Bob Layton taking Co-Creator Credit for Iron Man? Gone too far in my opinion. 3 3

[kav]

14 minutes ago, newshane said:

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[Logan510]

Can we please get back the 1st world business of Bob Layton trying to fool an entire generation into believing he created Iron man and in turn stealing billions of dollars from Disney?

This is serious business, seriously.

[ExNihilo]

1 hour ago, Logan510 said:

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

Agreed, but "getting to 9 finals" is a better metric than "getting to 6 finals".  Sitting at home (or playing baseball) isn't better than playing in the finals.

Ok, so I guess that Jerry West who is 1-8 in the finals is above Jordan as well. My bad.

Boards talk about Layton, I don't care.

Boards talk about Jordan, I'm all in.

I always cringe when people mention Championships.  Robert Horry has 7 rings, does that make him one of the best.  The only time rings makes sense is when mentioning Bill Russell (11 rings in 13 seasons).  With that out of the way, what metrics do you use to measure Jordan vs Lebron?  A lot of what gets overlooked are intangibles.

The era in which Jordan played featured suffocating defenses.  If Lebron played then, his offensive numbers would certainly be down.

Jordan elevated the play of those around him.  Lebron doesn't.  Jordan and Pippen spent hours before and after practices going one on one.  Pippen has said going up against the best made him better.  Lebron never elevated anyone.  D.Wade was already a champion and highly regarded guard.  Kevin Love and Chris Bosh by and large remained the same above average players they were before.  And it's the same story with Kobe.  Hell, Kobe gets bashed for not being a great teammate on the practice floor.  If you weren't at his level, then you were just some scrub.

League rules changed BECAUSE of Jordan.

Jordan played against the all time greats at a time when there was more parity in the league.  He was part of a team in which the core was built from within.  Sure, guys like Rodman were brought in during free agency, but it's nothing as egregious as Lebron did in Miami and Cleveland building his "Big3" in each city.

Jordan's greatest asset was his fire and will.  No other player has played with that level of grit or intensity.  Lebron wilts in the big moments.  Jordan elevated.  I get it, Lebron's a freak of nature.  One of the greatest of all time.  But there's only one GOAT and it ain't him.

But apologies...back to Bob Layton, co-creator of Iron Man, Batman, The Smurfs, and the Ninja Turtles (among others).

Edited January 2, 2019 by ExNihilo

[telerites]

16 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

But apologies...back to Bob Layton, co-creator of Iron Man, Batman, The Smurfs, and the Ninja Turtles (among others).

And the NBA.  

[PopKulture]

32 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

But there's only one GOAT and it ain't him.

I shouldn't take the bait, but I will.  

It's neither James nor Jordan: the best body of work for a basketball player is Lew Alcindor aka. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. High school. College. Professional. You'll see he compares more than favorably on almost any of the aforementioned metrics, as well as one little career NBA stat: HE SCORED THE MOST POINTS EVER! 

Take a gander at what Alcindor did in college and even high school, and Jordan isn't even in the conversation. I mean, Jordan wasn't even the best player on his college team, and I say all of this as a Chicagoan, born-and-raised. Jordan had a darn dominant ten years, yes, but Wilt Chamberlain was more "unstoppable" during his best decade, and even the inevitable championship comparison breaks down against what the Celtics had built in a pre-free agency era.

Jordan, I will agree, was the best marketed.  

Edited January 2, 2019 by PopKulture

[newshane]

3 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

I shouldn't take the bait, but I will.  

It's neither James nor Jordan: the best body of work for a basketball player is Lew Alcindor aka. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. High school. College. Professional. You'll see he compares more than favorably on almost any of the aforementioned metrics, as well as one little career NBA stat: HE SCORED THE MOST POINTS EVER! 

Take a gander at what Alcindor did in college and even high school, and Jordan isn't even in the conversation. I mean, Jordan wasn't even the best player on his college team, and I say all of this as a Chicagoan, born-and-raised. Jordan had a darn dominant ten years, yes, but Wilt Chamberlain was more "unstoppable" during his best decade, and even the inevitable championship comparison breaks down against what the Celtics had built in a pre-free agency era.

Jordan, I will agree, was the best marketed.  

Now THIS is a man with a clue. 

No offense intended to those who disagree with me.

I still think Jordan is number one, but KAJ is the serious contender here, not LJ. Like I said, the game was very different back in the day. 

I also like Magic and Bill Russell better. 

I'd put LJ in the top ten, which is an honor considering he is still going strong. If he wins a few more championships while maintaining his current level of play, we can talk about LJ. 

[Bird]

7 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

I shouldn't take the bait, but I will.  

It's neither James nor Jordan: the best body of work for a basketball player is Lew Alcindor aka. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. High school. College. Professional. You'll see he compares more than favorably on almost any of the aforementioned metrics, as well as one little career NBA stat: HE SCORED THE MOST POINTS EVER! 

Take a gander at what Alcindor did in college and even high school, and Jordan isn't even in the conversation. I mean, Jordan wasn't even the best player on his college team, and I say all of this as a Chicagoan, born-and-raised. Jordan had a darn dominant ten years, yes, but Wilt Chamberlain was more "unstoppable" during his best decade, and even the inevitable championship comparison breaks down against what the Celtics had built in a pre-free agency era.

Jordan, I will agree, was the best marketed.  

It is Wilt, the most physically dominant player ever. Wilt is the GOAT all the way. Lead the league in total assists from the center position because he wanted a challenge other than scoring!?! C'mon now!

[newshane]

Just now, Bird said:

It is Wilt, the most physically dominant player ever. Wilt is the GOAT all the way. Lead the league in total assists from the center position because he wanted a challenge other than scoring!?! C'mon now!

Another monster. 

[PopKulture]

Plus I will add that it's a generational thing: there's some magic line where age is the dominant factor in advocating for a GOAT. Let's arbitrarily say forty years of age: I guarantee more people under the age of forty (and thirty!) would advocate for James, while those north of forty would make the case for Jordan.  

Edited January 2, 2019 by PopKulture

[newshane]

5 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

Plus I will add that it's a generational thing: there's some magic line where age is the dominant factor in advocating for a GOAT. Let's arbitrarily say forty years of age: I guarantee more people under the age of forty (and thirty!) would advocate for James, while those north of forty would make the case for Jordan.  

That's because most people under 30 are remarkably dumb. 

[newshane]

I'm just sayin, these are the same kids who think that Kodak Black is better than Dr. Dre.  

[kav]

1 hour ago, Logan510 said:

Can we please get back the 1st world business of Bob Layton trying to fool an entire generation into believing he created Iron man and in turn stealing billions of dollars from Disney?

This is serious business, seriously.

LeBron is basically the Iron Man of Baskitball.  Your move.

[kav]

35 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

I shouldn't take the bait, but I will.  

It's neither James nor Jordan: the best body of work for a basketball player is Lew Alcindor aka. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. High school. College. Professional. You'll see he compares more than favorably on almost any of the aforementioned metrics, as well as one little career NBA stat: HE SCORED THE MOST POINTS EVER! 

Take a gander at what Alcindor did in college and even high school, and Jordan isn't even in the conversation. I mean, Jordan wasn't even the best player on his college team, and I say all of this as a Chicagoan, born-and-raised. Jordan had a darn dominant ten years, yes, but Wilt Chamberlain was more "unstoppable" during his best decade, and even the inevitable championship comparison breaks down against what the Celtics had built in a pre-free agency era.

Jordan, I will agree, was the best marketed.  

If you watch him in game of death he's pretty clumsy off the court in another sport!!!

[Bird]

1 minute ago, kav said:

If you watch him in game of death he's pretty clumsy off the court in another sport!!!

still, if that foot connects at high speed it would be devastating

Bruce only won by using the light to blind him after all!

Edited January 3, 2019 by Bird
or a knee or elbow! Broken ribs on one blow

[kav]

Just now, Bird said:

still, if that foot connects at high speed it would be devastating

Bruce only won by using the light to blind him after all!

haha!!  

[Tony D]

I do not think winning should be a criteria for greatness, at least in a team sport. Last year Jacob deGrom won the Cy Young Award in the National League with a 10 wins and 9 losses record. He didn't win the Cy Young Award for his pitching record but for his ERA, which was 1.70 and his dominance of the hitters he faced. Similarly, Ted Williams was one of the greatest pure hitters to play baseball but the Red Sox never won a World Series while he played for them..

[kav]

The real question is who would have won-Rocky Balboa or Mason "the line" Dixon?

[PopKulture]

6 minutes ago, Tony D said:

I do not think winning should be a criteria for greatness, at least in a team sport. 

I don't think it should be the main criterion, but it should be considered in the general overview.  

As someone mentioned previously, Robert Horry had a knack for being in the right place, right team. He's got more rings than Ewing, Marino and Ted Williams put together! Heck, even Craig Counsell and countless others can make that claim...  

[CAHokie]

6 hours ago, bb8 said:

You're right, my mistake. I thought he had 3 in Miami for some reason.

You forgot the choke job where they couldn't beat the Mavericks with one star.  LeBron was basically non-existent in that series. Heck, that series alone shouls prevent him from being best ever,

[Logan510]

25 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

I don't think it should be the main criterion, but it should be considered in the general overview.  

As someone mentioned previously, Robert Horry had a knack for being in the right place, right team. He's got more rings than Ewing, Marino and Ted Williams put together! Heck, even Craig Counsell and countless others can make that claim...  

The argument that Horry won so many championships is ridiculous. Was he ever the best player on those teams? The second...even third? No. Valued piece but no what made the engine go.

The only player I would put in the argument with Jordan is KAJ, but to be honest, as great as he was he was only the best player on his team for two out of his six championships. The other main difference is that Jordan had no weaknesses in his game and at one point was considered the best offensive as well as defensive player in the game simultaneously. KAJ is in my top 5 and my favorite center ever, but he does not compare.

Wilt was a monster, he did things numbers wise we will never see again, but winning also has to matter a little.