Why people hate most modern books 3 3

[theCapraAegagrus]

17 minutes ago, fullerjason said:

I don't hate moderns but I hate the variant game. Now mind you I don't mind variants if they were actually different. Creating a regular Cover A then a Variant cover B, taking said variant cover B and removing the color to make a variant C, taking the Variant C and adding Copic colors to make a Variant D and then taking the Cover B and removing any logos to make a virgin variant E is ridiculous and lazy. If a regular cover A is made and then another artist does a cover B variant and a different artist does a cover C Ok, fine. Currently it's just make one variant and lets see how we can twist it to make 13 slightly different variants.

[F For Fake]

On 2/3/2019 at 1:38 AM, october said:

I love me some Clyde Fans. Seth isn't for everybody, but he easily makes my personal top 10.

Man, I looooooved "It's a Good Life if you Don't Weaken", but "Clyde Fans" was just a snooze for me. Maybe because it seemed like we got  20 pages every 2 years or so (I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but maybe not by much). I probably owe it a reread, so a new collection sounds about right. Will give it another shot soon. 

[F For Fake]

As for the main topic, I don't personally think that "people hate most modern books". I don't think it's true.

BUT, if you DO think it's true, it's probably because you are living in a time where everyone's opinion is being Facebooked, Tweeted and Youtube'd at you 24/7.

And CGC Boarded, too, of course!

Social media has given us the gift :cough: of constant exposure to everyone's opinions about every single thing that they encounter.

If I had to wager (and if there was anyway to prove such a nebulous assertion, which there definitely isn't) I'd say that every generation has had MORE than its fair share of readers who hated the "modern" books of their time. Have you all ever spent any amount of time in a comic book shop, ever? I've been going to shops for 35 years, and in all of those times, the 80's, the 90's, the 00's, and now, there is ALWAYS SOME AWFUL MOUTH BREATHER RUNNING HIS TRAP ABOUT HOW EVERYTHING SUCKS NOW. But back in the day, if you wanted to know what people thought about the comics, you had to have the misfortune of running into these cretins at your local shop or store, or, you know, you had to wait two months for the letters column. Nowadays, you can have this negativity shot directly into your brain.

[the blob]

32 minutes ago, fullerjason said:

I don't hate moderns but I hate the variant game. Now mind you I don't mind variants if they were actually different. Creating a regular Cover A then a Variant cover B, taking said variant cover B and removing the color to make a variant C, taking the Variant C and adding Copic colors to make a Variant D and then taking the Cover B and removing any logos to make a virgin variant E is ridiculous and lazy. If a regular cover A is made and then another artist does a cover B variant and a different artist does a cover C Ok, fine. Currently it's just make one variant and lets see how we can twist it to make 13 slightly different variants.

I have no issues with characters like Thor becoming a woman. Why? The character Thor has so many stories written about him what could writers do with him now? It opens the character up to new stories. They never ultimately stay that way and it may open up possible stories for Thor in the future as the characters always revert back at some point. The publishers are damned if they do damned if they don't. If a story they write using the regular Thor isn't mind-blowing and new they get called hacks. If they change a character they get called soy milk drinking, SJW, snowflakes from some far off crazy echo chamber. People were mad with the Superior Spider-Man arc and that was fresh and a nice take on Spider-Man much the same way that many like The Batman Who Laughs currently. Many probably do not like the fact that a Batman was corrupted by Joker and became, no that is not the correct word, embraced all of the attributes of the Joker. Love or hate that story it opens up Batman to different stories in the future. Superman has had every aspect of his life covered in comic format from flying backwards to time travel to how does he get a haircut. What new stories can be written about him that hasn't been done? Heck his powers have been messed with 3 or 4 times. Some writers have to take some risks with the characters and not everyone is going to like it and that is nothing new. I to agree that creating new superhero characters would be great but what are you going to do when every animal and adjective has been placed in front of man/woman? 

seriously, there have been what, like 3 or 4 pretend thors granted thor-like powers? why not a lady? as for the variants...I am not against them per se, although there do seem to be too many, but when it's just a different not all that interesting cover, what's the point?  Here's one...really boring, ho hum art, why do we need this? Want to do a "hot artist" Campbell, Hughes, Ross, Deldottio or whatever cover? Fine. But what is special about this? It's not even visually appealing. There are so many artists out there capable of producing a "wow" cover, why do we get this? (Admittedly, maybe a "wow" cover makes no sense for a book that will sell 2,500 copies, I dunno)

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, the blob said:

seriously, there have been what, like 3 or 4 pretend thors granted thor-like powers? why not a lady? as for the variants...I am not against them per se, although there do seem to be too many, but when it's just a different not all that interesting cover, what's the point?  Here's one...really boring, ho hum art, why do we need this? Want to do a "hot artist" Campbell, Hughes, Ross, Deldottio or whatever cover? Fine. But what is special about this? It's not even visually appealing. There are so many artists out there capable of producing a "wow" cover, why do we get this? (Admittedly, maybe a "wow" cover makes no sense for a book that will sell 2,500 copies, I dunno)

 

This variant made me vomit and I abhor you for sharing it.

[Logan510]

50 minutes ago, fullerjason said:

I don't hate moderns but I hate the variant game. Now mind you I don't mind variants if they were actually different. Creating a regular Cover A then a Variant cover B, taking said variant cover B and removing the color to make a variant C, taking the Variant C and adding Copic colors to make a Variant D and then taking the Cover B and removing any logos to make a virgin variant E is ridiculous and lazy. If a regular cover A is made and then another artist does a cover B variant and a different artist does a cover C Ok, fine. Currently it's just make one variant and lets see how we can twist it to make 13 slightly different variants.

I have no issues with characters like Thor becoming a woman. Why? The character Thor has so many stories written about him what could writers do with him now? It opens the character up to new stories. They never ultimately stay that way and it may open up possible stories for Thor in the future as the characters always revert back at some point. The publishers are damned if they do damned if they don't. If a story they write using the regular Thor isn't mind-blowing and new they get called hacks. If they change a character they get called soy milk drinking, SJW, snowflakes from some far off crazy echo chamber. People were mad with the Superior Spider-Man arc and that was fresh and a nice take on Spider-Man much the same way that many like The Batman Who Laughs currently. Many probably do not like the fact that a Batman was corrupted by Joker and became, no that is not the correct word, embraced all of the attributes of the Joker. Love or hate that story it opens up Batman to different stories in the future. Superman has had every aspect of his life covered in comic format from flying backwards to time travel to how does he get a haircut. What new stories can be written about him that hasn't been done? Heck his powers have been messed with 3 or 4 times. Some writers have to take some risks with the characters and not everyone is going to like it and that is nothing new. I to agree that creating new superhero characters would be great but what are you going to do when every animal and adjective has been placed in front of man/woman? 

This is part of the problem. These characters were created as serial fiction and not intended to be followed for a lifetime. As a lifelong reader of superhero comics I accept the conceits of the genre and don’t moan and groan “ Doctor Doom... again”?

I also didn’t need the characters to grow with me as I matured. If I want something more “adult”, there is plenty out there and has been for a long time.

[500Club]

6 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

7 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

And believe it or not... I am okay with that.  I actually see that argument. 

I still like Samuel Jackson Fury though. 

 

Haven't we already established why they don't create something new?

No.

It's been suggested that creators are loathe to create in a work-for-hire environment, and forego possible future riches.  Aside from Mark Millar, I'm not seeing much evidence that creators are saving their best concepts for self publishing ventures, as tends to be the correlate of this argument.

Also, there is new stuff being created.  As examples, Grant Morrison created a bunch of new characters and concepts for his New X-Men run, and Bendis is at present creating new concepts for DC.   I think 'create something new' isn't so much a plea to actually create something new, but railing against the zillion derivative characters and concepts.

[500Club]

4 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

And for all the diversity haters who think it's something NEW at Marvel:

Note: I think it’s important to note that from 1966 to when he stopped writing for Marvel in (roughly) 1970, that Social Justice Warrior Stan Lee (sarcasm) co-created 4 BLACK superheroes (Black Panther, Bill Foster aka Black Goliath/Giant Man, Falcon, and the Prowler) and only ONE white one - an alien at that - in Captain Marvel.

What Social Message was he trying to send? Why is he so beloved if he was such a SJW (as they call it)?

 

Note: THEN from 1970 to 1974 a new wave of Marvel creators came in who were OBVIOUSLY commie pinko SJW’s (more sarcasm) - Look who they created: Sunfire (Asian), Red Wolf (Native American), Valkyrie (Female) - Yes, all three new characters of 1970 were non-white superheroes, oh my god, it’s a revolution! Then: Lady Lark (female), Mockingbird (female), Namorita (female), Luke Cage (African-American), Tigra (female), Shanna (female), Thundra (female), Moondragon (bald female), Mantis (Asian, female), Blade (African-American), Brother Voodoo (African-American), Shang-Chi (Asian), Lin Sun (Asian), Abe Brown (African-American), Wolverine (Canadian!!!), Colleen Wing (Asian, female) and Misty Knight (African-American, female).

My position is that the backlash against Marvel two years ago wasn't about diversity per se, it was the systematic replacement of core characters.

Your points above make that even more evident.  If it was about diversity, where was the backlash against the above concepts, in the much less tolerant 60s and 70s, no less?

[the blob]

18 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

This variant made me vomit and I abhor you for sharing it.

seriously, I can do a cover that bad, probably better

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, the blob said:

seriously, I can do a cover that bad, probably better

I could wipe my @$$ 12 hours after eating a giant salad and it would be a better variant.

[the blob]

4 minutes ago, 500Club said:

No.

It's been suggested that creators are loathe to create in a work-for-hire environment, and forego possible future riches.  Aside from Mark Millar, I'm not seeing much evidence that creators are saving their best concepts for self publishing ventures, as tends to be the correlate of this argument.

Also, there is new stuff being created.  As examples, Grant Morrison created a bunch of new characters and concepts for his New X-Men run, and Bendis is at present creating new concepts for DC.   I think 'create something new' isn't so much a plea to actually create something new, but railing against the zillion derivative characters and concepts.

If they are going to create, they just need to get paid accordingly, that's all. Not like they own it, sure, but a premium.

[KEY ISSUES Comics]

On 2/2/2019 at 4:32 PM, october said:

People who think modern comics are bad need to look past the junk being put out by the big two.

There's plenty of good titles that don't involve men in tights.

Yeah, and this the true Golden Age of comic books as far as I'm concerned.

NOTE: I stopped buying DC/Marvel stuff to read years ago, which is unfortunate but the endless reboots, variants, lack of continuity and endless 'events' is a turn off for me. 

[KEY ISSUES Comics]

On 2/2/2019 at 6:23 PM, jsilverjanet said:

I'd argue that the 80s probably produced the best work than any other era. Maybe worth a separate discussion -- Best era for Comics 

I'd agree, for the superhero genre at least.

[500Club]

2 minutes ago, the blob said:

9 minutes ago, 500Club said:

No.

It's been suggested that creators are loathe to create in a work-for-hire environment, and forego possible future riches.  Aside from Mark Millar, I'm not seeing much evidence that creators are saving their best concepts for self publishing ventures, as tends to be the correlate of this argument.

Also, there is new stuff being created.  As examples, Grant Morrison created a bunch of new characters and concepts for his New X-Men run, and Bendis is at present creating new concepts for DC.   I think 'create something new' isn't so much a plea to actually create something new, but railing against the zillion derivative characters and concepts.

If they are going to create, they just need to get paid accordingly, that's all. Not like they own it, sure, but a premium.

I think at this point, creators' rights have changed to where creating a concept for the Big Two, that ends up being used in other media, would be pretty lucrative.

Anybody know if/how Liefeld and Nicieza did with Deadpool?

[Logan510]

4 minutes ago, the blob said:

If they are going to create, they just need to get paid accordingly, that's all. Not like they own it, sure, but a premium.

I thought they did...unless that's changed? Marvel at least used to have an incentive program that had a bonus structure and a % of future profits if the newly created characters were used in other properties like movies.

[the blob]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

I thought they did...unless that's changed? Marvel at least used to have an incentive program that had a bonus structure and a % of future profits if the newly created characters were used in other properties like movies.

right. I don't think these folks have a problem creating a character that is going to exist in the Xmen universe or as a spidey villain or whatever. they will make money and the character may not really have a lot of value outside a marvel property, unlike spawn, which is going to live in its own world.

[500Club]

18 minutes ago, KEY ISSUES Comics said:

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 2:32 PM, october said:

People who think modern comics are bad need to look past the junk being put out by the big two.

There's plenty of good titles that don't involve men in tights.

Yeah, and this the true Golden Age of comic books as far as I'm concerned.

NOTE: I stopped buying DC/Marvel stuff to read years ago, which is unfortunate but the endless reboots, variants, lack of continuity and endless 'events' is a turn off for me. 

Sturgeon's law.

Sure, '90% of everything is c##p', but there's always been a great 10% to be discovered.  Even in the loathed mid 90's, there were gems to be enjoyed.

On the flip side, in the much loved early 80's, despite Miller DD, CC/JB X-Men, Simonson Thor, Teen Titans  etc, there was still a preponderance of c^^p.

Edited February 4, 2019 by 500Club

[the blob]

Just now, 500Club said:

Sturgeon's law.

Sure, '90% of everything is ', but there's always been a great 10% to be discovered.  Even in the loathed mid 90's, there were gems to be enjoyed.

On the flip side, in the much loved early 80's, despite Miller DD, CC/JB X-Men, Simonson Thor, Teen Titans  etc, there was still a preponderance of .

At the time I thought some of the 90s stuff was fine. The X-books seemed fine, ASM was readable, I even liked Spider-Man 2099. Spawn was pretty good. I liked the run where Thor went insane. Peter David's Hulk was good. I liked Maxx. Didn't read much DC, if any, though.

[KEY ISSUES Comics]

9 minutes ago, 500Club said:

Sturgeon's law.

Sure, '90% of everything is ', but there's always been a great 10% to be discovered.  Even in the loathed mid 90's, there were gems to be enjoyed.

On the flip side, in the much loved early 80's, despite Miller DD, CC/JB X-Men, Simonson Thor, Teen Titans  etc, there was still a preponderance of .

'80s Marvel comics are my favorite superhero comics, but there is so much more variety available today for those who don't want to read superhero comics. That's what makes this the Golden Age in my opinion. Something for everyone. And so many wonderful works. However, there is plenty of garbage out there today as well. Perhaps more than in any other age, but the sheer quantity of quality material outweighs it all.  

Just like TV. So much great stuff available now, but also lots of terrible shows.

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, F For Fake said:

As for the main topic, I don't personally think that "people hate most modern books". I don't think it's true.

BUT, if you DO think it's true, it's probably because you are living in a time where everyone's opinion is being Facebooked, Tweeted and Youtube'd at you 24/7.

And CGC Boarded, too, of course!

Social media has given us the gift :cough: of constant exposure to everyone's opinions about every single thing that they encounter.

1

Ain't that the truth.

1 hour ago, F For Fake said:

If I had to wager (and if there was anyway to prove such a nebulous assertion, which there definitely isn't) I'd say that every generation has had MORE than its fair share of readers who hated the "modern" books of their time. Have you all ever spent any amount of time in a comic book shop, ever? I've been going to shops for 35 years, and in all of those times, the 80's, the 90's, the 00's, and now, there is ALWAYS SOME AWFUL MOUTH BREATHER RUNNING HIS TRAP ABOUT HOW EVERYTHING SUCKS NOW. But back in the day, if you wanted to know what people thought about the comics, you had to have the misfortune of running into these cretins at your local shop or store, or, you know, you had to wait two months for the letters column. Nowadays, you can have this negativity shot directly into your brain.

Probably the best post in the whole thread.