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[Bird]

7 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

although you think I am completely wrong, you actually know that I am completely right

can we get a custom title here?

[batman_fan]

15 hours ago, tth2 said:

I don't know, there's a very strong sheep mentality amongst collectors when it comes to CGC. 

They say a certain practice is okay, and the market quickly adopts it. 

They say a certain practice is not okay, and the market quickly shuns it.

They give a collection "pedigree" status, and suddenly it's prized by collectors.

They say a collection formerly given "pedigree" status is no longer a recognized pedigree, and suddenly collectors no longer prize the books.

They don't recognize a collection as a "pedigree" even though it should be a pedigree, and immediately everyone ceases to care about its provenance, and the origins of books from the collection quickly get lost as they get dispersed.

You missed one big one Tim

They say "look, new labels" and suddenly everyone needs the new labels

[lou_fine]

16 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

23 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Apparently, they've also included leaf casting as part of the Conserved category. 

Not entirely sure what this procedure is, but based upon what I remember reading, it definitely appears to be a relatively invasive procedure.  

It is also completely reversible with no loss of original material. I don't think CGC categorizes leaf casting as conservation but there is definitely an argument to be made that they should

Yes, they do as they clearly state that "some leaf casting" falls under Conservation repairs in accordance to their own Restoration Grading Scale below:

https://www.cgccomics.com/pdf/restoration-grading-scale-handout.pdf

Based upon their listed definitions, I assume there must be some leaf casting that falls under Conservation while a different portion would fall under Restoration.  

The part that I don't understand is that they clearly seem to indicate that any "Married pages or cover" would fall under Restoration repairs, and yet their labels would clearly indicate otherwise.  

Of course, this whole thing runs contra to the updated definitions in the Overstreet guide anyways, as they clearly state that the addition of any missing paper or reinforcement would fall under their definition of Restoration.    

[lou_fine]

17 hours ago, Aman619 said:

On 12/14/2019 at 1:10 PM, MasterChief said:

Your conclusion is very perceptive.  

Ah, that’s just a bit too cynical for me.  Maybe, maybe if Matt were still on his own it might have played out like you suggest.  But he was already at CGC at the time, and the Company has larger concerns for their grading reputation at stake. Yes he was helpful to them as CGC is with many people in efforts to get more slabbing.  But what the Meyers were doing with the books was way far and beyond restoration methods.  

I would tend to agree with your point of view here as I believe the final product was more like extensive, extensive, extensive restoration in the end.  

I somehow believe if Matt and CCS had continue to work with the Meyers, the final product would not have been the same and more like extensive, extensive restoration in the end.  It seems that the biggest bone of contention was the type and extent of glossing agent used as what the Meyers ended up with was simply too much gloss to the point that nobody could tell what part of the book was original and at what part the restoration or recreation began.  

To their credit though, they clearly disclosed what they were doing and seemed to take almost countless pictures of the books as they were going though the process.  Apparently, they were more than willing to share these photos with any and all parties that were interested.  Definitely didn't appear to be some comic book mechanic hiding in their darkened dungeon manipulating books and then trying to foist them onto an unsuspecting marketplace as unrestored books.  

My suspicion though is that if they had kept working with Matt on this process to come up with a better balance, they would most likely still be working on it today with no final product to show for it.  After all, we all know how busy Matt is with all of his other ventures, as clearly evident by the current status of the Pedigree Book which was supposed to have been completed well over a decade ago.    

Edited December 15, 2019 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

22 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

I honestly think these books would NOT have caught on, even if there had been a loving relationship between the Meyers and CGC/CCS.

I definitely would tend to agree with you that for the purists and many of the true collectors, these books would not have caught on.  

My bet though is that money wins out in the end as it usually does and if CGC gives its blessing to this kind of procedure, you'll see a certain segment of the players in the marketplace jump onto the bandwagon.  Similar to what happened with stand alone pressing about 15 years ago when CGC declared it as nothing more than "maximization of potential" and all of a sudden, everybody could see themselves diving in and out of their money bin like good old Uncle Scrooge.    

[lou_fine]

7 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

Again, how can parts from one book joined to another be considered 'Conservation'

 

Well, apparently the CGC Restoration Grading Scale would also agree with your point of view here.   

Of course, if you take a look at some of their labels, you would get a completely different story though.    

[lou_fine]

7 hours ago, AnkurJ said:

FYI I’ve seen cgc grade books with resto by the Meyers.

 

6 hours ago, jabats said:

If I am remembering correctly there was a thread a while back about how CGC was grading IGB books again.

 

6 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

Could CGC have started accepting stuff from the Meyers again ? They probably could if the Meyers worked their art but not to the point of exaggeration. Looks like they found that balance.

Yes, I clearly remember a thread talking about CGC accepting IGB books for grading again.  

Not so sure about them finding the right balance or not.  Since they was in the middle of a lawsuit with the Meyers at the time, I have the feeling it was probably more of a strategic legal move suggested to them by their lawyers to make it easier for them to present their side of the case somehow.    

[porcupine48]

Whoa,misleading thread title.Some good reads in here 

More zingers please.

[woowoo]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

I would tend to agree with your point of view here as I believe the final product was more like extensive, extensive, extensive restoration in the end.  

I somehow believe if Matt and CCS had continue to work with the Meyers, the final product would not have been the same and more like extensive, extensive restoration in the end.  It seems that the biggest bone of contention was the type and extent of glossing agent used as what the Meyers ended up with was simply too much gloss to the point that nobody could tell what part of the book was original and at what part the restoration or recreation began.  

To their credit though, they clearly disclosed what they were doing and seemed to take almost countless pictures of the books as they were going though the process.  Apparently, they were more than willing to share these photos with any and all parties that were interested.  Definitely didn't appear to be some comic book mechanic hiding in their darkened dungeon manipulating books and then trying to foist them onto an unsuspecting marketplace as unrestored books.  

My suspicion though is that if they had kept working with Matt on this process to come up with a better balance, they would most likely still be working on it today with no final product to show for it.  After all, we all know how busy Matt is with all of his other ventures, as clearly evident by the current status of the Pedigree Book which was supposed to have been completed well over a decade ago.    

I am now drinking coffee just to try and keep up with you guy's

[Get Marwood & I]

2 hours ago, batman_fan said:

17 hours ago, tth2 said:

I don't know, there's a very strong sheep mentality amongst collectors when it comes to CGC. 

They say a certain practice is okay, and the market quickly adopts it. 

They say a certain practice is not okay, and the market quickly shuns it.

They give a collection "pedigree" status, and suddenly it's prized by collectors.

They say a collection formerly given "pedigree" status is no longer a recognized pedigree, and suddenly collectors no longer prize the books.

They don't recognize a collection as a "pedigree" even though it should be a pedigree, and immediately everyone ceases to care about its provenance, and the origins of books from the collection quickly get lost as they get dispersed.

You missed one big one Tim

They say "look, new labels" and suddenly everyone needs the new labels

They're quite good at convincing people that design flaws are 'normal and acceptable' too.

Note: Segment percentages are illustrative and not to actual scale

[woowoo]

2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

They're quite good at convincing people what design flaws are 'normal and acceptable' too.

Note: Segment percentages are illustrative and not to actual scale

That's the Pence ver

[batman_fan]

8 minutes ago, woowoo said:

I am now drinking coffee just to try and keep up with you guy's

I actually don't think it is coffee you should be drinking

[woowoo]

13 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

I actually don't think it is coffee you should be drinking

Takes a lot to get a Buzz .Reading last 2 pages made me re thing my thoughts

[Phill the Governor]

On 12/14/2019 at 3:08 PM, Zolnerowich said:

But seriously, returning to a recent theme in this thread, how in the world does a book with a married back cover receive a “conserved” grade? Not to mention, as in the fugly 3.5 above, when it also includes pieces added to cover and interior, tear seals, cover reinforced, etc.??? 

I actually did the work on this book (The Detective 29).

And everything that was done fell well within the realm of what CGC says is "Conserved". I think that people aren't educated enough about conservation and just start screaming from the rooftops as if a book is being passed off as something other than what the label says.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Phill the Governor
added words

[Dr. Love]

54 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, I clearly remember a thread talking about CGC accepting IGB books for grading again.  

Not so sure about them finding the right balance or not.  Since they was in the middle of a lawsuit with the Meyers at the time, I have the feeling it was probably more of a strategic legal move suggested to them by their lawyers to make it easier for them to present their side of the case somehow.    

Your feeling doesn't seem right, as apparently they still are in the middle of that lawsuit.  As per Zaid:

"I wanted to alert everyone to a decision that was issued by the Pennsylvania Superior Court, which is the appellate court that heard the appeal in the current lawsuit, on October 18, 2019. The Court has reversed the decision of the trial court to dismiss the case outright on summary judgment. This decision did not determine the liability of any party but held that as a matter of law the lower court should not have reached the decisions it did, i.e., the decisions were for the jury to determine rather than the court."

Zaid being Zaid:  "I can state outright that we believe the Superior Court decision contained numerous and significant errors of fact and law."

Get ready for a quiet settlement?  "The defending parties are considering all available options as to next steps."

[lou_fine]

46 minutes ago, woowoo said:

1 hour ago, batman_fan said:

I actually don't think it is coffee you should be drinking

Takes a lot to get a Buzz .Reading last 2 pages made me re thing my thoughts

Who cares about the last 2 pages.  

You should go back and read the whole entire 45 pages of the original thread.    

[lou_fine]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, I clearly remember a thread talking about CGC accepting IGB books for grading again.  

Not so sure about them finding the right balance or not.  Since they was in the middle of a lawsuit with the Meyers at the time, I have the feeling it was probably more of a strategic legal move suggested to them by their lawyers to make it easier for them to present their side of the case somehow.    

Your feeling doesn't seem right, as apparently they still are in the middle of that lawsuit.  As per Zaid:

Well aware of the fact that they are still in the middle of their lawsuit.  

As we all know, these kinds of lawsuits usually takes years to settle and nowhere in my post did I imply that the lawsuit was over or had been settled.      

[woowoo]

2 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Who cares about the last 2 pages.  

You should go back and read the whole entire 45 pages of the original thread.    

[lou_fine]

15 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

To the general collector out there that does not know of this forum, they were oblivious to the story of the Meyers and their techniques. When the first books started surfacing they actually had good sales results. Metro featured them in their auctions. They were a novelty. GA and SA super keys grading 9.4 some even in 9.6. No one had really seen any restored books look so pristine and grade so high before. Plus CBCS was new to the game, opinions hadn't been formed yet. Then more and more copies started showing up, in even higher grades. People stopped showing as much interest and prices took a hit.Today the general collector does not care for these books anymore and those that bought them can't get rid of them, even at rock bottom prices.

I think what actually happened is more closely aligned with Tim's line of thinking.

I think he nailed it when he basically said that if CGC says a certain practice is okay, then everybody is quick to accept it and jump onto the bandwagon.  If CGC says a certain practice is not okay, then the CGC acolyte base with their daily dose of CGC Kool-Aid is quick to shun or deride it as nothing more than a scourge to the marketplace.  

For example, I still remember how most of the board members here use to think of Borock as almost God's gift to grading and seemingly bow down at his feet to whatever words of wisdom he would be giving out to the masses.  And yet now that he is working for the other guys, it almost seems like he's totally incompetent when it comes to grading and probably couldn't tell the difference between a 2.0 graded book from a 9.0 graded book even if his life depended upon it.   

Edited December 15, 2019 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, porcupine48 said:

Whoa,misleading thread title.Some good reads in here 

Well, that's really CC's fault because we've got another 3 long months to go before their next Event Auction.    

What else are we going to talk about in the meantime to keep ourselves entertained.  

Did you happen to noticed that the original 45 page thread also started in December in the dead of winter and during the long lull between major auctions. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by lou_fine