vodou Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Quoting comix4fun: Glad you've got me all figured out. The same slapdash, whitewash, "see 1% and think it's 100%" analysis is really a poor excuse for really getting to know someone. You're making declarations when you should be asking questions. That's not unique to you, for sure, but it doesn't make your all-seeing-eye any more accurate. Perhaps ask yourself a question like "If I've had only one dealing with a rep, and the rep has been in business for 30+ years, does it make one bit of sense to judge him solely on that one dealing? Or am I just looking for an easy pigeonhole to confirm my omniscience?" Easier to call OTHER PEOPLE intellectually dishonest I guess though, right? Not like you're making wholesale judgments about people, their motivations, their worth, based on scant or nonexistent personal experiences and little actual knowledge....that's SUPER intellectually honest BTW. And getting defensive when someone takes the time to ask you a question instead of instantly labeling you is something else I might work on. You named 4 rock solid dealers and reps. Here's a little bit of info that you might have left out of your exhaustive comparative analysis: Add up everything in Felix's, Mitch's, Albert's and Anthony's repped inventories...multiply it by 2...it's still not half of Spencer's inventory. Try to not turn this post into something it's not, again. Yes, I've seen you in action -publicly- for long enough and consistently enough to state what I've stated. The non-public consists of a few e-mails way back and a few private messages a few years ago. You were more friendly in private, more combative in public. Who knows on that? But since we're in public, for all to see, I think discussing things that all can see, such as your (imo) biased support of two dealers is fair. That's what I refer to previously re: Friends of, same as I would those others that each dealer/rep has that jump to the defense when criticisms (fair or not) are leveled publicly. Others may be entertained, for me it's a bore. Your great experience is not my great experience, especially as a follow-up to my bad experience. That you "like" Spencer or Mike, for whatever reason is nothing special to read, what you write in response to specific public critiques: interesting. Valuing honesty over inventory control and over other web site matters...I'd say all are equal weight, one is not more important than the other: all are required for professionalism to apply. Perfect inventory coupled with dishonest: fail. Imperfect inventory coupled with honest: fail. I judge Spencer on two dealings. One in person, perfect. And one (over and over again, too many times to count but at least once per year) on his website, imperfect (and that's being kind). He's 1:2 with me overall, and 0:1 on website broken out. Awful. Any business where Spencer is working for somebody else, that's FIRED the first year and after ten-fifteen years of the same...only tolerated if the poor guy is family I judge on what I can see and have personally experienced. That's plenty accurate. That's actually how we all do it, some are (perhaps?) harsher, more critical judges than others. I would suggest that I am. But nobody is god, nobody has perfect knowledge...so that's a big nothing right there. You either have a very different standard of what professionalism is than I or you do not apply that standard evenly. I'd suggest the latter, as I don't think you would suffer this in any other part of retail commerce world. Would you really? Intellectual honesty is a tenet of philosophy and by extension the argumentative dialectic. It means the better evidence, the more well-formed argument will win, not personal bias. When that happens, I change my mind. That is intellectual honesty. Your personal experiences with folks, your relating those experiences and the second hand experiences of others does nothing to alter my experiences, my facts. My intellectual honesty is intact. Is yours? The web site stinks (I paraphrase) as you yourself state. That's a barrier to entry for me as a customer. What have you presented that makes the web site stink less or not at all? Nothing. Ah Chris...you are no insufficiently_thoughtful_person, you've been around and have all the appearance of succeeding in life in many way, so why do I have to remind you of such a basic thing: when the business gets bigger...so should the staff, or service quality will suffer. Spencer, in addition to being the public face and name of his business, is also in charge of hiring and firing, no? (Tell me if I am wrong here.) If yes, then he owns the slack in customer service and experience by not dealing professionally with the "size" problem by either reducing the size of his business or expanding the size of his workforce. The End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I was surprised at those comments as well. And also that my opinion was dismissed; professionalism is displayed when there ARE problems, not when things go smoothly. A man's got to know his limitations. The size of the inventory is irrelevant and just seems to me to be deflection from the issues at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtymartini1 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I had to download and open netscape web browser to get his site to run on my computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 28 minutes ago, Bird said: ...; professionalism is displayed when there ARE problems, not when things go smoothly. A man's got to know his limitations. Yes. Just like the old adage about dating and friends, you don't really know that person until you see how the react in rather adverse circumstances. Some rise above. Most do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 31 minutes ago, Bird said: The size of the inventory is irrelevant and just seems to me to be deflection from the issues at hand. Yes and clearly. There is a pattern of that, a very light-touch sort of victim-blaming. Even worse when it's being done by a proxy, sheesh; I'm certain I would not want comix4fun out in the wild doing my PR management and damage control. But he's probably a really good friend, as to intentions and the like. I'm also thinking of the humorous stick-measuring contest that was repeatedly offered, which I didn't bite (that's what she said); so vodou and and Spencer (via comix4fun...holding??) stretch them out, to see whose is longer (and thicker, very important that, always) to resolve the issue: never asking the woman (the fans, complainers, site-clickers) of the equation what matters to them. It may not be size or girth but the motion of the ocean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I would take both of you in my foxhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Bird said: I would take both of you in my foxhole. I think I would too, as long as comix4fun wasn't forced to make a choice between saving only me or Spencer (or Mike) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andahaion Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I was in the midst of drafting a reply before the lock because something was stated that I was hoping for additional clarification...what is the difference between a dealer and a rep? It was stated that perhaps some here don't know the difference...and I'm apparently one of those persons... Twanj 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Andahaion said: I was in the midst of drafting a reply before the lock because something was stated that I was hoping for additional clarification...what is the difference between a dealer and a rep? It was stated that perhaps some here don't know the difference...and I'm apparently one of those persons... Dealer's own the art that they are selling and reps do not, they are representatives of the artists handling their sales. That is the general distinction. Twanj, Kohei, Andahaion and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miraclemet Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, Andahaion said: I was in the midst of drafting a reply before the lock because something was stated that I was hoping for additional clarification...what is the difference between a dealer and a rep? It was stated that perhaps some here don't know the difference...and I'm apparently one of those persons... i thought a dealer owned the art, whereas a rep is acting as a proxy for the artist (artist maimtaining posession and ownership of art and the rep merely taking a cut for proctoring a transaction. A dealer owns the art they are listing having bought it from artists, other dealers, etc... Andahaion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, Bird said: Dealer's own the art that they are selling and reps do not, they are representatives of the artists handling their sales. That is the general distinction. Yes, to clarify representatives carry art on consignment for a fee (one way or another)...which can get sticky when people disappear with the art or the rep's in major financial trouble and the creditors (and courts) are viewing the consignments as "inventory". It happens too much, bad stories, in fine art. Laws Governing Art Consignment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 1 minute ago, miraclemet said: A dealer owns the art they are listing having bought it from artists, other dealers, etc... Plenty of dealers handle consignments too, though they tend to be out of collector's hands not artists (but never say never either!). Mitch and Mike Burkey, off the top of my head, both post here occasionally soliciting their services in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Was there a page to this thread which was lost somewhere? Regarding Spencer, my dealings have been fine. He has other things to do, and I respect that. The website... what can I say we don't already know? While he is getting his new site in order, maybe he could at least stop the sparkling stars and modify the colors a bit so it is easier to read. Kohei and Twanj 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Peck Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said: Was there a page to this thread which was lost somewhere? Regarding Spencer, my dealings have been fine. He has other things to do, and I respect that. The website... what can I say we don't already know? While he is getting his new site in order, maybe he could at least stop the sparkling stars and modify the colors a bit so it is easier to read. Getting his new site in order? Hasn't it been like a year since the announcement of a new site. The site hasn't changed in more than a decade, same issues percist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mycroft Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Some facts : This was The Artist's Choice website in 2006 : https://web.archive.org/web/20060207021839/http://www.theartistschoice.com/ Now look at the current site : http://www.theartistschoice.com/ Notice how the list of artist was way longer then ? That is not the look of success ... comix4fun, you said : Quote "You named 4 rock solid dealers and reps. Here's a little bit of info that you might have left out of your exhaustive comparative analysis: Add up everything in Felix's, Mitch's, Albert's and Anthony's repped inventories...multiply it by 2...it's still not half of Spencer's inventory. " "A lot of those folks place the same demands on Spencer and the 40,000 pages he has in inventory with reps who have 400 or 4,000 pages in inventory...or even worse, with dealers who have a few thousand pages in inventory but have margins of 50% to 500% on each and every page they list allowing more disposable income to keep things more neat and tidy. Neither the smaller scale rep nor the dealer with his personally owned inventory are real analogs to Spencer." I don't believe this is true ... It may have been, a long time ago ... but not currently. A lot of his inventory has already been sold ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miraclemet Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 47 minutes ago, vodou said: Plenty of dealers handle consignments too, though they tend to be out of collector's hands not artists (but never say never either!). Mitch and Mike Burkey, off the top of my head, both post here occasionally soliciting their services in this area. true. But if someone says they are a dealer, I assume its their inventory unless otherwise noted. If they say theyre a broker/rep I assume some of the conditions that come with that kind of role (ie typically (though not alwasy) longer delivery times since transactions are going thru a second set of hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 Just now, miraclemet said: true. But if someone says they are a dealer, I assume its their inventory unless otherwise noted. If they say theyre a broker/rep I assume some of the conditions that come with that kind of role (ie typically (though not alwasy) longer delivery times since transactions are going thru a second set of hands. It's fine to expect that but the distinction (being noted) is not disclosed at the single piece level. Not that I've seen anyway; somebody knows different, just show me where. (Want to up your professionalism game - here's a great one - upfront disclosure of true ownership - to distinguish yourself from the competition!) Both those dealers, among others handle consignments, probably have a number of them (and possibly much, much, more) on hand at present, but I couldn't tell you which pieces are theirs, which are consignments from collectors and which are consignment from artists of their own work. Now this isn't a jab per se, it's a nice to have but the hobby has been trucking along like this for a long time without such things too. Nonetheless, one of the concerns in the hobby is just such a lack of transparency, particularly those dealers that have collector friends (or whatever?) where the dealer inventory and that friend's collection seem to be highly fluid, pieces just moving back and forth, back and forth, back and..one has to wonder if anything ever actually sells (you know, money is traded for something else, capital gains are triggered and reported to the IRS, etc), I dunno myself... A high percentage of people, it's a human thing after all, are big hat, no cattle. There's nothing to suggest that the subset population of our little hobby is of significantly different composition. All humans, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Peck Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Was there a reason given why the original Artistschoice thread was locked? Seemed to happen right after I pointed out the CGC's hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 IBTL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, Brian Peck said: Was there a reason given why the original Artistschoice thread was locked? Seemed to happen right after I pointed out the CGC's hypocrisy. My guess (guess only, subject to being totally effing wrong fact-checkers and haters!) is...it's easier to escalate complaints about the thread than it is to suggest in a manner in which action is assured to very, very busy people the value of non-trivially addressing and/or fixing the problems the thread brought up. Path of least resistance 'n all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
