[FEB 12 UPDATE] !RETURNED! - Dell’Otto
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6 hours ago, Will_K said:
9 hours ago, RS88 said:

one would expect a few questions

You may also start asking more questions.

 

1 hour ago, malvin said:
6 hours ago, Will_K said:

You may also start asking more questions.

What does that mean?  

Malvin 

What I meant was... @RS88 may be more skittish when people try to buy from him and HE will start asking more questions.

Edited by Will_K

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To me, it reads like a near-perfect international eBay/Paypal scam that has developed over the last 7 to 10 years. Or at least however long it's been since eBay stopped allowing feedback against buyers. It was the only deterrent, and that's when they shot sellers in the foot.

Sure the seller could send a print to the buyer, but that's super easy to notice. We've seen that scam before too, though more often the seller is just uneducated and thought their print was an original for whatever reason, or they play dumb.
But why pay the cost of shipping international in the hopes that a print will fool somebody? You'd have to do it a fair bit to make it at all profitable by finding the rare doofus that wouldn't know the difference.

On the flip side, I've seen people order stuff on eBay, have the buyer file a claim and send back phone books, machine parts, all kinds of trash and whathave you. Just so they could point to eBay and Paypal and say they did send it back per the weight of what was shipped their way. Or they say the seller shipped it to them that way, and resent a picture of the stuff "after it was opened". When they pull the switcheroo and tell the services that the seller didn't send what was described, the services almost always side with the buyer.

How do you prove you packed it, gave it to the PO exactly what you claim, without shooting video footage of the process from start to finish, with zero editing?
And even then, if someone was determined, they could make a switcheroo even in such a video if they were slick.

eBay and Paypal are cesspools now. But it's the way people expect to pay and do business. You shrink your buyer pool if you don't play ball. And if all the comic OA market bycotted or went away, I doubt it'd leave much of a blip on eBay's bottom line, compared to these scams as pulled on transactions for clothing, car parts, sporting good, etc and so on.

 

The whole thing sucks.

BTW, I do documenting videos when I unbox anything nowadays. I delete them as soon as I can verify it is what it's supposed to be.

Edited by ESeffinga

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1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

This whole thing is weird. Both sides are adamant that they were the ones who were scammed. 

I'm pretty sure the buyer wouldn't volunteer that he is a criminal that has stolen artwork worth thousands of dollars.

It seems pretty obvious RS88 was ripped off, but it would make no sense if he was a scammer to draw attention to this first. He would know that paypal rules will never favor him, so if a buyer pushed back he would just take the shipping loss and try to move onto the next sad sack and try to fly under the radar.

Then there is just all the other information. RS88 is an established member of this community, CAF, etc. Has many people vouch for him saying they've never had any problems with big purchases/sales. etc. The other guy gave a fake name and has no online presence. As far as I've seen he has only "spoken" through some other people on Facebook who said they talked to him.

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1 hour ago, Will_K said:

 

What I meant was... @RS88 may be more skittish when people try to buy from him and HE will start asking more questions.

I've definitely learned my lesson.  Like I mentioned initially, I know where I went wrong - and a lot of the blame through being naïve and not doing my own due diligence can be pointed in my direction

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13 minutes ago, Dokstarr said:

I'm pretty sure the buyer wouldn't volunteer that he is a criminal that has stolen artwork worth thousands of dollars.

It seems pretty obvious RS88 was ripped off, but it would make no sense if he was a scammer to draw attention to this first. He would know that paypal rules will never favor him, so if a buyer pushed back he would just take the shipping loss and try to move onto the next sad sack and try to fly under the radar.

Then there is just all the other information. RS88 is an established member of this community, CAF, etc. Has many people vouch for him saying they've never had any problems with big purchases/sales. etc. The other guy gave a fake name and has no online presence. As far as I've seen he has only "spoken" through some other people on Facebook who said they talked to him.

There was a lengthy back and forth in the comment section of a Facebook post yesterday.  I reached out to anyone that came in supporting the buyer's claim and to explain the sequence of events - he didn't get a lot of support for his accusation. 

He is in the OA community, and has worked cons and with some comic stores and signature desks.  

I'm not sure if you've all seen Ozark Season 1 - but Jason Bateman's answer to the lady stealing from her employer is something that rings pretty true right now....

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21 minutes ago, Dokstarr said:

I'm pretty sure the buyer wouldn't volunteer that he is a criminal that has stolen artwork worth thousands of dollars.

It seems pretty obvious RS88 was ripped off, but it would make no sense if he was a scammer to draw attention to this first. He would know that paypal rules will never favor him, so if a buyer pushed back he would just take the shipping loss and try to move onto the next sad sack and try to fly under the radar.

Then there is just all the other information. RS88 is an established member of this community, CAF, etc. Has many people vouch for him saying they've never had any problems with big purchases/sales. etc. The other guy gave a fake name and has no online presence. As far as I've seen he has only "spoken" through some other people on Facebook who said they talked to him.

He - apparently - posted some direct comments/denials about it in the Facebook thread linked to earlier. I do not know either of these people, so I don't have the personal relationship or experiences some of you do with the seller.

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7 minutes ago, RS88 said:

There was a lengthy back and forth in the comment section of a Facebook post yesterday.  I reached out to anyone that came in supporting the buyer's claim and to explain the sequence of events - he didn't get a lot of support for his accusation. 

He is in the OA community, and has worked cons and with some comic stores and signature desks.  

I'm not sure if you've all seen Ozark Season 1 - but Jason Bateman's answer to the lady stealing from her employer is something that rings pretty true right now....

His side of it is that he was being pushed into using friends and family on PayPal by you, but insisted otherwise. If that exchange happened, he could produce e-mails about it. And you could also produce e-mails showing your back and forth negotiations. Nobody is doing any of this stuff publicly, and its ending up in court where discovery can and will be used. Like I said, weird.

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13 minutes ago, RS88 said:

I've definitely learned my lesson.  Like I mentioned initially, I know where I went wrong - and a lot of the blame through being naïve and not doing my own due diligence can be pointed in my direction

I am not sure how this kind of scam can be avoided in the future. How do you prove that's what you mailed someone? 

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1 hour ago, Bird said:

But what seller would think that that’s going to actually work you’re going to get it returned and lose your money immediately the buyer on the other hand has stupid eBay and PayPal policy is on their side so the chance of success is great

Maybe he knows it won't work, but wants to pro-actively protect HIS reputation? I'm not saying that's what is going on, but there are a number of reasons why the seller in this scenario would want to publicize this, if he wants to pro-actively avoid being labelled a scammer. Maybe he thought the other guys was going to go public with this first? In any case, its weird, and I hope this is worked out, and there is some way to avoid this problem in this future. It seems like a blueprint for a scam artist.

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Just now, PhilipB2k17 said:

His side of it is that he was being pushed into using friends and family on PayPal by you, but insisted otherwise. If that exchange happened, he could produce e-mails about it. And you could also produce e-mails showing your back and forth negotiations. Nobody is doing any of this stuff publicly, and its ending up in court where discovery can and will be used. Like I said, weird.

The whole motive behind that was an attempt to save the service fee.  But I was also walking into a situation where I would be at a large disadvantage as a seller.

I do have documentation of the exchange, and it's fairly clear that the intent was go try and get the best deal possible to the buyer. 

One thing that should be noted, is that there was no attempt at all to talk with me regarding his accusation at all during the entire process - he only came out yesterday because he spoke with the local legal authorities and knew that I had escalated this to a litigation level.

 

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Just now, PhilipB2k17 said:

Maybe he knows it won't work, but wants to pro-actively protect HIS reputation? I'm not saying that's what is going on, but there are a number of reasons why the seller in this scenario would want to publicize this, if he wants to pro-actively avoid being labelled a scammer. Maybe he thought the other guys was going to go public with this first? In any case, its weird, and I hope this is worked out, and there is some way to avoid this problem in this future. It seems like a blueprint for a scam artist.

I feel like the buyer is attempting to protect his own reputation as he is in the OA community. 

I have nothing to hide, and yes I understand the counterpoint of the situation - I'm happy to address any questions. 

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1 minute ago, RS88 said:

The whole motive behind that was an attempt to save the service fee.  But I was also walking into a situation where I would be at a large disadvantage as a seller.

I do have documentation of the exchange, and it's fairly clear that the intent was go try and get the best deal possible to the buyer. 

One thing that should be noted, is that there was no attempt at all to talk with me regarding his accusation at all during the entire process - he only came out yesterday because he spoke with the local legal authorities and knew that I had escalated this to a litigation level.

 

I just hope PayPal fixes this massive gap in their security. One thing I would not do if I were you. I would not touch that print he sent back. The authorities could test it for fingerprints, and if only his are on it, then it would tend to back up your story.

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1 minute ago, RS88 said:

I feel like the buyer is attempting to protect his own reputation as he is in the OA community. 

I have nothing to hide, and yes I understand the counterpoint of the situation - I'm happy to address any questions. 

If what you are saying is true, he wants to protect a lot more than his reputation. He wants to avoid jail.

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Just now, malvin said:

Wow, you really are a conspiracy theorist.  While what you said is within the realm of possibility, I don't see anyone (other than you) giving credence to that possibility.

Malvin

I was just playing devil's advocate to the absolutist position taken here that the seller in this instance has absolutely no reason to lie. 

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11 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I am not sure how this kind of scam can be avoided in the future. How do you prove that's what you mailed someone? 

PayPal is a horrible intermediary.  As a buyer there's no recourse if you go Friends & Family.  As a seller, there's no protection if you accept payment on an item or service.

I have a developed a new canon:

1. A purchase limit for both PayPal & Ebay

2. Extensive reference checks on seller with references provided - if it has a good feel, or if I have done business with this person: ignore rule 1

3. Google the address I'm shipping a package

4. Large purchases must be completed with a wire/money order

I'm not in the business of buying art to flip or sell it.  I wanted to move this piece as there were a couple of incredible pieces that popped up.  It's my own mantra now, and the story I'm sharing is just intended to put awareness to the community that this can happen, and to warn you of who's involved.

Edited by RS88

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19 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Maybe he knows it won't work, but wants to pro-actively protect HIS reputation? I'm not saying that's what is going on, but there are a number of reasons why the seller in this scenario would want to publicize this, if he wants to pro-actively avoid being labelled a scammer. Maybe he thought the other guys was going to go public with this first? In any case, its weird, and I hope this is worked out, and there is some way to avoid this problem in this future. It seems like a blueprint for a scam artist.

I know Ryan.  He's a passionate collector who has built up a great collection and a great network within the community within an incredibly short period of time.  he has no incentive to try and scam a random dude in California by selling him a photocopy of a dellotto painting. 

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According to his FB page, the buyer is a kid (looks very early 20s) who recently started working at In and Out Burger.  That doesnt really strike me as the type of collector buying $4k+ Del Otto paintings... 

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Sure hope he does the right thing and doesn't toss it in the trash. Would you consider letting him know that no charges will be filled if he cops to it and returns the art? 

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