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HA February Auction
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569 posts in this topic

53 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I understand that sometimes portraying the hero in a weakened position is not ideal, but, I think it's case by case

A collector once told me that he wasn't interested in the cover art to certain issues of Superman/Action.  He said Superman was always getting his butt kicked.  There are some exceptions, but I think he was basically referring to Superman 250 - 300 and Action Comics 400 - 435.  A prime example is the cover where Superman is kissing Star Sapphire's boot.

Here's a story from Tony Isabella:

http://tonyisabella.blogspot.com/2013/11/nick-cardy.html

 

Edited by Will_K
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20 minutes ago, Carlo M said:

UXM 251 is another great cover with weakened hero and yet would be highly coveted, I would presume.

Bondage Logan. :cloud9: 

14 minutes ago, First Upgrade said:

Another local original art commentator identified the Master of Kung Fu #116 cover which 'sold' [cheaply?] in the same HA auction, as having the same problem...just replace 'Conan' with Mr. Chi...

I think people are making too much of the Conan cover.  If it was just Conan in peril, I could see it, but, you buy the #97 because you want a Belit cover, and it's got a great image of Belit in action.  The MOKF cover has a weakened Shang-Chi and he's tiny, no less.  The excellent composition and detail probably saved it from going for even less. 

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4 hours ago, Will_K said:

A collector once told me that he wasn't interested in the cover art to certain issues of Superman/Action.  He said Superman was always getting his butt kicked.  There are some exceptions, but I think he was basically referring to Superman 250 - 300 and Action Comics 400 - 435.  A prime example is the cover where Superman is kissing Star Sapphire's boot.

Here's a story from Tony Isabella:

http://tonyisabella.blogspot.com/2013/11/nick-cardy.html

 

Maybe Superman is kinkier than we know.

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6 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I understand that sometimes portraying the hero in a weakened position is not ideal, but, I think it's case by case - there are plenty of such covers that I think prove to be exceptions to the rule (just off the top of my head, ASM #69 and SSOC #5).  I'd add this one to that exceptions list, as, IMO, the Frazetta homage and strong Belit in fighting action image cancels out any downside from bondage Conan (who looks quite defiant anyway).  But, obviously one's mileage may vary, diff'rent strokes for different folks, etc. 2c 

yeah that ASM #69 is nice :)

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8 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I understand that sometimes portraying the hero in a weakened position is not ideal, but, I think it's case by case - there are plenty of such covers that I think prove to be exceptions to the rule (just off the top of my head, ASM #69 and SSOC #5).  I'd add this one to that exceptions list, as, IMO, the Frazetta homage and strong Belit in fighting action image cancels out any downside from bondage Conan (who looks quite defiant anyway).  But, obviously one's mileage may vary, diff'rent strokes for different folks, etc. 2c 

Honestly, I think comparing the Conan cover to ASM 69 is REALLY jumping the shark and kind of skirting the point.  There are plenty of covers with the hero in a weakened state that I would find desirable -- that Conan doesn't happen to be one of them.

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5 hours ago, tth2 said:

By the way, can we now all agree that application of state taxes by Heritage had absolutely ZERO deterrent impact on bidding? 

I know for myself, it only comes in to play when I pay for my winnings and get to see how much I get $%#& by the government.  Oh well, at least I know the money will be responsibly spent :insane:

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4 hours ago, malvin said:

How do you know that those record prices would not have been even higher without the sales tax tax :p

Malvin 

I knew someone was going to say that! lol

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22 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

I know for myself, it only comes in to play when I pay for my winnings and get to see how much I get $%#& by the government.  Oh well, at least I know the money will be responsibly spent :insane:

lol

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6 hours ago, tth2 said:

By the way, can we now all agree that application of state taxes by Heritage had absolutely ZERO deterrent impact on bidding? 

I can't agree, though I don't know one way or another (unaffected personally).

Counterpoint to above: After all, much in the hobby (and the world, for that matter) is paid for with credit lines and trade not real 'cash' money. We all know money in your pocket (or bank account) is treated much more preciously than a credit line (or highly stepped up value trade), psychologically counter-intuitive this if an interest rate is attached, I know, but still..., and then too this hobby is a definitely luxury category and if not funded by (likely unaffordable in conservative fiscal management terms) credit than it's by disposable income well past basic needs. Taxation changes (like ever-expanding BP, etc) may not matter as much when the heart wants what the heart wants! Uh, that just means a lot of people are thinking with their their other head ;) while opening up their wallets in public.

In general capitalist (hooha swear word there!) economic theory tells us: taxation removes productive capital from the market thus tending to mute otherwise robust private sector activity. I think it matters but maybe not as much as non-hobby economists might expect...because of that whole other head aspect lol

Edited by vodou
clarity
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1 hour ago, tth2 said:

I knew someone was going to say that! lol

Except that you thought that it would be me! lol 

I think it has had some, but not a huge, impact.  It's probably curbed spending at least a little bit, on the margin. I mean, how can it not have, when there is another middleman to pay? That said, we're probably talking about prices being ~2-4% less as a result, which, in the molten, white-hot market we've had, I can see how it would largely go unnoticed. The imposition of sales taxes alone is not going to be enough to cause prices to drop a huge amount - like you said, it's just factored into people's bidding (though, forward-thinking buyers will realize that it's another hand in the till when it comes time to sell).

The imposition of 8% sales tax (obviously higher or lower in different areas, but, probably not a bad average), results in a 7.4% reduction in prices, everything else being equal. But, we know that it's not - some people (e.g., dealers) are exempt from sales tax, other people have already been subject for a while to sales tax and so it's already factored in, some may increase their budgets somewhat to account for the tax (though, others may pull back as a result), etc.  That said, some of the largest concentrations of buying power have been swept up in the expansion of sales tax collection (e.g., New Jersey), so, I suspect a modest 2-4% impact overall sounds like a reasonable estimate of price impact. 

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I bought something big at this Heritage auction.  It was something I really wanted for years.  In the amount I paid for the Heritage fees and the increased taxes, I would have used that money to buy something I am watching from another art dealer.  I like it and it may be gone by the time to get more money to buy it, but it is lower on my want list.  I think the taxes do take money out of the hobby.  

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7 hours ago, Peter L said:

I bought something big at this Heritage auction.  It was something I really wanted for years.  In the amount I paid for the Heritage fees and the increased taxes, I would have used that money to buy something I am watching from another art dealer.  I like it and it may be gone by the time to get more money to buy it, but it is lower on my want list.  I think the taxes do take money out of the hobby.  

Sorry to read of your woes Peter L.

I am always a friend to the hobby, even if few would call me their friend lol

My offer stands:

 

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Total Newbie to this market, I know nothing & have assumed its just best to buy what I like & enjoy it at this point in my life. However, I have collected comics for 40+ yrs, toys for 25 yrs and after teaching I started a successful small toy & comic shop in south NJ for the past 14yrs ( yes I still love the smell of old comics). and after reading this entire thread I see the more things change the more they stay the same no matter what the hobby............. Meaning this I am amazed & bewildered at the way some collectors look at just one sale or one auction & can determine this toy, this comic or this artist is now soft & on the way down or is now hot & on the way up. We all know there are trends in every hobby ( I still have all 30 copies of Dazzler 1) commenting on some high or low results is one thing But making a market prediction based on the latest Heritage, CL or CC auctions good or bad is just..........absured imo. For example, I just read for 3+ pages that Big John Buscema was on the way down or better yet that the 1970s comic art market could be trending downward ( you got all that from one auction?) really? So I just watched the Splash for  FF #112 hammer out at 43K + seems pretty good to me & I know crapola about this hobby but I know 43K is a bunch of greenbacks in the real world. So because of that sale is Big John now hot again? That's just silly & this is just one example but after 40+ yrs of collecting comics, I would suggest that to base anything even representative of where any market is trending or in this case artist be it Jack Kirby to Jay Scott Cambell it requires more input or data then one, two or even 3 auctions. I still remember when a lot of comic collectors said Golden age was on its way out in the 1990s Same guys who now own 500 copies of Shreken #1.

Edited by Frank Mozz
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6 hours ago, Frank Mozz said:

I would suggest that to base anything even representative of where any market is trending or in this case artist be it Jack Kirby to Jay Scott Cambell it requires more input or data then one, two or even 3 auctions. I still remember when a lot of comic collectors said Golden age was on its way out in the 1990s Same guys who now own 500 copies of Shreken #1.

Wait, are you suggesting that level-headed commentary should rely on market analysis, longitudinal study, patience and the slow, careful accumulation of knowledge?  But...but...what would i do then with my ignore button? 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Frank Mozz said:

Total Newbie to this market, I know nothing & have assumed its just best to buy what I like & enjoy it at this point in my life. However, I have collected comics for 40+ yrs, toys for 25 yrs and after teaching I started a successful small toy & comic shop in south NJ for the past 14yrs ( yes I still love the smell of old comics). and after reading this entire thread I see the more things change the more they stay the same no matter what the hobby............. Meaning this I am amazed & bewildered at the way some collectors look at just one sale or one auction & can determine this toy, this comic or this artist is now soft & on the way down or is now hot & on the way up. We all know there are trends in every hobby ( I still have all 30 copies of Dazzler 1) commenting on some high or low results is one thing But making a market prediction based on the latest Heritage, CL or CC auctions good or bad is just..........absured imo. For example, I just read for 3+ pages that Big John Buscema was on the way down or better yet that the 1970s comic art market could be trending downward ( you got all that from one auction?) really? So I just watched the Splash for  FF #112 hammer out at 43K + seems pretty good to me & I know crapola about this hobby but I know 43K is a bunch of greenbacks in the real world. So because of that sale is Big John now hot again? That's just silly & this is just one example but after 40+ yrs of collecting comics, I would suggest that to base anything even representative of where any market is trending or in this case artist be it Jack Kirby to Jay Scott Cambell it requires more input or data then one, two or even 3 auctions. I still remember when a lot of comic collectors said Golden age was on its way out in the 1990s Same guys who now own 500 copies of Shreken #1.

In the abstract, what you are saying makes sense. But look at it a bit differently: are people making predictions accurate or not? Some of them know things about private sales, others just develop a sixth sense about it. I have been watching Phantom Stranger pages byJim Aparo, and I think they have stabilized for now, with prices for typical stuff down slightly. That’s just based on a small sample of less than half a dozen. It’s a small market, and it just feels right.

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1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

In the abstract, what you are saying makes sense. But look at it a bit differently: are people making predictions accurate or not? Some of them know things about private sales, others just develop a sixth sense about it. I have been watching Phantom Stranger pages byJim Aparo, and I think they have stabilized for now, with prices for typical stuff down slightly. That’s just based on a small sample of less than half a dozen. It’s a small market, and it just feels right.

your 100% correct. But my post was based on the conclusions made in this post based on the recent HA  auction, I assume like comics & toy collectors long-time collectors & dealers have a much broader understanding on the current pulse of the OA market. However, that was not included in many of the posts I read and seemed much more focused on just the results of the recent HA auction. For example one of the post make the point that BWS splash from issue # 5 did not do as well as was expected, ok fair enough but IMHO it is a very weak example of Smiths Conan and surely not reason enough to assume BWS while not as hot as say 5 yrs ago ( I just found this out from a long time collector here on the boards) is on his way to being a bust. To me that's just absurd, I mean does anyone here not think if a classic prime BWS Conan cover came up it would not do quite well? My general point being this there are trends in every hobby highs and lows but for 40 yrs I have suffered the doomsayers prediction about everything from Star Wars to Golden age comics and after a while it just gets old. Heres my prediction based on 40 yrs of being in the collectible arena 50 yrs from now there will be a market for quality CONAN art  ( by the way it's one of the hottest current new Marvel comics)  vintage Star Wars figures and  Action comic  PS there is no hope for 1950s Westerns lol.

Edited by Frank Mozz
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