K with the BP.  Seller will likely only have netted 10-15% depending on the deal he has with HA on a 7+ year holding period.  Not that he didn't have the pride of ownership or that appreciation was the goal...just pointing out that this market has been dead flat while mainstream hero art from the Silver and Copper Ages have been on fire.  I doubt if BWS Conan prices have appreciated at all over the past 5 years.  There is far more heat on BWS' Weapon X work due to the change in the underlying hobby demographics.  You'd have to be blind not to see it at this point.  

Anyway, it's pretty shocking to see as a longtime OA collector.  When I started collecting OA, BWS Conan was firmly blue chip investment grade art.  Maybe not AAA rated like Ditko Spidey or Kirby FF, but, solid AA (using S&P bond rating terminology) "investment grade".  Now it's more like BBB- and on negative watch for potential downgrade to junk status. 

 

I am a big BWS fan and it is interesting to watch the market shift from '70s Conan to late '80s Weapon X but for me it is more how high the WeaponX prices are than that Conan prices have crashed - although I do agree Conan is not a hot market segment and prices have not moved recently.

 BWS Conan buyers are more aesthietic influenced (heck they are buying BWS) than most other segments so when a not-so-pretty example is auctioned, who is going to buy it for strong price?  New owners should not be offended as the prices reflect the quality so no aspersions cast here.

So yes the market for below-average BWS Conan is weak - but for pages that show off BWS talents let's see a few poor sales before we go all Vitalstatistix

When I look at recent HA.com sales - last nice panel page with plenty of Conan was Conan 8 p 5 on Aug '18 and sold for $15.6k...not too shabby...

Mark

P.S. Yes, I do have a spare Conan 7 page in my portfolio (must mention conflicts in the market prognostications) but no, the Frost Giant is not moving!

 

[NelsonAI]

Nostalgia aside, early BWS Conan art was a bad imitation of Kirby.  Even before the inkers got to it.

So no surprise that the greater demand is for BWS art in the later issues when he looked like a different artist especially when he inked his own work.

Most collectors want art from an artist's prime period.

Also no surprise that Wolverine is more popular than Conan.

[delekkerste]

6 hours ago, BCarter27 said:

I don't follow it as closely, but I think the Mandro piece and #5 cover did well last year. Those are the only pieces that I've seen lately that scream "gotta have it" to me. So maybe some of what you are seeing are the individual offerings.

I think the shine is definitely off the earlier pages as nostalgia fades. IMO, I think the later-style "BWS" Conan and Gorblimey stuff would still raise a few eyebrows if it crossed the block.

$60K for the #5 cover last year may have been FMV, but, it was definitely far from a great result given that it would have been worth that much as far back as 2013 (maybe even 2012), and would probably have been worth a little more than that when the BWS Conan market crested around 5 years ago.  

The Mandro strips were gorgeous - I know who bought them; he has good taste (and is also in the age cohort you would expect...)

Edited February 23, 2019 by delekkerste

[delekkerste]

6 hours ago, GreatEscape said:

As the seller, I am naturally disappointed but this result was not unexpected (= why I decided to sell).  I once considered BWS Conan as blue chip as well, but the market flat-lined after recent sales of 3-4 covers, the full issue (8?) and a dozens panel pages. Plus, Conan realm seems outside the MCU of superheroes on the big screen.   Market has spoken...my splash hammered for $8,500 ($10,100) in 2011 vs.$11,000 (13,200) today, the 30% return (~15% net) after 7 years is downright ugly for OA.  Worse, Heritage put the OTHER splash (#7) in Platinum Night not mine. Worse, I was offered $12.5k six months after buying it but turned it down.      Hey, at least I enjoyed having it for a few years and came out slightly ahead.  Congrats to the new owner, great value by Crom!

Sorry about this, Dino.  

Yeah, 30% gross/15% net return over 7+ years is not great, especially since all of that return came in the first 2-3 years of holding it. 

I hear what people are saying about aesthetics and preferring later BWS to earlier, but, this is something that has always been the case.  I mean, who doesn't love later BWS Conan over earlier?  It doesn't change the fact that the earlier material (Conan #1-15) was once solidly blue chip and that one could have sold the #5 splash for $15K all day long and maybe $20K+ on Sunday back in 2014 (the #5 cover back then would have been worth at least the $60K it fetched last year, IMO).  Heck, I regretted missing out on your splash back in 2011 and would have snapped it up in a heartbeat at $15K five years ago.  But, count me among those who have aged out of buying a lot stuff over the past few years.  

No doubt that if the really primo BWS Conan material ever hit the market that prices would go nuts.  That said, how much more nuts would they go for now vs. 5 years ago?  I'm aware of some krazy prices that were either offered or would have been offered had the pieces been available back then (e.g., my friend offered $35K for ANY page from Red Nails years ago and was turned down...and this isn't even the most surprising example).  I think the reality is that most of the BWS Conan market, not just the below-average examples, is flattish over the past 5 years and probably slightly down when you factor in inflation during this time.

Edited February 23, 2019 by delekkerste

[delekkerste]

1 hour ago, NelsonAI said:

Nostalgia aside, early BWS Conan art was a bad imitation of Kirby.  Even before the inkers got to it.

So no surprise that the greater demand is for BWS art in the later issues when he looked like a different artist especially when he inked his own work.

Most collectors want art from an artist's prime period.

Also no surprise that Wolverine is more popular than Conan.

BWS is an odd case, because there probably are a good number of people out there who prefer his 1980s/90s work over what I and many others would consider to be his prime period 1970s work.  I suspect a lot of it has to do with the fact that he worked on a lot of popular characters (Wolverine, X-Men, New Mutants, Conan again, etc.) later in his career, though, some many genuinely appreciate the aesthetics of his later style as well more than his earlier work.  

For me, personally, I really like his 1980s Marvel work, but, I prefer his Avengers #100 (June 1972) to the end of The Studio period (1979) work.  For me, that was his artistic prime period.    

[Brian Peck]

46 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

BWS is an odd case, because there probably are a good number of people out there who prefer his 1980s/90s work over what I and many others would consider to be his prime period 1970s work.  I suspect a lot of it has to do with the fact that he worked on a lot of popular characters (Wolverine, X-Men, New Mutants, Conan again, etc.) later in his career, though, some many genuinely appreciate the aesthetics of his later style as well more than his earlier work.  

For me, personally, I really like his 1980s Marvel work, but, I prefer his Avengers #100 (June 1972) to the end of The Studio period (1979) work.  For me, that was his artistic prime period.    

His anatomy improved so much from his 70s to 80s work.

[tth2]

11 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Dang, these John Buscema prices seem soft to me.  Can't believe that fresh-to-market Conan/Belit cover didn't hit $10K hammer - I would have gone nuts for that one 5 years ago when I was in the market for one. Conan Treasury edition cover hammers at $12K - lower end of FMV IMO.  Jungle Action #1 cover hammers at $8K.  A good Avengers 79 page hammers at $4K. 

Maybe people are finally waking up to the fact that Buscema is only an average artist. 

[tth2]

9 hours ago, Sideshow Bob said:

For the winners of the Camelot 3000 and Warlord covers, you can thank the impromptu meeting in my office that was initiated right at the start of the auction, and just let out!  Doh! 

If only there was a way to submit a bid in advance so you don't leave yourself exposed to unexpected unavailability during live bidding!

[tth2]

9 hours ago, Sideshow Bob said:

Honestly, knowing that there is NYC sales tax on top of the auction house vig is holding me back from bidding. Adding insult to injury, the fed tax laws that affected high state/local tax states like NY, and my buying is likely going to be dramatically curtailed going forward. 

It would be awesome if all of the high end bidders from high tax states like NY and CA begin to feel the same way. 

[tth2]

5 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

Regarding the BWS Conan market, I've always had a soft spot for the early stuff.  BUT, if I am putting my money where my mouth is, I would really only be a serious buyer for his later more mature work starting with Conan #19 (and to some extent, Frost Giants Daughter).  If Song of Red Sonja (#24) or Red Nails ever got broken up I think we'd see some serious interest and equally serious prices.  I really do see the charm in the early Conan stuff, but as an art collector, that's not where I'm placing my bets.

[stinkininkin]

1 hour ago, Brian Peck said:

His anatomy improved so much from his 70s to 80s work.

Goofy anatomy doesn't bother me if the work has a presence, power, drama and grace.  Having a unique voice is also a virtue, and once BWS ditched his most blatant Kirby roots, his stuff started to take off.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

6 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Sorry about this, Dino.  

Yeah, 30% gross/15% net return over 7+ years is not great, especially since all of that return came in the first 2-3 years of holding it. 

I hear what people are saying about aesthetics and preferring later BWS to earlier, but, this is something that has always been the case.  I mean, who doesn't love later BWS Conan over earlier?  It doesn't change the fact that the earlier material (Conan #1-15) was once solidly blue chip and that one could have sold the #5 splash for $15K all day long and maybe $20K+ on Sunday back in 2014 (the #5 cover back then would have been worth at least the $60K it fetched last year, IMO).  Heck, I regretted missing out on your splash back in 2011 and would have snapped it up in a heartbeat at $15K five years ago.  But, count me among those who have aged out of buying a lot stuff over the past few years.  

No doubt that if the really primo BWS Conan material ever hit the market that prices would go nuts.  That said, how much more nuts would they go for now vs. 5 years ago?  I'm aware of some krazy prices that were either offered or would have been offered had the pieces been available back then (e.g., my friend offered $35K for ANY page from Red Nails years ago and was turned down...and this isn't even the most surprising example).  I think the reality is that most of the BWS Conan market, not just the below-average examples, is flattish over the past 5 years and probably slightly down when you factor in inflation during this time.

It never ceases to amaze me how the market’s tastes change and evolve over time.  All we can do is buy what we love and hope for the best when it comes time to sell.  

[Rick2you2]

The Secret Origins story containing one of the Phantom Stranger's origins by Garcia Lopez ended up going for almost double what I expected for the break down price of its pages. Wow.

Nice story and art, but I didn't see that kind of love for it.

[tth2]

6 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

7 hours ago, Brian Peck said:

His anatomy improved so much from his 70s to 80s work.

Goofy anatomy doesn't bother me if the work has a presence, power, drama and grace.  Having a unique voice is also a virtue, and once BWS ditched his most blatant Kirby roots, his stuff started to take off.

[Drewsky]

8 hours ago, tth2 said:

Maybe people are finally waking up to the fact that Buscema is only an average artist. 

You mean brilliant, not average.  No offense, just teasing. You and everyone are entitled to their opinion on art. Buscema is Conan for me. There are many, many Conan examples available and lot's of the interested collectors may already have enough or that one great example and are not interested in more. I believe the character has tons of room to grow in the upcoming years and interest should/will be increasing with it.  

[jjonahjameson11]

8 hours ago, tth2 said:

Maybe people are finally waking up to the fact that Buscema is only an average artist. 

A very interesting comment.  Several years ago, I commented that John Buscema was one of the four pillars of the Silver Age Marvel Universe artists (the others being Ditko, Kirby, Romita Sr).  I suppose tastes change over time and I no longer see John Buscema's work as I once did.  I no longer wish to own a Buscema Conan cover as I once did, and I don't think about his artwork as much as I once did.

Perhaps John Buscema artwork appreciation/valuation has also 'jumped the shark', similar to some extent, as that of BWS Conan and his other early artwork?

[jjonahjameson11]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

The Secret Origins story containing one of the Phantom Stranger's origins by Garcia Lopez ended up going for almost double what I expected for the break down price of its pages. Wow.

Nice story and art, but I didn't see that kind of love for it.

Garcia Lopez is such an under-appreciated artist, and never gets the credit he is due, either on convention guest list billing or in the value of his artwork.  A brilliant artist in every respect.

[Rick2you2]

1 minute ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Garcia Lopez is such an under-appreciated artist, and never gets the credit he is due, either on convention guest list billing or in the value of his artwork.  A brilliant artist in every respect.

He is excellent, but a major jump in the price is unusual. This is. In bulk, 9 pages are biblical characters. Only the first page has an excellent splash of a comparatively minor character. Those other 9 pages, in bulk, I figured about $200 each (separately, a bit more).

[delekkerste]

8 hours ago, tth2 said:

If only there was a way to submit a bid in advance so you don't leave yourself exposed to unexpected unavailability during live bidding!

It surprises me as well that there are so many collectors out there who will only bid live on Heritage or snipe on ComicLink and won't trust leaving a bid in advance. I would say that more than half the time i have just put in my number and rolled the dice. 

8 hours ago, tth2 said:

It would be awesome if all of the high end bidders from high tax states like NY and CA begin to feel the same way. 

If I was still in my prime buying years, this would deter me from some marginal buys, but, it wouldn't be a be a dealbreaker overall. These days, though, it's a huge roadblock against buying anything that isn't either very cheap and/or super, super coveted. I mean, sure, you just factor it into your overall max price, but, it effectively lowers your max by about 10‰, which, in this competitive market, is probably the difference between winning and losing for many pieces.  For example, without the tax, I would have gone at least a half or full increment higher on that Tank Girl page yesterday above where it ended (might not have been enough to win it, but, at least I would have had a shot). 

Edited February 23, 2019 by delekkerste