Something has to change: Views on Comic stores viability. 0

[Artboy99]

50 minutes ago, the blob said:

Why would a business want to keep $2 rather than giving it back??? Anyway, I agree there should be some returnability, but complete returnability can result in over ordering. Also, a full refund can mean a store buys back books from customers for $1 after they read them and then returns them. But I see a 50% refund maybe making sense and splits the costs. A $1 risk will still create a dicencentive to over order. What publishers don't seem to understand is that too much overstock created disincentives for retail price purchases. As for what diamond can do with returns.. Many of these books are trashed, Wal-Mart can't sell them. 2/3 of the books that go into my shops' dollar boxes are fine or less after rack abuse. I actually buy most mainstream books I see in there that are nm or better (though I have cut back on that). Many of the better copies are file customer's who defaulted.

I think the distributor needs a taste of that circumstance to really see how it affects their customers: the local comic store.

[october]

I gave up monthly moderns about a decade ago, and haven't regretted it for one moment since. I still pick up scattered issues and TPBs, but I don't like the constant reboots and I am pretty resistant to paying $5 for 5-15 minutes of reading...sometimes less. 

It just doesn't make a lot of sense,  compounded by the fact that the lion's share of back issues lose 90% of their value a few months after release.

I feel like the entire industry, most notably the publishers, have been coasting on hobbyist/collector/fan goodwill for decades. Is anyone really shocked that the market is slowly eroding? I honestly can't believe it has lasted as long as it has.

[fastballspecial]

3 hours ago, the blob said:

18 hours ago, Mercury Man said:

bastardized this after Heroe's Reborn/Heroes Return.   DC seems to be following suit since the New 52.   Variants are a joke, and he hit the nail on the head.   My LCS has short boxes full of variants.  He is asking 1/2 price, and will soon be moving them to the $1 bins. 

Old days? In 1978 there were 5 spiderman titles (1 reprint), 3 hulk titles (1 mag and 1 reprint), 2 Conan titles (at some point a little later 4)... But yes, overall it was much less and no minis. But yes, I hate the reboots. Even as a dollar box scrounger I am at the point of dropping buying many reboots. I actually do like to get runs. And it is too many variants. They aren't special. If there are only 3 or 4 a week for marvel then maybe people will care? With that said, my main shop seems to sell them. I have not been offered a stack of former $7-15 variants for $1 in years and I don't see him discounting them. Maybe he cuts deals or gives them to good file customers. As for everything being "worthless" 2 months later, that's an overstatement. $1-2 as back issues. Money losers for sure, but not worthless. One shop of mine has 3 or 4 longs of dollar books shoved in a corner and he generates $100-200 a week out of it (gross, not net). Half overstock half stuff he paid 5 cents for. He is a shop that buys whatever walks in. He is honest with people though, pays ok for good stuff and ok stuff, very little for junk, obviously. It seems dumb for shops to not try and buy collections. Why say no rather than just lowball? Yesterday I watched my guy pay $200 for some slabs he put up on the wall for about $1000. One of them was a $500 book he could sell for the $200 outlay in 2 minutes on eBay, get $400-500 if he has patience. It's "free" money?

Really with many shops it just comes down to not being up to date on how to sell comics. Or literally they don't want to put the time in.

[fastballspecial]

2 hours ago, the blob said:

Of course, a lot of comments here from a guy who buys 7-10 new comics a year off the rack, 3/4 of them because one of my kids guilted me. Fact is, I will probably never regularly buy new comics until they are $2 each and 64 pages and I can get the ones limited to 300 copies.

Yes and publishers could cut costs as well. I don't believe that producing a 32 page book has to cost $4-5.00

 

[the blob]

2 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

I think the distributor needs a taste of that circumstance to really see how it affects their customers: the local comic store.

They do. My friend who ran a shop burned diamond for about $25k. He knew he was closing after Christmas, ordered a TON of expensive hardcovers and other ebayable stuff leading up to that. Then went off the grid and paid the rent selling those for a couple of years. Of course, because he is a criminal I never spoke to him again. .

[the blob]

21 minutes ago, fastballspecial said:

Yes and publishers could cut costs as well. I don't believe that producing a 32 page book has to cost $4-5.00

 

Production costs are like 35cents (not including paying the talent) according to the jim zub blog? And that's for a 5k print run type book.

Inflation should Have the 1990 $1 comic at $2 today. May e $2.25 to account for better print quality and lower economies of scale due to lower print runs? By 1990 some talent was getting paid, dunno how it compares to today. And computers presumably make some production costs cheaper? Do humans still letter? Isn't color mostly computerized? 

I once had a conversation around 1998 with a mid level DC executive in a comic shop. This wasn't fanboy questioning, adult to adult, me being a lawyer in a suit, etc. Indeed, I told him I represented time Warner in some cases (which was true). When I told him comic sales had slipped in part because the cover price seemed to reflect a collectability premium but 90% of the books weren't collectible anymore and pointed to the 25 cent box. Why should I pay $1.75 for something that isn't collectible? His response " we don't give a damn about collectors, we don't make money on back issue sales"... Holy cow. He didn't understand a decent chunk of his own industry. Meanwhile he would routinely bring in a box of comics he got for free for store credit.

Edited January 5, 2019 by the blob

[Bronty]

1 hour ago, october said:

I gave up monthly moderns about a decade ago, and haven't regretted it for one moment since. I still pick up scattered issues and TPBs, but I don't like the constant reboots and I am pretty resistant to paying $5 for 5-15 minutes of reading...sometimes less. 

It just doesn't make a lot of sense,  compounded by the fact that the lion's share of back issues lose 90% of their value a few months after release.

I feel like the entire industry, most notably the publishers, have been coasting on hobbyist/collector/fan goodwill for decades. Is anyone really shocked that the market is slowly eroding? I honestly can't believe it has lasted as long as it has.

+1, on point.   Sucks to agree but it’s just so obvious what’s happening around us. 

[Park]

2 hours ago, october said:

I gave up monthly moderns about a decade ago, and haven't regretted it for one moment since. I still pick up scattered issues and TPBs, but I don't like the constant reboots and I am pretty resistant to paying $5 for 5-15 minutes of reading...sometimes less. 

It just doesn't make a lot of sense,  compounded by the fact that the lion's share of back issues lose 90% of their value a few months after release.

I feel like the entire industry, most notably the publishers, have been coasting on hobbyist/collector/fan goodwill for decades. Is anyone really shocked that the market is slowly eroding? I honestly can't believe it has lasted as long as it has.

I still read monthly and haven’t missed too much. There are still a lot of good reads each month. Some superhero books and some others.

I somewhat understand the five minute thing but at the same time, it is a bit of a cop out. There is just as much, if not more, wordy drivel from 1963 through 1990 that you can spend 30 minutes reading. I’ll gladly pass.  Good is good regardless of how long it takes me to read it.

I read some books monthly as they come and I read others in chunks. Some read better in chunks so I see why people might like trades. Other books I read in trades.

The desperation of all the variants certainly clouds the issue aa there is plenty of solid storytelling as well as some great art. Some of the variants are pretty cool but when they dump out 80 of an issue, I can’t imagine it is cost effective as I assume the publisher had to pay all those different artists. That and the $5 price tag are more detrimental to the floppy industry than anything else in my opinion.

Seeing as the digital market has never really taken off, there needs to be some reorganization in the next few years with both DC and Marvel. The question is do they actually care if the floppy market goes away?

I wonder what the numbers are for the books that were being sold at Walmart? They were $5 but were huge. Anecdotally, I only noticed them once or twice. I just wonder if there was any type of profit margin there.

More kids than ever seem to be familiar with superheroes than any time over the last 20 years. I just don’t know if DC and Marvel are able to capture that audience for monthly comic books.

[fastballspecial]

1 hour ago, the blob said:

2 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

Yes and publishers could cut costs as well. I don't believe that producing a 32 page book has to cost $4-5.00

 

Production costs are like 35cents (not including paying the talent) according to the jim zub blog? And that's for a 5k print run type book.

Inflation should Have the 1990 $1 comic at $2 today. May e $2.25 to account for better print quality and lower economies of scale due to lower print runs? By 1990 some talent was getting paid, dunno how it compares to today. And computers presumably make some production costs cheaper? Do humans still letter? Isn't color mostly computerized? 

I once had a conversation around 1998 with a mid level DC executive in a comic shop. This wasn't fanboy questioning, adult to adult, me being a lawyer in a suit, etc. Indeed, I told him I represented time Warner in some cases (which was true). When I told him comic sales had slipped in part because the cover price seemed to reflect a collectability premium but 90% of the books weren't collectible anymore and pointed to the 25 cent box. Why should I pay $1.75 for something that isn't collectible? His response " we don't give a damn about collectors, we don't make money on back issue sales"... Holy cow. He didn't understand a decent chunk of his own industry. Meanwhile he would routinely bring in a box of comics he got for free for store credit

I have heard that several times and I have come to believe it. That being said I think Indy books have tried to embrace the collector market and it has hurt some. You can go to some spec sites to hear them rail about the publisher of Rags and their decision to changing how they print their comics to more of a print on demand.

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by fastballspecial

[Krydel4]

1 hour ago, Park said:

Seeing as the digital market has never really taken off, there needs to be some reorganization in the next few years with both DC and Marvel. The question is do they actually care if the floppy market goes away?

With the digital market, it seems that they are almost actively working against it. Why all books published by the Big 3 don't have download codes with them is a mystery. If you can do a foil, lenticular, Wolverine scented variant cover, you should easily be able to have scratch off code on the front like those instant win lottery tickets. They are being sold in specialty shops anyway so people taking advantage would be kept to a minimum. You could even do two runs, one with the code one without that's cheaper. 

[Park]

1 hour ago, Krydel4 said:

With the digital market, it seems that they are almost actively working against it. Why all books published by the Big 3 don't have download codes with them is a mystery. If you can do a foil, lenticular, Wolverine scented variant cover, you should easily be able to have scratch off code on the front like those instant win lottery tickets. They are being sold in specialty shops anyway so people taking advantage would be kept to a minimum. You could even do two runs, one with the code one without that's cheaper. 

I have a lot of books with the digital downloads and I have never bothered. My son is 16 and he tried a few times and it didn’t catch on with him either.

I am just not sure how viable the digital market is for comic books.

[Phicks]

The publishers have been very private with their digital sales data.  But the rumour is that many small independent comics sell better digitally than hard copy, and so do Walking Dead and Star Wars.  

Whatever the cover price is on a comic, the publisher only gets 40%.  If we really REALLY want to fix what's wrong with the economics of comic books, is it time for the publishers to offer new comics digitally for $2 when the time soon comes that a standard comic is $5?  Readers could buy more new comics, and the publishers would have a higher profit margin, since they would no longer be paying for printing costs.

 

[Park]

1 hour ago, Phicks said:

The publishers have been very private with their digital sales data.  But the rumour is that many small independent comics sell better digitally than hard copy, and so do Walking Dead and Star Wars.  

Whatever the cover price is on a comic, the publisher only gets 40%.  If we really REALLY want to fix what's wrong with the economics of comic books, is it time for the publishers to offer new comics digitally for $2 when the time soon comes that a standard comic is $5?  Readers could buy more new comics, and the publishers would have a higher profit margin, since they would no longer be paying for printing costs.

 

It would be nice to see numbers and demographics. I won’t do digital but who cares. It would be interesting to see if kids say 10-18 or so would be interested in digital on an ongoing basis.

I wouldn’t as I am used to collecting something I can touch and smell. I have read a few digitally and while cool, I would never consider it collecting. I wonder if younger generations feel the same way or not. I lean more towards not but that is based off of nothing other than my own intuition which could be wildly off.

Polling a bunch of middle aged guys on here is utterly worthless, as our most of our opinions  ,  but it would be cool to see some numbers for any type of digital downloads. 

Is there any where that shows the production costs for a comic or any way of estimating? 

[Ken Aldred]

1 hour ago, Park said:

I have read a few digitally and while cool, I would never consider it collecting.

I'm at a stage where all I'm bothered about is reading, so digital's fine, in my case.

The olfactory and tactile triggers provided by paper aren't as important to me anymore.

[kimik]

I don't get the whole issue with variants. The solution for stores is simple - either have the customer who must have the 1:50/1:100/1:200/1:500/1:1000 variant cover the full cost of placing an order for it, or don't waste your time with it. Any store owner that chases a variant for a customer knowing they can't sell it for a high enough price to cover the cost of over ordering deserves to go under as that is just a bad business decision.

Edited January 6, 2019 by kimik

[Phish&Comics]

I buy mostly digital now. Still have a pull list for a few titles and will pick up a trade every now and then, but it's mostly about storage for me. I have no interest in storing/managing boxes of modern comics that are mostly worthless after I finish reading them. Plus you can get great deals digitally. Comixology often has really good sales, especially around holidays; I bought each omnibus of Hellboy for $5 during a Halloween sale - can't bring those big physical hardcovers on a plane to read!

[kav]

I have to hold a comic.  Digital to me anyway is like being hungry and looking at pictures of food online.

[Ken Aldred]

1 hour ago, kav said:

I have to hold a comic.  Digital to me anyway is like being hungry and looking at pictures of food online.

I see the comics I’m reading as the food: same stimulant rush regardless of the format they’re presented in.

I don’t experience any such sense of deprivation.

[kav]

1 minute ago, Ken Aldred said:

I see the comics I’m reading as the food: same stimulant rush regardless of the format they’re presented in.

I don’t experience any such sense of deprivation.

Even if I can read a book free online I will pay for it on ebay.

[Ken Aldred]

1 minute ago, kav said:

Even if I can read a book free online I will pay for it on ebay.

I have loads of material via Humble Bundle and Comixology.