HA February Auction
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On 3/10/2019 at 7:00 AM, vodou said:

Sorry to read of your woes Peter L.

I am always a friend to the hobby, even if few would call me their friend lol

My offer stands:

 

I missed your offer.  What is your offer?

I am really blessed to have finally gotten a piece I wanted for over 10 years at the last HA auction and that I was able to outbid the other people who wanted it.  But there is less money out there because of the taxes and fees.  If I really wanted the other pieces I would find the money to buy them.  But I think these lesser buys are going to be overlooked with the taxes.

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I'm in the JB fan club but I agree that the fact that he was so prolific in the end tends to hurt him in the eyes of some.  But there are still a large number of very memorable, well done covers, splashes and well-executed panel pages.  And I'd take even middling work by JB over a ton of other artists.  On the flipside, as no longer a new collector, I try to only collect what I view as the most nostalgic or highest quality JB I can find (and then mostly limited to Avengers and some miscellaneous non-Avengers pieces).

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Posted (edited)

I’d be willing to bet though that even amongst the members of the JB fan club , even among those people that have his in their top five, that he’s nobody’s (or almost nobody’s ) actual favorite .   

Thats the point being made.   Maybe you think he’s average, maybe you think he’s good, maybe you think he’s kinda bad.    But nobody thinks he is the GREATEST unless they’re blind :whistle:

he just doesn’t elicit that kind of reaction.   There are probably lesser artists with bigger fan bases.   That’s a function of his work taking few to no risks IMO.   Safe, adequate, competent , yes.   Breakthroughs, innovation, unique style... no.

Good, competent craftsman, for better, or for worse.

Edited by Bronty

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5 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I’d be willing to bet though that even amongst the members of the JB fan club , even among those people that have his in their top five, that he’s nobody’s (or almost nobody’s ) actual favorite .   

Thats the point being made.   Maybe you think he’s average, maybe you think he’s good, maybe you think he’s kinda bad.    But nobody thinks he is the GREATEST unless they’re blind :whistle:

he just doesn’t elicit that kind of reaction.   There are probably lesser artists with bigger fan bases.   That’s a function of his work taking few to no risks IMO.   Safe, adequate, competent , yes.   Breakthroughs, innovation, unique style... no.

Good, competent craftsman, for better, or for worse.

I can think of at least a few JB4Lyfe fanbois right off the top of my head...I suspect you'll get at least one to chime in here soon... :whistle: 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

 

 

err.png

Edited by Bronty

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1 hour ago, Bronty said:

I’d be willing to bet though that even amongst the members of the JB fan club , even among those people that have his in their top five, that he’s nobody’s (or almost nobody’s ) actual favorite .   

Thats the point being made.   Maybe you think he’s average, maybe you think he’s good, maybe you think he’s kinda bad.    But nobody thinks he is the GREATEST unless they’re blind :whistle:

he just doesn’t elicit that kind of reaction.   There are probably lesser artists with bigger fan bases.   That’s a function of his work taking few to no risks IMO.   Safe, adequate, competent , yes.   Breakthroughs, innovation, unique style... no.

Good, competent craftsman, for better, or for worse.

I do believe there are several collectors for whom he is their actual favorite over all others.

And this - "Good, competent craftsman, for better, or for worse."   -  seems to really devalue his skill and contributions to Marvel (including to a lesser extent his effect on future artists--which may not be as profound as others I grant you).   And there is too huge a conceptual drop-off from not being a ton of collector's GOAT to being just a "good, competent craftsman."   I can recall a packed large college classroom on Long Island to hear him speak at a science fiction convention (IIRC in the late 80s)--hardly the reception for a run of the mill artist.

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Just now, Ironmandrd said:

hardly the reception for a run of the mill artist.

Mostly agree with what you said but always, always remember the crowd is there for MARVEL artist John Buscema not artist John Buscema.

If he had worked in advertising, your friends that think he's the GOAT wouldn't know his name

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1 minute ago, Bronty said:

Mostly agree with what you said but always, always remember the crowd is there for MARVEL artist John Buscema not artist John Buscema.

If he had worked in advertising, your friends that think he's the GOAT wouldn't know his name

Yes, of course.  But who else is talking about anything else?  No one is saying that JB influenced 1950s pulp covers or 1970s sci fi covers etc. 

But BTW, those Print Ad advertising execs on Madison Ave would probably think his fluid style make him a superstar compared to others  (thumbsu (not that I know much about print ad superstars from the 60s-80s :))

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Posted (edited)
 
 
 
 
 
4
5 hours ago, Bronty said:

I’d be willing to bet though that even amongst the members of the JB fan club , even among those people that have his in their top five, that he’s nobody’s (or almost nobody’s ) actual favorite .   

Thats the point being made.   Maybe you think he’s average, maybe you think he’s good, maybe you think he’s kinda bad.    But nobody thinks he is the GREATEST unless they’re blind :whistle:

he just doesn’t elicit that kind of reaction.   There are probably lesser artists with bigger fan bases.   That’s a function of his work taking few to no risks IMO.   Safe, adequate, competent , yes.   Breakthroughs, innovation, unique style... no.

Good, competent craftsman, for better, or for worse.

Beatles Stones, Zeppelin, RC, Coke or Pepsi, Morales, Parker, Spider Gwen, Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman....really??? Way too new here to understand all the negativity towards a man that many COMIC COLLECTORS consider one of the true legends of the Marvel Silver, Bronze & Copper age? Maybe some of the elite OA collectors can explain it to me as I am just not getting it? Are we talking about huge drops in the price of his art? Are we looking at a few vocal haters? is it a joke? PS. I can not speak for OA I can confirm that after selling comics in the store for 14 yrs we had several collectors who put Big John as there #1 artist and I can recall many a conversation about JB being the best artist to ever work on Conan. On a personal note: when I read Good, competent craftsman, for better, or for worse I don't think of JB more Don Heck and several others but not JB  in my mind there are many examples of his art just being much more than just competent but that just my personal opinion.

 

Edited by Frank Mozz

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bronty said:

Mostly agree with what you said but always, always remember the crowd is there for MARVEL artist John Buscema not artist John Buscema.

If he had worked in advertising, your friends that think he's the GOAT wouldn't know his name

Couldn't that be said for almost every comic artist? If Jack Kirby had worked in NY drawing newspaper ads and Stan Lee wrote the text............ it would be Stan & Jack who? wouldn't it?

Edited by Frank Mozz

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18 minutes ago, Frank Mozz said:

Beatles Stones, Zeppelin, RC, Coke or Pepsi, Morales, Parker, Spider Gwen, Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman....really??? Way too new here to understand all the negativity towards a man that many COMIC COLLECTORS consider one of the true legends of the Marvel Silver, Bronze & Copper age? Maybe some of the elite OA collectors can explain it to me as I am just not getting it? Are we talking about huge drops in the price of his art? Are we looking at a few vocal haters? is it a joke? PS. I can not speak for OA I can confirm that after selling comics in the store for 14 yrs we had several collectors who put Big John as there #1 artist and I can recall many a conversation about JB being the best artist to ever work on Conan. On a personal note: when I read Good, competent craftsman, for better, or for worse I don't think of JB more Don Heck and several others but not JB  in my mind there are many examples of his art just being much more than just competent but that just my personal opinion.

 

Difficult for me to say.  I started collecting comics in '82 and the #1 artists that my friends and I followed were Byrne, Romita Jr, MIller, Sienkiewicz, Golden, and to a lesser extent, Kirby, Ditko, Wrightson, Adams. 

Big John Buscema didn't even crack our top 10.  But tastes change and as we matured we came to appreciate other artists.  I liked Bucema's work, but he has never been in my Top 5.  (shrug)

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12 minutes ago, Frank Mozz said:

Couldn't that be said for almost every comic artist? If Jack Kirby had worked in NY drawing newspaper ads and Stan Lee wrote the text............ it would be Stan & Jack who? wouldn't it?

 How about Frazetta or Bernie Wrightson ? They each would each get a few GOAT votes without anyone being able to say that Marvel was the reason it happened. 

My vote is worth very little as I didn’t read comics in the 60s and 70s. Some 80s but mostly 90s.

That being said now that I’ve started collecting art you just can’t help but learn a little bit about these guys outside your comfort zone as you go. When I scroll over auctions on HA and CL several images that I’ve never seen before will stop me in my tracks..

!! WOW !! 

That doesn’t ever happen to me on Bucema’s pieces. Perhaps he is an acquired taste or you had to be there to fully appreciate his work. To me it looks good but doesn’t wow and stop me in my tracks. 

I think what Bronty is saying (if I may put words in his mouth) is that if every fan voted for 5 or 10 favorites for GOAT that JB might rate well in the rankings. However, if people only had 1 vote for GOAT that JB wouldn’t rate nearly as well. 

 

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53 minutes ago, Frank Mozz said:

Beatles Stones, Zeppelin, RC, Coke or Pepsi, Morales, Parker, Spider Gwen, Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman....really??? Way too new here to understand all the negativity towards a man that many COMIC COLLECTORS consider one of the true legends of the Marvel Silver, Bronze & Copper age? Maybe some of the elite OA collectors can explain it to me as I am just not getting it? Are we talking about huge drops in the price of his art? Are we looking at a few vocal haters? is it a joke? PS. I can not speak for OA I can confirm that after selling comics in the store for 14 yrs we had several collectors who put Big John as there #1 artist and I can recall many a conversation about JB being the best artist to ever work on Conan. On a personal note: when I read Good, competent craftsman, for better, or for worse I don't think of JB more Don Heck and several others but not JB  in my mind there are many examples of his art just being much more than just competent but that just my personal opinion.

 

I don’t think these types of conversations are mostly focused on dumping on artists. To me it feels more like a group of collectors objectively trying to sort out or explain current after market pricing trends. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, buyatari said:

 How about Frazetta or Bernie Wrightson ? They each would each get a few GOAT votes without anyone being able to say that Marvel was the reason it happened. 

My vote is worth very little as I didn’t read comics in the 60s and 70s. Some 80s but mostly 90s.

That being said now that I’ve started collecting art you just can’t help but learn a little bit about these guys outside your comfort zone as you go. When I scroll over auctions on HA and CL several images that I’ve never seen before will stop me in my tracks..

!! WOW !! 

That doesn’t ever happen to me on Bucema’s pieces. Perhaps he is an acquired taste or you had to be there to fully appreciate his work. To me it looks good but doesn’t wow and stop me in my tracks. 

I think what Bronty is saying (if I may put words in his mouth) is that if every fan voted for 5 or 10 favorites for GOAT that JB might rate well in the rankings. However, if people only had 1 vote for GOAT that JB wouldn’t rate nearly as well. 

 

So really it's just your personal opinion based on the era you grew up reading comic & really that explains a lot. I started reading comics in 1979/80 so my main area of interest is in the 1980s. However, it was a time when most collectors were able to acquire all but the most expensive silver & bronze age back issues on even a minimum wage high school job. So I think many of the collectors of my era have a much different view & appreciation of the Legends of the silver age. I would also admit by the mid/late 1990s I had lost interest in most of the new books of your era with the exception of a few quality standout artist & writers (  I think we would all agree there was a lot of, polybagged trading card, glow in the dark, holographic, embossed 3D substandard art in the 1990s, plus I am still not a fan of the high-quality shiny paper). So 40 yrs later I am still saying WOW to Kirby, Ditko, Steranko, Kane, Kubert JRS, Adams, Smith & yes Big John and I think he could sit at that table any day & you would be surprised at where people put him, just my 2 cents. Anyone remember Eclipso #1 with the jewel on the cover or Spiderman # 400 ahhhhhhh just shoot me now I bought 5 copies

Edited by Frank Mozz

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15 hours ago, delekkerste said:

 

I'd say that nearly $60K for a Hulk #181 9.8 is the stupidest thing I've seen in the comic/OA hobby in 2019, except that a Werewolf by Night #32 9.8 just sold for $50K the other week. :facepalm: :facepalm: 

 

Wow. I wonder how many WBN covers or splashes one could buy instead of dropping 50K on a comic.

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16 hours ago, batman_fan said:

 

798FFB7F-119A-4C8F-91D0-CF43E677A7E9.jpeg

I think in Webster's, this picture is shown next to the definition of "Perfectly adequate". :baiting:

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6 hours ago, tth2 said:

I think in Webster's, this picture is shown next to the definition of "Perfectly adequate". :baiting:

:cry:

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11 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Difficult for me to say.  I started collecting comics in '82 and the #1 artists that my friends and I followed were Byrne, Romita Jr, MIller, Sienkiewicz, Golden, and to a lesser extent, Kirby, Ditko, Wrightson, Adams. 

Big John Buscema didn't even crack our top 10.  But tastes change and as we matured we came to appreciate other artists.  I liked Bucema's work, but he has never been in my Top 5.  (shrug)

I'm in the exact same boat and started at the same time.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Ironmandrd said:

 

1  But BTW, those Print Ad advertising execs on Madison Ave would probably think his fluid style make him a superstar compared to others  (thumbsu

 

2   (not that I know much about print ad superstars from the 60s-80s :))

1. I highly doubt that.

2.  Neither does anybody else.   After all, they didn't work at marvel.  Outside of a few guys like Struzan who are both talented and good at self promotion, a lot of them are anonymous because their work wasn't credited on the opening page every month.    That's neither here nor there, except to say he's a good artist and all but he's no exceptional talent, I'm sorry.   And I don't think he'd make a good tea trolley.

I enjoy some of his work and some of it is meh.   But as Adam said, never, and I mean never, do I go HOLY SMOKES WOW when I look at something he's done.   

And quite honestly I'm at a loss as to how that statement could be controversial in the least.   Its self evident.   

 

Edited by Bronty

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