Dear Bronze Age Collector: Where would Hulk 181 place among the top Silver Age keys? 0

[bronze johnny]

2 minutes ago, engelhard said:

in bronze age times... no

The goal of this thread is not to judge Wolverine in the context of how he would have been received by Silver Age readers and collectors if he first appeared in the '60s. It's about where would Hulk 181 rank if its relative scarcity was similar to the greatest Marvel SA keys.

Edited March 2, 2019 by bronze johnny

[engelhard]

2 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

The goal of this thread is not to judge Wolverine in the context of how he would have been received by Silver Age readers and collectors if he first appeared in the '60s. It's about where would Hulk 181 rank if its relative scarcity was similar to the greatest Marvel SA keys.

and i already said silverage hulk 181 would not even come close to any major silverage key

[bronze johnny]

Just now, engelhard said:

and i already said silverage hulk 181 would not even come close to any major silverage key

Yes, you did and gave your reason. I raised a question regarding your reason as to Wolverine being a villain. Takes me back to my question as to why do you believe Wolverine wouldn't come close to any Silver Age key if the relative scarcity of Hulk 181 is similar to that of those great keys?

[ThothAmon]

35 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

You think the Silver Surfer (my favorite Marvel Superhero) achieved the same level of success in the history of comics as Wolverine? 

Definitely not. I was just trying to think of a silver book that came closest to having the impact of ih181. ASM 129 might be a better pick but it’s not silver. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

Do you think the X-Men would have become the greatest comic book of the last 25 years of the 20th Century without Wolverine? The chemistry required Wolverine. Wolverine was the major pillar of Giant-Size X-Men 1 and the new team -

I don't think this is accurate at all.

It is well known that Claremont and Cockrum didn't like Wolverine, and wanted to get rid of him. Byrne was the guy who wanted to keep Wolverine around, and who convinced Claremont to do it.

I did an analysis several years ago about who appeared on the most on covers from GS #1 to X-Men #200. The winner?

Storm. 

And covers are directed and approved by editors. In fact, for the first 50 covers, Wolverine only appears on 30 of them, and mostly in the background. Storm appears on 42.

On the first 10 covers, Storm appears on all of them, while Wolverine only appears on 4.

Wolverine was a slow burn...no pun intended...and, despite claims of some, was not the megahit superstar he became until the early/mid 80s (82-83.)

[bronze johnny]

20 hours ago, Chillax23 said:

It is an interesting question. 

Wolverine prior to the MCU was certainly Marvel's second most popular super-hero (behind Spider-Man) - since the MCU, Iron Man has risen in popularity quite a bit, as has the Hulk, Captain America and Thor.  Still Wolverine is certainly a lock to be in the top 5 Marvel Super heroes in terms of popularity.  The only thing really constraining the value of IH181 is its lack of scarcity - so in this hypothetical situation where that is removed, I see no reason that it could not be a top 5 Marvel book if it was as "scarce" as say AF15 (which is not scarce).

The real problem in this scenario is that the X-Men allowed Wolverine to be Wolverine, so without the X-Men who knows what this character turns out to be, so could you put it above X-Men 1?

Thanks for sharing your excellent insight Chillax23There's a flip side to the where would Wolverine be without the X-Men; where would the X-Men be without Wolverine? We'll never know how successful the groundbreaking X-Men books of the Summer of '75 would have been without Wolverine. At best, it's safe to say the relationship between Wolverine and the X-Men was mutually beneficial. The rise of Wolverine is as much attributed to the Mutant Age of Comics that dominated Marvel Comics for decades. Wolverine has been at the core of this success. 

It's debatable whether Spiderman is even currently more popular than Wolverine. I've mentioned in another post about Wolverine's incredible popularity among children and if that's a sign of the future-Wolverine will continue to grow in iconic status as crazy as that might sound. 

I want to mention some things about Wolverine and his place in the Bronze Age and the impact we continue to see from that era. Wolverine is a product of the Bronze Age of Diversity- the first era in comics when the major comic book publishers decided to publish books with superheroes starring in their own comics at an unprecedented level never seen before in the history of the American Comic Book (Shang Chi, Red Wolf, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Black Lightning, Black Goliath, Omega the Unknown, etc.) who more accurately represented the changing demographics of America during the 1970s. The rise of the antihero coincided with the rise of diversity, especially after the idealism and Civil Rights Movement of the 60s and the positive views of government came to an end with the assasinations of RFK Jr. and MLK Jr., the never ending Vietnam War, and the rise of Nixon that eventually ended with Watergate. Bronze Age realism that started with Adams and O'Neil laid also had a tremendous impact on the changing comics of the Bronze Age. The peak of this change and the apex of the Bronze Age of Diversity occurs when a new team of X-Men made up of superheroes who readers from different racial and ethnic backgrounds, not to mention the experiences they encounter because of these differences in appearance (not to mention the mutated powers they possessed) in a society that is at a minimum, uncomfortable with these differences, can also be identified by the readers who represented the changing American society at that time. Wolverine is the greatest part of this revolutionary point in comic book history, especially since he and the X-Men went on to become the center of the Marvel Universe for decades and the Age of Diversity that started in the Bronze Age has continued into today where comic book publishers have gone further into creating superheroes that represent the more open society we live in today in America. The future of the American Comic Book will depend on its continuing to publish books that will attract a more diverse posterity in America. It's also just as significant to mention that the decline in confidence in political and religious institutions to resolve the issues of the day will attract comic book readers to antihero superheroes and Wolverine has been, and continues to be, the greatest antihero in comic book history- a key component that a teenage Peter Parker-Spiderman can never have (even though it's been attempted many times). That's not a knock on Spidey because he represents an extremely significant part of what comic book readers will continue to seek out long after guys like me on the boards are gone from this "MCU." Spiderman is along with Wolverine, one of the comic book icons of the 20th Century so I'm not sure we can easily say one is more popular than the other. There will be periods of time where one has a "hot" story line or hit movie where greater short term focus will be on one more than the other. 

Finally, agree with you that Hulk 181 would rank among the top 5 Marvel SA keys. I'm going to say that Hulk 181 is among the top 3.

Again, thanks!

john

[bronze johnny]

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I don't think this is accurate at all.

It is well known that Claremont and Cockrum didn't like Wolverine, and wanted to get rid of him. Byrne was the guy who wanted to keep Wolverine around, and who convinced Claremont to do it.

I did an analysis several years ago about who appeared on the most on covers from GS #1 to X-Men #200. The winner?

Storm. 

And covers are directed and approved by editors. In fact, for the first 50 covers, Wolverine only appears on 30 of them, and mostly in the background. Storm appears on 42.

On the first 10 covers, Storm appears on all of them, while Wolverine only appears on 4.

Wolverine was a slow burn...no pun intended...and, despite claims of some, was not the megahit superstar he became until the early/mid 80s (82-83.)

Thanks for pointing that out. Do you think I'm talking about an immediate rise to the upper echelons of popularity for Wolverine after the X-Men comic takes off? We will never know whether the X-Men would have been successful or not without Wolverine despite what Claremont and Cockrum may have thought. Took time for Wolverine to be the iconic character he is. As far as cover appearances- so what? Again Wolverine, like Deadpool (who if my memory serves me correctly had 3 cover appearances in X-Force from his second appearance in X-Force 2 to X-Force 21), hit superstardom later on and it doesn't result in the Wolverine needing the X-Men to succeed or vice versa. We'll never know. What we do know is Wolverine was successful within the X-Men and there's no reason to doubt that his success was part of the X-Men's success- fact that Wolverine is an icon means at some point his role in the X-Men was a core component. It's doubtful the X-Men would have been as successful without Wolverine.

Again thanks!

Edited March 2, 2019 by bronze johnny

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 3/2/2019 at 10:45 AM, bronze johnny said:

The goal of this thread is not to judge Wolverine in the context of how he would have been received by Silver Age readers and collectors if he first appeared in the '60s. It's about where would Hulk 181 rank if its relative scarcity was similar to the greatest Marvel SA keys.

Scarcity doesn't affect whether something is a key. The content of the book does. But scarcity will have an effect on the value.

[bronze johnny]

56 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Scarcity doesn't affect whether something is a key. The content of the book does. But scarcity will have an effect on the value.

There's no question Hulk 181 is an iconic key because of its content. Comparing an established BA key to SA keys requires that the relative scarcity be similar. We can spend from here to eternity arguing that the origin story in AF 15 is better than the Hulk's encounter with Wolverine. They are classic first appearance stories.

Can I ask you why you keep trying to throw red herrings even after you've expressed your position regarding Hulk 181? You made your point about Hulk 181 not being the first appearance of Wolverine so I get you take the one panel Wolverine as the defining first appearance and respectfully disagree. So why continue from there? 

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by bronze johnny

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

36 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

There's no question Hulk 181 is an iconic key because of its content. Comparing an established BA key to SA keys requires that the relative scarcity be similar. We can spend from here to eternity arguing that the origin story in AF 15 is better than the Hulk's encounter with Wolverine. They are classic first appearance stories.

Can I ask you why you keep trying to throw red herrings even after you've expressed your position regarding Hulk 181? You made your point about Hulk 181 not being the first appearance of Wolverine so I get you take the one panel Wolverine as the defining first appearance and respectfully disagree. So why continue from there? 

 

I said nothing about "defining"; I said it's Wolverine's first appearance, and it is. The market considers 181 more important, and I don't have a problem with that. But the reality of Wolverine's appearance in the previous issue would certainly have an effect in any ranking of keys. It seems you want to ignore things that are obvious aspects of any comparison.

[bronze johnny]

20 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I said nothing about "defining"; I said it's Wolverine's first appearance, and it is. The market considers 181 more important, and I don't have a problem with that. But the reality of Wolverine's appearance in the previous issue would certainly have an effect in any ranking of keys. It seems you want to ignore things that are obvious aspects of any comparison.

This is what you posted earlier:

"This is where I stopped reading. It's his first *full* appearance, btu not his first appearance.You said" 

Wolverine's first full appearance is the appearance that matters. I'm not going to get into the one panel = appearance argument. Going to mention what I call the "market defines Hulk 181 argument" where the determination of Hulk 181's place in the history of comic books as the iconic Bronze Age key is determined by the market and not collectors. Fascinating how the "market" is conveniently used to define a book in the case of Hulk 181 as if this book is exclusively guided by the Invisible Hand rather than by the collectors who grew up and later studied the Bronze Age and the era that followed. The market is the result of Hulk 181's desirability. The market is not the cause of Hulk 181's desirability. This book has stood the test of time. The notion that the market defines this book cheapens it- a shallow attempt to knock it. The fact is that Hulk 181 is defined as the book it is because of its content and collectors like myself don't ignore the essence of what makes this book the key it is. The notion that Hulk 181 can't be compared to the SA Marvel keys because Wolverine appeared in a panel in the preceding issue with no defining context is a weak attempt to put this book down. So I get you don't see the book as comparable to the SA keys for this reason. Just disagree with your position.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

6 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

This is what you posted earlier:

"This is where I stopped reading. It's his first *full* appearance, btu not his first appearance.You said" 

Wolverine's first full appearance is the appearance that matters. I'm not going to get into the one panel = appearance argument. Going to mention what I call the "market defines Hulk 181 argument" where the determination of Hulk 181's place in the history of comic books as the iconic Bronze Age key is determined by the market and not collectors. Fascinating how the "market" is conveniently used to define a book in the case of Hulk 181 as if this book is exclusively guided by the Invisible Hand rather than by the collectors who grew up and later studied the Bronze Age and the era that followed. The market is the result of Hulk 181's desirability. The market is not the cause of Hulk 181's desirability. This book has stood the test of time. The notion that the market defines this book cheapens it- a shallow attempt to knock it. The fact is that Hulk 181 is defined as the book it is because of its content and collectors like myself don't ignore the essence of what makes this book the key it is. The notion that Hulk 181 can't be compared to the SA Marvel keys because Wolverine appeared in a panel in the preceding issue with no defining context is a weak attempt to put this book down. So I get you don't see the book as comparable to the SA keys for this reason. Just disagree with your position.

The market determines what is more valuable. The market determines what is more desirable. But the market has no say on what is a first appearance. That is determined by the content. I'm not trying to knock down Hulk 181. I'm simply pointing out that the fact that 181 is not Wolverine's first appearance is going to have a negative impact on where the book would fall amongst keys in the hypothetical situation you're proposing. If a one-page (it may be one panel, but it's a full-page panel) appearance was irrelevant, then Hulk 180 would be no more valuable that the other common issues in that run of Hulk.

Based on what you're saying now about the market, it seems what you're looking for is not where a hypothetical Silver-Age Hulk 181 would rank amongst keys, but rather where it would rank in dollar value.

[bronze johnny]

11 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

The market determines what is more valuable. The market determines what is more desirable. But the market has no say on what is a first appearance. That is determined by the content. I'm not trying to knock down Hulk 181. I'm simply pointing out that the fact that 181 is not Wolverine's first appearance is going to have a negative impact on where the book would fall amongst keys in the hypothetical situation you're proposing. If a one-page (it may be one panel, but it's a full-page panel) appearance was irrelevant, then Hulk 180 would be no more valuable that the other common issues in that run of Hulk.

Based on what you're saying now about the market, it seems what you're looking for is not where a hypothetical Silver-Age Hulk 181 would rank amongst keys, but rather where it would rank in dollar value.

Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid dollar value when applying relative value. It's one variable that's part of the equation. Think about what I wrote about the desirability of a given book and the market's reaction to it. The market doesn't determine, it reacts to. Seasoned collectors are the "class" of individuals who define what issues are significant. Forget the flippers and manipulators who move in and out of this hobby- the long term impact they have is superficial. 

I don't see Hulk 180 having any impact on where Hulk 181 will place among the hierarchy of the great SA keys. Now it would be a different story if Hulk 180 was similar to FF 48 and titled "The Coming of Wolverine." 

 

[NP_Gresham]

No matter where the Hulk #181 ranks amongst Silver, it is still behind the king of the Bronze age  - Star Wars #1 - 35 cent variant

 

[bronze johnny]

2 hours ago, NP_Gresham said:

No matter where the Hulk #181 ranks amongst Silver, it is still behind the king of the Bronze age  - Star Wars #1 - 35 cent variant

 

Star Wars 1 35 cent variant is not a mainstream comic book. It's the most valuable Bronze Age book and that value is exclusive to its relative scarcity. I wouldn't compare it to Hulk 181 and Giant-Size X-Men 1. 

Interestingly, SW1 35 cent variant would probably decline in value if there were a similar number of copies as Incredible Hulk 1. 

Cool book nevertheless!

Edited March 5, 2019 by bronze johnny

[NP_Gresham]

2 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

 It's the most valuable Bronze Age book and that value is exclusive to its relative scarcity.

False.

Value is ALWAYS 2 elements of scarcity AND demand.

There are plenty of scarce collectibles that no one gives a krap about.

[bronze johnny]

59 minutes ago, NP_Gresham said:

False.

Value is ALWAYS 2 elements of scarcity AND demand.

There are plenty of scarce collectibles that no one gives a krap about.

You seriously think the 35 cent variant would be as valuable if they printed even half as many copies as the 30 cent version?

The price variant collectors do not represent the majority of comic book collectors. So if you want to compare it to a mainstream BA key like Hulk 181, that's your prerogative. 

Btw- what's the need for upper casing your point? I get your position.

[carefulsum]

11 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

The market determines what is more valuable. The market determines what is more desirable. But the market has no say on what is a first appearance. That is determined by the content. I'm not trying to knock down Hulk 181. I'm simply pointing out that the fact that 181 is not Wolverine's first appearance is going to have a negative impact on where the book would fall amongst keys in the hypothetical situation you're proposing. If a one-page (it may be one panel, but it's a full-page panel) appearance was irrelevant, then Hulk 180 would be no more valuable that the other common issues in that run of Hulk.

 

 

 

A cameo/ brief appearance will NEVER be as important or valuable than a first FULL appearance of a important character.  Another example would be Amazing Spiderman 299 vs 300.

Venom has a FULL page just for his official introduction but #300 will always be much more valuable and sought after. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by carefulsum

[bronze johnny]

6 minutes ago, carefulsum said:

A cameo/ brief appearance will NEVER be as important or valuable than a first FULL appearance of a important character.  Another example would be Amazing Spiderman 299 vs 300.

Venom has a FULL page just for his official introduction but #300 will always be much more valuable and sought after. 

Agree with you 100%. You're responding to something I didn't write.

[carefulsum]

2 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Agree with you 100%. You're responding to something I didn't write.

My bad, I was quoting GeeksAreMyPeeps post.