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Article How Amazing Fantasy # 15 OA ended in the library of congress
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101 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Crowzilla said:

Just have such a hard time with this story, and not just because it seems very opposite of the publicity-minded face of Marvel.

If Stan felt so bad about having and selling others' art, why didn't he return the AF15 art to Ditko after the SS4 sale? We know that on at least one other occasion Ditko accepted back art that he believed should have been returned to him. And while I have no problem believing that Ditko told a possible owner who was "gifted" the art from the company he made it for as a work for hire, that it wasn't his and he didn't care what happened to it - I think it would have been a different reaction if it had been Lee himself who had taken the art and then claimed ownership.

Was Stan unaware of the initiative of Marvel returning art to the artists in the 80s? Or did he just feel that if he had taken art before it was inventoried that the returning to artists part doesn't apply to him?

 

This is all going to be so much easier to talk about in 50 years. When everybody invested in the truth staying buried is dead. "Oh Silver Age Marvel art...it's okay, I guess...kind of stiff, I prefer late Capullo era myself."

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This was posted in a Marvel Comics Fans Facebook group late last year, and for brevity, I removed a lot of the comments from the flow of the discussion, which may make some of comments seem out of context, but kept them in there because it was pertinent to the topic.

Edit: not sure why it's showing-up so blurry, could be the site uses image compression. Here is a link to it where you can read it more clearly. Or click on the image below to get in close-up.

AF15.jpg

Edited by comicwiz
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2 minutes ago, NelsonAI said:

:gossip:

Anonymous donations do not qualify for charitable tax deductions.  For one, it would no longer be anonymous.  That's usually why it's referred to as a selfless act.

Yes they do, unless you're referring to leaving a Van Gogh on the door step of the museum in the middle of the night.

So long as the donee is a qualified charitable institution and issues you the necessary paperwork indicating you're the donor, and you show that paperwork to the IRS, then it will be deductible.  Just because the donee and the IRS know you're the donor doesn't mean that you're not anonymous to the rest of the world.

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But you are no longer "anonymous".  In order to qualify for a deduction you must be identified.  The LOC must know your name to fill out the paperwork and so does the IRS.  Therefore, you are no longer anonymous.  

Lawyered.

.

Edited by NelsonAI
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As for artwork that Marie drew for Ditko in Ditko style, including an iconic Spider-Man pin up used as a poster, I think there might be some confusion. 

Ditko drew the image for the six foot Spider-Man poster that was advertised and sold on the Bullpen pages in the mid 1960s (I had it hanging proudly in my room for years).
The poster was reissued a few years later in various smaller sizes, including in a MMMS poster set. 
The second poster looked like it was reworked by Marie Severin, and the other posters in the set looked reworked as well (including a Kirby Thor, a Kirby Hulk, and a Kirby Human Torch).

                           Ditko's poster   6 ft                                                            Marie Severin  rework
407554588_spideyposter1.jpg.a19d8a26153193536bcc14673a3a8c99.jpg  spideyposter2.jpg.58285910b6d8857b17e07ccb5f69f6eb.jpg

MMMS set with reworked posters
posters.jpg.6b0bf282a732936c3cd8b40ef6d4a294.jpg

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On 2/12/2019 at 5:56 PM, Crowzilla said:

Just have such a hard time with this story, and not just because it seems very opposite of the publicity-minded face of Marvel.

If Stan felt so bad about having and selling others' art, why didn't he return the AF15 art to Ditko after the SS4 sale? We know that on at least one other occasion Ditko accepted back art that he believed should have been returned to him. And while I have no problem believing that Ditko told a possible owner who was "gifted" the art from the company he made it for as a work for hire, that it wasn't his and he didn't care what happened to it - I think it would have been a different reaction if it had been Lee himself who had taken the art and then claimed ownership.

Was Stan unaware of the initiative of Marvel returning art to the artists in the 80s? Or did he just feel that if he had taken art before it was inventoried that the returning to artists part doesn't apply to him?

 

from all Ive read here and elsewhere, and the above post, my guess is that Stan donated the art.  It seems plausible to me that at some point (if it weren't let out the back door already) that it would have been offered to Stan, or brought to his attention, and he secured it as his "right" as editor and publisher etc. And that this happened before the 80s when the art returns controversy happened. (the way so much art disappeared from Marvel offices, Id place the data Stan got the pages was after a move between 1965 and 1970 (maybe when Goodman sold to Cadence?) As the 70swore on It would have been too late. Artists rights were gaining steam, and art was also disappearing!  Any of the thiefs who saw these pages would have swiped them immediately.  

I believe bit was Stan because, 1) only someone financially secure would give them away, 2) anyone afraid of legal title to the artwork issues would give it away, and 3) anyone afraid of the potential for embarrassment and scorn at the reveal that he had it in his possession would opt to give it rather than sell it.

 I think all three apply to Stan Lee... and hardly anyone else.

I think as Spider-Man grew into one of Stan's greatest claims to fame before 1980, he would have felt entitled to it. Marvel was considered the owner of all the art, artists never fought that assumption as yet, and companies kept art that was bought for use in their advertising and marketing all the time back before corporations set rules about such things. (I had a friend whose family owned Arrow shirts.  Their ads in the 1920s and 30s used paintings by Leyendecker and Norman Rockwell.  The family took them home to display thinking they were theirs to keep.  But when the company was sold and the existence of these amazing pieces surfaced, they were forced to give them back as the purchaser of the company now legally owned them as company property.) 

Assuming Stan had the artwork all these years, its possible at some point as Marvel art was being listed and distributed back to the pencillers, inkers and writers, Stan (as the writer) got these pages, even though splitting them 50/50 with Steve would have made better sense given their value and importance....  Or if Stan already had them, that at some point he spoke to Ditko who flatly refused them out of indifference, or even truly believing he had no right to them at all. This may tie in with Romitamans story of Stan having sold the Surfer art and getting bad press/reactions ... Stan may in fact have come to realize the pages would end up an albatross around his neck to his reputation. So Stan put them back in his files.

Years later Stan made a decision:  since Ditko who rightly deserved them had passed on it, and they couldn't be sold without creating a stink, Stan chose to gift them anonymously to American history for posterity. And be done with them.  Possibly knowing or thinking that his action would someday become public,  shining a fresh benevolent glow on his memory.

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On 3/13/2022 at 7:13 PM, Aman619 said:

from all Ive read here and elsewhere, and the above post, my guess is that Stan donated the art.  It seems plausible to me that at some point (if it weren't let out the back door already) that it would have been offered to Stan, or brought to his attention, and he secured it as his "right" as editor and publisher etc. And that this happened before the 80s when the art returns controversy happened. (the way so much art disappeared from Marvel offices, Id place the data Stan got the pages was after a move between 1965 and 1970 (maybe when Goodman sold to Cadence?) As the 70swore on It would have been too late. Artists rights were gaining steam, and art was also disappearing!  Any of the thiefs who saw these pages would have swiped them immediately.  

I believe bit was Stan because, 1) only someone financially secure would give them away, 2) anyone afraid of legal title to the artwork issues would give it away, and 3) anyone afraid of the potential for embarrassment and scorn at the reveal that he had it in his possession would opt to give it rather than sell it.

 I think all three apply to Stan Lee... and hardly anyone else.

I think as Spider-Man grew into one of Stan's greatest claims to fame before 1980, he would have felt entitled to it. Marvel was considered the owner of all the art, artists never fought that assumption as yet, and companies kept art that was bought for use in their advertising and marketing all the time back before corporations set rules about such things. (I had a friend whose family owned Arrow shirts.  Their ads in the 1920s and 30s used paintings by Leyendecker and Norman Rockwell.  The family took them home to display thinking they were theirs to keep.  But when the company was sold and the existence of these amazing pieces surfaced, they were forced to give them back as the purchaser of the company now legally owned them as company property.) 

Assuming Stan had the artwork all these years, its possible at some point as Marvel art was being listed and distributed back to the pencillers, inkers and writers, Stan (as the writer) got these pages, even though splitting them 50/50 with Steve would have made better sense given their value and importance....  Or if Stan already had them, that at some point he spoke to Ditko who flatly refused them out of indifference, or even truly believing he had no right to them at all. This may tie in with Romitamans story of Stan having sold the Surfer art and getting bad press/reactions ... Stan may in fact have come to realize the pages would end up an albatross around his neck to his reputation. So Stan put them back in his files.

Years later Stan made a decision:  since Ditko who rightly deserved them had passed on it, and they couldn't be sold without creating a stink, Stan chose to gift them anonymously to American history for posterity. And be done with them.  Possibly knowing or thinking that his action would someday become public,  shining a fresh benevolent glow on his memory.

+1 

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On 3/13/2022 at 9:13 PM, Aman619 said:

from all Ive read here and elsewhere, and the above post, my guess is that Stan donated the art.  It seems plausible to me that at some point (if it weren't let out the back door already) that it would have been offered to Stan, or brought to his attention, and he secured it as his "right" as editor and publisher etc. And that this happened before the 80s when the art returns controversy happened. (the way so much art disappeared from Marvel offices, Id place the data Stan got the pages was after a move between 1965 and 1970 (maybe when Goodman sold to Cadence?) As the 70swore on It would have been too late. Artists rights were gaining steam, and art was also disappearing!  Any of the thiefs who saw these pages would have swiped them immediately.  

I believe bit was Stan because, 1) only someone financially secure would give them away, 2) anyone afraid of legal title to the artwork issues would give it away, and 3) anyone afraid of the potential for embarrassment and scorn at the reveal that he had it in his possession would opt to give it rather than sell it.

 I think all three apply to Stan Lee... and hardly anyone else.

I think as Spider-Man grew into one of Stan's greatest claims to fame before 1980, he would have felt entitled to it. Marvel was considered the owner of all the art, artists never fought that assumption as yet, and companies kept art that was bought for use in their advertising and marketing all the time back before corporations set rules about such things. (I had a friend whose family owned Arrow shirts.  Their ads in the 1920s and 30s used paintings by Leyendecker and Norman Rockwell.  The family took them home to display thinking they were theirs to keep.  But when the company was sold and the existence of these amazing pieces surfaced, they were forced to give them back as the purchaser of the company now legally owned them as company property.) 

Assuming Stan had the artwork all these years, its possible at some point as Marvel art was being listed and distributed back to the pencillers, inkers and writers, Stan (as the writer) got these pages, even though splitting them 50/50 with Steve would have made better sense given their value and importance....  Or if Stan already had them, that at some point he spoke to Ditko who flatly refused them out of indifference, or even truly believing he had no right to them at all. This may tie in with Romitamans story of Stan having sold the Surfer art and getting bad press/reactions ... Stan may in fact have come to realize the pages would end up an albatross around his neck to his reputation. So Stan put them back in his files.

Years later Stan made a decision:  since Ditko who rightly deserved them had passed on it, and they couldn't be sold without creating a stink, Stan chose to gift them anonymously to American history for posterity. And be done with them.  Possibly knowing or thinking that his action would someday become public,  shining a fresh benevolent glow on his memory.

I don’t think Stan Lee’s handlers and daughter would EVER allow that to happen! Never!!!!

They we’re fighting to take every dollar they could. They would never let millions walk out the back door, unless it was into their back doors.

Edited by Timely
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On 3/13/2022 at 7:13 PM, Aman619 said:

from all Ive read here and elsewhere, and the above post, my guess is that Stan donated the art.  It seems plausible to me that at some point (if it weren't let out the back door already) that it would have been offered to Stan, or brought to his attention, and he secured it as his "right" as editor and publisher etc. And that this happened before the 80s when the art returns controversy happened. (the way so much art disappeared from Marvel offices, Id place the data Stan got the pages was after a move between 1965 and 1970 (maybe when Goodman sold to Cadence?) As the 70swore on It would have been too late. Artists rights were gaining steam, and art was also disappearing!  Any of the thiefs who saw these pages would have swiped them immediately.  

I believe bit was Stan because, 1) only someone financially secure would give them away, 2) anyone afraid of legal title to the artwork issues would give it away, and 3) anyone afraid of the potential for embarrassment and scorn at the reveal that he had it in his possession would opt to give it rather than sell it.

 I think all three apply to Stan Lee... and hardly anyone else.

I think as Spider-Man grew into one of Stan's greatest claims to fame before 1980, he would have felt entitled to it. Marvel was considered the owner of all the art, artists never fought that assumption as yet, and companies kept art that was bought for use in their advertising and marketing all the time back before corporations set rules about such things. (I had a friend whose family owned Arrow shirts.  Their ads in the 1920s and 30s used paintings by Leyendecker and Norman Rockwell.  The family took them home to display thinking they were theirs to keep.  But when the company was sold and the existence of these amazing pieces surfaced, they were forced to give them back as the purchaser of the company now legally owned them as company property.) 

Assuming Stan had the artwork all these years, its possible at some point as Marvel art was being listed and distributed back to the pencillers, inkers and writers, Stan (as the writer) got these pages, even though splitting them 50/50 with Steve would have made better sense given their value and importance....  Or if Stan already had them, that at some point he spoke to Ditko who flatly refused them out of indifference, or even truly believing he had no right to them at all. This may tie in with Romitamans story of Stan having sold the Surfer art and getting bad press/reactions ... Stan may in fact have come to realize the pages would end up an albatross around his neck to his reputation. So Stan put them back in his files.

Years later Stan made a decision:  since Ditko who rightly deserved them had passed on it, and they couldn't be sold without creating a stink, Stan chose to gift them anonymously to American history for posterity. And be done with them.  Possibly knowing or thinking that his action would someday become public,  shining a fresh benevolent glow on his memory.

Your analysis is very humane, but Stan's brain didn't work that way. 

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On 3/14/2022 at 1:38 PM, glendgold said:

Your analysis is very humane, but Stan's brain didn't work that way. 

I would think than rather staying anonymous or downplaying his donation, Stan Lee would have broadcasted it and there would be publicity pics/billboards.

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On 3/14/2022 at 1:02 PM, Timely said:

I don’t think Stan Lee’s handlers and daughter would EVER allow that to happen! Never!!!!

They we’re fighting to take every dollar they could. They would never let millions walk out the back door, unless it was into their back doors.

Definitely. But this was 2008, they didnt have nearly the control they did a decade later. I had trouble thinking who Stan would have delegated the contact with the Smithsonian for these reasons too. But I think Stan had his wits about him back then

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On 3/14/2022 at 1:38 PM, glendgold said:

Your analysis is very humane, but Stan's brain didn't work that way. 

My reasoning is whatever Stan did building his career wasn't the same man looking back at 90 and thinking of his legacy.  Sure he chased every buck and grabbed every spotlight, but he had weathered a lot of criticisms over the last half of his life about all this decisions he did regarding his artists and credit for the work.  And I phrased my ideas from a Selfish point of view on purpose to jibe with how he led his life beforehand.

 

Edited by Aman619
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On 3/14/2022 at 2:14 PM, Will_K said:

I would think than rather staying anonymous or downplaying his donation, Stan Lee would have broadcasted it and there would be publicity pics/billboards.

yes, Stan always sought the limelight, but this would have only invited more criticism and underscored his greed.  Im projecting, but I dont think thats where he wanted it to go at that point in his life.

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and if none of the top OA dealers ever got a whiff of where the art was all these years (no bragging collectors over the years) to me that means it was off the market early on by someone at Marvel.  Maybe as far back as the first time it was reprinted.

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