kav Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 ADAMANTIUM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakman29 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 47 minutes ago, kav said: Paging@oakman29 GolddiamondletmetellyouwhatkindofwhatiswhatCapwouldneverchargeanyoneforasignaturenever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 Just now, oakman29 said: GolddiamondletmetellyouwhatkindofwhatiswhatCapwouldneverchargeanyoneforasignaturenever. Yougotthatrighthegivesoutsupersoldiersigslikecrazy!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dupont2005 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said: Because the world doesn't operate on "how I collect rules, and how you collect sucks." Nobody is "paying some random stranger to verify a signature." That's not how the SS program works, or has ever worked. The "talent" has no claim to "the pay." Not sure what there is to "get." "The pay" is based on the book and its condition...NOT the signature. Have you ever participated in the Signature Series program...? The signature is labor on behalf of the creator though, right? They have to travel to these conventions, spend days signing books when I’m sure they’d rather just be enjoying San Diego, and they’re supposed to do it without compensation so flippers can list these books on eBay the second they get signed to pay for their trips to CGC? That’s an actual justification that’s been given to me on these boards countless times. So like I said, don’t pay for the sig at all and let the market dictate what his sig is worth, or pay for it. The one thing a creator has power over is their work, I can’t see the justification in saying they shouldn’t use that power however they feel. If if you’re not paying a stranger to verify a signature then are the witnesses working for free? i haven’t participated in the signature series program, I’ve never even submitted a book. The only slab I own was purchased because it was the same price as a raw copy so I figured why not. I always request my (raw) signatures and sketch commissions be personalized to me, they’re never leaving my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said: I agree with everything you said, but I guess that you knew that you didn't need to convince me... Also it seems the same assertions get made every time this thread comes, but some don't understand and as well and think the same of you that your just repeating when they are too. And now I am too Just wanted to say I appreciate that you try Some things seem destined for circles, but it is what it is when there are different environments. Some just have more leverage or control of things than others..... So long as bad arguments keep being made, they ought to be countered with good ones, regardless of the disingenuous motives of those involved. It would be a mistake to assume that there aren't people seeing these discussions for the very first time. There are far more people reading this...some for the very first time...than participating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 There have been several salient arguments posed that went unanswered with all due respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said: So long as bad arguments keep being made, they ought to be countered with good ones, regardless of the disingenuous motives of those involved. It would be a mistake to assume that there aren't people seeing these discussions for the very first time. There are far more people reading this...some for the very first time...than participating. I agree and I was one of them, but unfortunately, until everyone is in the "game" so to speak it may never...come to light, but it doesn't hurt to try... That goes for artists too, I know some are on these boards, and I don't know how long cgc's signature series has been around etc ...... My point is as long as there are new people the "tale" will be passed down l, it's good to try and set the record straight... It's hard for me to believe that those artists that sell SS'd copies on their site don't have at least a working knowledge, but they may just be more willing to believe what's going around the water cooler or see it as beneficial... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, kav said: There have been several salient arguments posed that went unanswered with all due respect. Nobodys perfect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakman29 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Isn't it cool when you meet your heroes in life, and they oblige you with a generous handshake or signature. I think the two best times I've ever had with an artist was Bernie Wrightson, and Mike Mignola. With some celebrities one day I'll tell you guys some of my cool experiences. Ken Aldred and ADAMANTIUM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 1 minute ago, dupont2005 said: The signature is labor on behalf of the creator though, right? Sure. And that labor deserves compensation...compensation meaning "compensatory with the effort." 1 minute ago, dupont2005 said: They have to travel to these conventions, spend days signing books when I’m sure they’d rather just be enjoying San Diego, and they’re supposed to do it without compensation so flippers can list these books on eBay the second they get signed to pay for their trips to CGC? That’s an actual justification that’s been given to me on these boards countless times. Nobody has said creators should be uncompensated for their effort. That's not the issue. But your reasoning is bad: these creators come to these conventions whether they sign or not. They are not "owed" by the public simply for showing up. That's between them and the convention organizers. Again: the value of these books is in what they are, and what condition they are in. A signature CAN add a measure of value to, say, a New Mutants #98 in 9.8 condition. It adds absolutely nothing to an X-Force #40 in 6.5 condition. And the creator has nothing whatsoever to do with the item or its preservation, so why should they share in any of the reward...if any...for that? 5 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: So like I said, don’t pay for the sig at all and let the market dictate what his sig is worth, or pay for it. The one thing a creator has power over is their work, I can’t see the justification in saying they shouldn’t use that power however they feel. Lots of people have lots of power they shouldn't use "however they feel." Having the power to do something isn't justification for doing so. Since when does "might make right"...? No one is saying they shouldn't charge...the issue is charging a different price for the same service. That's it. You wouldn't tolerate it at the grocery store. Why should fans tolerate it from creators? 9 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: If if you’re not paying a stranger to verify a signature then are the witnesses working for free? Witnesses are not strangers. That's not how the program works. 10 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: i haven’t participated in the signature series program, Right. Just like everyone who doesn't see a problem with creators charging a CGC punishment tax. No skin in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 1 minute ago, oakman29 said: Isn't it cool when you meet your heroes in life, and they oblige you with a generous handshake or signature. I think the two best times I've ever had with an artist was Bernie Wrightson, and Mike Mignola. With some celebrities one day I'll tell you guys some of my cool experiences. Tell them the one where you sent bees after the guy that wouldnt sign your Cap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dupont2005 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said: Sure. And that labor deserves compensation...compensation meaning "compensatory with the effort." Nobody has said creators should be uncompensated for their effort. That's not the issue. But your reasoning is bad: these creators come to these conventions whether they sign or not. They are not "owed" by the public simply for showing up. That's between them and the convention organizers. Again: the value of these books is in what they are, and what condition they are in. A signature CAN add a measure of value to, say, a New Mutants #98 in 9.8 condition. It adds absolutely nothing to an X-Force #40 in 6.5 condition. And the creator has nothing whatsoever to do with the item or its preservation, so why should they share in any of the reward...if any...for that? Lots of people have lots of power they shouldn't use "however they feel." Having the power to do something isn't justification for doing so. Since when does "might make right"...? No one is saying they shouldn't charge...the issue is charging a different price for the same service. That's it. You wouldn't tolerate it at the grocery store. Why should fans tolerate it from creators? Witnesses are not strangers. That's not how the program works. Right. Just like everyone who doesn't see a problem with creators charging a CGC punishment tax. No skin in the game. The creators show up to make hey spend all day signing books, signing books is how they make money. It’s the reason they attend these shows. Not all of them are paid to attend by show promoters. In fact, I’d venture only a tiny fraction of the talent attending any show has had their accommodations paid. So you personally know the witnesses? If not that would make them strangers. Why is their labor worth more than the creators? I pay for signatures and sketches, by the way. I even pay people here on the boards to get them for me since I don’t attend conventions. If I pay a boardie $50 to stand in line for me to get a signature and the talent wants $50 himself I would absolutely gladly pay the talent their asking price. Edited February 27, 2019 by dupont2005 kav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 1 minute ago, dupont2005 said: The creators show up to make hey spend all day signing books, signing books is how they make money. It’s the reason they attend these shows. Not all of them are paid to attend by show promoters. In fact, I’d venture only a tiny fraction of the talent attending any show has had their accommodations paid. So you personally know the witnesses? If not that would make them strangers. Why is their labor worth more than the creators? I pay for signatures and sketches, by the way. I even pay people here on the boards to get them for me since I don’t attend conventions. If I pay a boardie $50 to stand in line for me to get a signature and the talent wants $50 himself I would absolutely gladly pay the talent their asking price. Again: no one has suggested that they shouldn't be compensated. But, by the same token, the public doesn't "owe" them business, and there are several creators who sign absolutely for free (like the Simonsons.) Just because a witness may not be personally known by a customer doesn't mean they are strangers. You're not "paying some random stranger to verify a signature", as you initially claimed. That's not how the program works. Don't go changing the goalposts. The labor of a witness is more than the labor to sign a book. Again: if you participated in the SS program, you would know how it works. You sound just like the people who argue for higher taxes. "I would gladly pay higher taxes, so you should, too!" Except there's nothing preventing you from paying higher taxes right now. You don't want to pay higher taxes unless everyone else has to, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dupont2005 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 No, it is a random stranger. You don’t know the guy, which makes him a stranger, you didn’t CHOOSE him, which makes it random, you didn’t attend the con for him, you attended for the creator in question. Some bands perform gigs for free, some charge a ton of money. Some bands charge different fees for different gigs, depending on various factors including who is booking them. What one act does has no bearing on what the other does. The labor to dig ditches is more than the labor to collect dividends. It’s not about who is providing more labor, it’s about who is providing more valuable labor. Nobody books a flight and pays $300 for a ticket to see the witness. kav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakman29 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) God you can make a cool conversation seem like such a chore. Edited February 27, 2019 by oakman29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: No, it is a random stranger. You don’t know the guy, which makes him a stranger, you didn’t CHOOSE him, which makes it random, you didn’t attend the con for him, you attended for the creator in question. Some bands perform gigs for free, some charge a ton of money. Some bands charge different fees for different gigs, depending on various factors including who is booking them. What one act does has no bearing on what the other does. The labor to dig ditches is more than the labor to collect dividends. It’s not about who is providing more labor, it’s about who is providing more valuable labor. Nobody books a flight and pays $300 for a ticket to see the witness. Wow you nailed every point perfectly! Definitely a 'random stranger' by any definition! Edited February 27, 2019 by kav oakman29 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: No, it is a random stranger. You don’t know the guy, which makes him a stranger, you didn’t CHOOSE him, which makes it random, you didn’t attend the con for him, you attended for the creator in question. You're reallllllllllllly reaching to not be wrong on this. Again: you don't know the SS program, or how it works, so you're not in a position to say. I, for example, personally know several of the "on hand" witnesses at CGC, as well as various other witnesses who work for facilitators around the country. And "some random stranger" implies that they not only have no connection to the customer, but to CGC as well, as if you just randomly pulled someone you don't know out of the crowd to come watch your book(s) get signed. Again: that's not how it works. So, no, it is not "some random stranger" at all, and none of which matters one iota in the first place. Nice try, though! 36 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: Some bands perform gigs for free, some charge a ton of money. Some bands charge different fees for different gigs, depending on various factors including who is booking them. What one act does has no bearing on what the other does. Not in dispute. What's your point? None of this contradicts the fact that the public doesn't "owe" a creator anything, whether they charge $10,000,000 for their sig, or sign for free, whether they come to sign, or whether they don't. 36 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: The labor to dig ditches is more than the labor to collect dividends. It’s not about who is providing more labor, it’s about who is providing more valuable labor. Nobody books a flight and pays $300 for a ticket to see the witness. Such bad reasoning. Oy! I guarantee you, no one is booking a flight and paying $300 for a ticket to get a single Fine+ copy of X-Factor #40 signed. I PROMISE you. In the case of the signature vs. the witness, the witness is doing more labor. Really. And if you want to compare who is "providing more valuable labor", I'm happy to point you to hundreds and thousands of examples of signatures that didn't add a dime to the value of a comic, whereas, the value of the witness remains constant. You should familiarize yourself with the SS program. Who knows, you might like it. Edited February 27, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dupont2005 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 If I go to Denny’s and order breakfast, a random stranger is cooking it. That does not imply they have no connection to Denny’s. The public doesn’t owe the creator anything and the creator doesn’t owe the public anything. They’re free to set prices for their wigs and we are all free to not buy them. The value of the labor dies not relate to the value of the comic. The point is people want the sig. That is the value. Even if they can’t turn a profit on it. And I absolutely would travel and pay for Crumb or Speigelman to sign a napkin for me kav 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: If I go to Denny’s and order breakfast, a random stranger is cooking it. That does not imply they have no connection to Denny’s. No, but your initial comment did. Here it is: "People will happily pay some random stranger to verify a signature but get offended when the talent wants pay too, and that I don’t get." If you go to Denny's, "some random stranger" isn't making your breakfast: the cook is. "Some random stranger" does not imply a witness working for CGC, OR a cook working for Denny's. It implies "some random stranger." You worded it poorly, and don't want to admit it. Keep tryin'! This is fun! 18 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: The public doesn’t owe the creator anything and the creator doesn’t owe the public anything. Correct. 18 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: They’re free to set prices for their wigs and we are all free to not buy them. I think you mean "sigs"..."wigs" would be weird...but otherwise, correct. 18 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: The value of the labor dies not relate to the value of the comic. Correct! Which is why the creator doesn't deserve to "get paid" a different amount for the signature than they would otherwise charge everyone else. Now you're with me! 18 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: The point is people want the sig. That is the value. Even if they can’t turn a profit on it. Of course. Not in dispute. 18 minutes ago, dupont2005 said: And I absolutely would travel and pay for Crumb or Speigelman to sign a napkin for me Ok...again, you're like the person who says "everyone should pay higher taxes!" when there's nothing preventing you from paying higher taxes on your own. If you want to do that, fine...but you have no business demanding everyone else do it, too. Edited February 27, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Although, now that I think about it....I *might* just be interested in an Art Adams wig, now that you mention it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
