Outbreak of Shaken Comic Syndrome 3 3

[VintageComics]

18 minutes ago, JWKyle said:

Not sure if you saw this pic a page or so back but this does have the shims and show the damage so I would think this is shipping damage although it's hard to tell without more pictures or the book in hand. 

I do agree with you though @VintageComics not too big of a fan of the non- recessed inner wells. 

 

I did miss that this was a book with a shim.

I think that my main point still stands. And that is, that there is no such thing as a perfect product unfortunately.

And physics being what it is, I can't see how to design a well that keeps the book from moving without actually damaging the book from pressure in the well (anybody who remembers the new CGC holder from 3 years ago knows what I'm talking about).

What we have right now might be the best iteration possible - so far.

[VintageComics]

29 minutes ago, comicdonna said:

Maybe they should start adding shims on those holders, too.  

Not sure if you're joking or not, but those holders are basically 4 shims to themselves. One on each side.

[JWKyle]

5 hours ago, VintageComics said:

 

What we have right now might be the best iteration possible - so far.

I agree with you 100% the product is visually and structurally appealing. If you take a CGC, CBCS and pgx and hand a non comic collector person a slab of each I would be surprised if most people didn't prefer the CGC slab. With that being said I think for the prices to have a book graded it should receive the time to make sure it's properly secured in the well. And the outer shell is put into place without crushing the lower portion of the book. 

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, JWKyle said:

With that being said I think for the prices to have a book graded it should receive the time to make sure it's properly secured in the well.

The books are properly secured. They just move within the well and the only way to prevent that is to apply more pressure on the book - something that did NOT go over well 3 years ago when they introduced their new slab. It was affecting books and so they reverted to the old style inner well again.

1 hour ago, JWKyle said:

And the outer shell is put into place without crushing the lower portion of the book. 

The other shell doesn't crush the lower portion of the book. But that seam does obscure the bottom of the book visually.

This is a complaint I've had from the beginning. The bottom of the book should not be obscured.

[JWKyle]

11 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

The books are properly secured. They just move within the well and the only way to prevent that is to apply more pressure on the book - something that did NOT go over well 3 years ago when they introduced their new slab. It was affecting books and so they reverted to the old style inner well again.

 

The books do not need to have more pressure at all to tighten up a book in the inner well the book should not have an 8th of an inch gap in any direction top/bottom ,left/right that it can slam around in the well. This space can and should be tighten up with the shims and wouldn't add anymore pressure on the book. It would just cut the gaps of the book to the side of the well. Also the non recessed wells don't have this problem but then again this well is the one that seems to produce books not straight in the slabs.

You seem to keep bringing up the old creep engine slab that has nothing to do with the recessed well and books having to much room to be slammed around in. 

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, JWKyle said:

the book should not have an 8th of an inch gap in any direction top/bottom ,left/right that it can slam around in the well.

Actually, I think (based on just my own educated guess - I can't state scientifically or with any authority) the small gap around the books is purposefully engineered to allow the book to move a little on small impacts to avoid the edges touching on those small impacts. I think they expect the friction of the well surfaces to slow the book down slightly upon small impacts before it hits the edges.

If the edges were too close to the edges of the comic (or the comic was always touching the edges) then every single impact would affect the edges of the book.

Additionally, comics are NOT all the same size and those tolerances are probably necessary to be able to fit every possible size of comic in the inner well.

1 hour ago, JWKyle said:

Also the non recessed wells don't have this problem but then again this well is the one that seems to produce books not straight in the slabs.

If you're talking about the book not hitting the edges they don't because the edges are tapered and all 4 sides act like a wedge to themselves.

[JWKyle]

28 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Actually, I think (based on just my own educated guess - I can't state scientifically or with any authority) the small gap around the books is purposefully engineered to allow the book to move a little on small impacts to avoid the edges touching on those small impacts. I think they expect the friction of the well surfaces to slow the book down slightly upon small impacts before it hits the edges.

If the edges were too close to the edges of the comic (or the comic was always touching the edges) then every single impact would affect the edges of the book.

I bring this picture up from the first post. Yes I agree that the front and back cover have friction to the top and bottom of the inner well so much friction in fact it was able to let the inside pull the staple and displace the guts of the book from the cover. I don't know how big that area around the cover is on this slab but it was enough to where this happened. If the spine of the book had a shim to close to gap from left to right on this book would this have happened? I understand what you mean by not wanting the edges to come into contact on all the sides and it maybe causing impact damage. But with that being said I think we see what happens when the gaps around the book are left too large and the book is slammed around. I also realize books should not be slammed around but it's going to happen and it would be nice to know if one way verse another is found to be "better". Whether a tightly shimmed book is going to result in a book being damaged more then a loosely shimmed or no shimmed book. And again I'm in the same boat as you I have no scientific proof one way or the other and I'm not going to take one of my slabs and slam it around to see what it can take. 

 

45 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

 

Additionally, comics are NOT all the same size and those tolerances are probably necessary to be able to fit every possible size of comic in the inner well.

This is why I would assume the shims are used to compensate for books of different sizes.  One thing i can't figure out though is why CGC will jump from one well to another. The recessed well or the 4 sided no recess sealed well.

---

[SSuperman]

Great thread....  

Edited May 29, 2019 by SSuperman

[HuddyBee]

The reason we are getting SCS is because of the new designed inner well. Inner wells used to be (and still are with other companies) 2 pieces of plastic sealed together allowing for very little blunting. However as you can see in the photos the new inner well is essentially a long thing box, which allows for the comic regardless of pressure (that pressure will decrease over time) to come in contact with hard edges. This was not possible before and still isn't with even PGX/Voldy books, because of the inner well design.

Think of it like this. The new CGC holder is basically a top loader. If you put a comic (w/o bag and board) in a top loader and shake it, it will be blunted and damaged. Old slabs and PGX/Voldy's inner wells are essentially mylars, or comic bags. If you put a comic in a comic bag/mylar and shake it, damage will occur, but much less than the previous example.

[VintageComics]

2 hours ago, HuddyBee said:

The reason we are getting SCS is because of the new designed inner well.

The inner well is not new. From what I understand it's the same old inner well that was used in the previous generation outer shells.

 

[VintageComics]

9 hours ago, SSuperman said:

especially the image provided by VintageComics exposes

I didn't supply any pictures. At best, I simply quoted someone else's pics.

[drotto]

3 hours ago, VintageComics said:

The inner well is not new. From what I understand it's the same old inner well that was used in the previous generation outer shells.

 

Correct, when CGC was forced to admit the "pressure" case was causing damage, they quickly figured out how to put the old inner well into the new cases.  If there is a major issue with inner wells it is a 20 year old issue at this point, as they have basically been the same since the start.

[SSuperman]

2 hours ago, Pizza Delivery said:

Are you saying the ultrasonic vibration used by CGC damages the comic? Do you have any proof of this? CGC has been in business 20 years and have slabbed over 4 million comics but this is the first time I've heard this theory.

The only proof I need is right here in this thread indicated in the pictures provided. However in addition, I have had several results that are similar, I have also spoke to numerous other individuals that have experienced

the same results some even worse than these.   As I stated, these are my opinions based on what I have seen and experienced over the last 20 years. I can not say I am 100% correct in my opinion or theory, however I can

say with 100% certainty the damage witnessed in the pictures of VintageComics books is preventable and should not be happening hence the need to change or further adjust the method.  CGC Is a great company, I am not bashing them

here, I am simply rendering an opinion that is fairly obvious in my opinion.  

[SSuperman]

5 hours ago, VintageComics said:

I didn't supply any pictures. At best, I simply quoted someone else's pics.

Pardon my comment, I thought you provided the image, thanks for the correction

[JWKyle]

4 hours ago, SSuperman said:

The only proof I need is right here in this thread indicated in the pictures provided.

The pictures in this thread are not showing any damage caused by the sealing process CGC uses to seal the inner wells. The damage these books are showing are from SCS (shaken comic syndrome). SCS is caused when a book is encapsulated and then is abused in some sort of fashion whether it's rough shipping to falling off a wall display from a dealer , could be just about anything that causes a sudden stop to the slab where the book in the well is still moving until it impact the side of the inner well with force. 

If your saying the sealing process also damages books I think everyone would be more then interested in seeing those pictures. 

 

[F For Fake]

Ugh, I hate this. I haven't subbed anything since they switched to the new holders, as we saw the rise of creep engine (resolved now, I understand), newton rings, SCS, and a bunch of other terms that we had to invent in order to explain why these protective cases are actively destroying comics. I just renewed my sub a couple of weeks ago because I have a stack of stuff I'd like to finally get slabbed, and now I see that SCS is still an issue. I mean, it's always been a potential issue, but the anecdotal evidence suggests that the new holders are increasing the instances of this occurring. I know I can get my books to CGC safely. Can they get them back to me safely as well? I never used to worry about this stuff. What a downer.

[ADAMANTIUM]

4 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

Ugh, I hate this. I haven't subbed anything since they switched to the new holders, as we saw the rise of creep engine (resolved now, I understand), newton rings, SCS, and a bunch of other terms that we had to invent in order to explain why these protective cases are actively destroying comics. I just renewed my sub a couple of weeks ago because I have a stack of stuff I'd like to finally get slabbed, and now I see that SCS is still an issue. I mean, it's always been a potential issue, but the anecdotal evidence suggests that the new holders are increasing the instances of this occurring. I know I can get my books to CGC safely. Can they get them back to me safely as well? I never used to worry about this stuff. What a downer.

I'm sad your reluctant... I've had no problems though.... plenty of people post in back from CGC thread...

I guess it's a what if scenario...

[F For Fake]

41 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I'm sad your reluctant... I've had no problems though.... plenty of people post in back from CGC thread...

I guess it's a what if scenario...

Yeah, I'm sure the number of folks getting books back in perfectly normal shape outweighs the horror stories here, but the fact that these issues continue to exist at all is enough to make me wary.

Oh well, I already paid for the sub, I guess I'll jump in and hope for the best!

[Get Marwood & I]

4 hours ago, F For Fake said:

Ugh, I hate this. I haven't subbed anything since they switched to the new holders, as we saw the rise of creep engine (resolved now, I understand), newton rings, SCS, and a bunch of other terms that we had to invent in order to explain why these protective cases are actively destroying comics. I just renewed my sub a couple of weeks ago because I have a stack of stuff I'd like to finally get slabbed, and now I see that SCS is still an issue. I mean, it's always been a potential issue, but the anecdotal evidence suggests that the new holders are increasing the instances of this occurring. I know I can get my books to CGC safely. Can they get them back to me safely as well? I never used to worry about this stuff. What a downer.

That's how I feel. If I'm one of a hundred people in a room, and 99 twenty pound notes fall from above, I'll be the one who doesn't catch one. I'm lucky like that. So if 499 out of 500 encapsulations go swimmingly, and one doesn't, guess which one mine will be....

[JWKyle]

@F For Fake I've posted some opinions in this thread but none of the books pictured are mine. I've had about 75 CGC books come in this year from all over the place . Whether it's directly from CGC or bought from a independent seller I haven't had a problem. Keep in mind SCS has always been a problem and in all honesty it doesn't hurt to bring it up every once in a while. This thread could act as a wake up call for CGC to tighten up the process of books going through the slabbing and shipping department.