Dear Bronze Age Collector: Where would Hulk 181 place among the top Silver Age keys? 0

[bronze johnny]

11 minutes ago, carefulsum said:

My bad, I was quoting GeeksAreMyPeeps post. 

Lol - I've done that before.

[kimik]

51 minutes ago, carefulsum said:

A cameo/ brief appearance will NEVER be as important or valuable than a first FULL appearance of a important character.  Another example would be Amazing Spiderman 299 vs 300.

Venom has a FULL page just for his official introduction but #300 will always be much more valuable and sought after. 

Not always. Here is tiny cameo that is still considered by the market to be the 1st appearance of Darkseid and sells for multiples of his first full appearance in Forever People #1.

[carefulsum]

7 minutes ago, kimik said:

Not always. Here is tiny cameo that is still considered by the market to be the 1st appearance of Darkseid and sells for multiples of his first full appearance in Forever People #1.

The price difference may also be attributed to the fact that Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen #134 is overall more rare vs Forever People's #1 according to CGC census. 

However, this is the opposite for Hulk 180 vs Hulk 181 with CGC census of around 3k vs 11k total graded respectively.

[Old_Man_Adam]

Look at FF48 , still more valued than FF49 and both covers are just as iconic 

[Black_Adam]

Where would the appropriate place be for Hulk 181 in the hierarchy of Marvel Silver Age keys? 

#22 - ahead of Amazing Spider-Man #14 but behind Sgt. Fury #1

[divad]

On 2/28/2019 at 9:11 PM, ThothAmon said:

It’s a great iconic book and someday will be worth more than its weight in gold. 

Isn't it already? It doesn't weigh that much.

[divad]

7 hours ago, kimik said:

Not always. Here is tiny cameo that is still considered by the market to be the 1st appearance of Darkseid and sells for multiples of his first full appearance in Forever People #1.

And this is Just. Plain. Stoopid.

 

[waaaghboss]

On 3/5/2019 at 1:12 AM, NP_Gresham said:

No matter where the Hulk #181 ranks amongst Silver, it is still behind the king of the Bronze age  - Star Wars #1 - 35 cent variant

 

How do you figure?  A book which is valued largely by pure scarcity is hardly on the level of one of the most iconic and sought after books of the era.  

[jason4]

If hulk 181 was created in 1962 it would probably be number 1. Maybe 2 behind only Spider-Man. 

[Roger66]

I would hazard to guess if you sampled enough solid comic book collectors Wolverine would be on average a top 10 favorite character if not close to a top 5 thus IF Wolverine appeared in the Silver Age it would IMO be an easy top 10 SA key by value for sure.  However I would assume as result of it being a Silver Age Key in your hypothetical it would thus have less on the census, clearly less in higher-grades too and keeping with how iconic and classic Hulk 181's cover is - I would assume if it had the same iconic looking cover and say for an example it was the cover of a late 60's issue of Tales To Astonish, which usually had Hulk on the front cover - than it could conceivably be considered between 5 and 10 in a most valuable Silver Age key...  but only after AF15, Showcase 4, Hulk 1, TOS39, FF1 and maybe JIM83 IMO...    

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 3/5/2019 at 11:19 AM, carefulsum said:

My bad, I was quoting GeeksAreMyPeeps post. 

I wasn't making a case that Hulk 180 should be more valuable that 181. I was indicating that the prior appearance by Wolverine might mean it wouldn't rank as high in a list of keys if we were comparing to Silver Age keys.

[ComicConnoisseur]

On 2/28/2019 at 9:10 PM, bronze johnny said:

Hulk 181 is the iconic Bronze Age key- the AF 15 of the Bronze Age. In the tradition of a great Bronze Age Marvel series that asked hypothetical questions beginning with Spider-Man joining the Fantastic Four, What if Hulk 181 was a "Silver Age" book? A "Silver Age" book defined in terms of relative scarcity to the great Marvel Silver Age keys: AF 15, which is more available than the other '62 keys- Hulk 1 and JIM 83. 

I placed this thread in the Bronze Age forum to primarily get the BA collector's perspective on where Hulk 181 would place among Marvel's greatest keys of the Silver Age. Circling back to relative scarcity and imagine Hulk 181 having a census of graded books similar to a '62 or even '63 Marvel Silver Age key. Where would the appropriate place be for Hulk 181 in the hierarchy of Marvel Silver Age keys? 

1) AF 15

3) Hulk 1

4) FF 1

It's clear that AF 15 is at the top of Marvel's SA hierarchy, followed by Hulk 1, and FF 1. Going to leave the remaining keys off the list since there will be disagreement as to where JIM 83 ranks v. ASM etc. That said, it doesn't exclude comparisons between these great keys and Hulk 181 (but does pre-empt any discussions about whether one SA key places higher than another- that's for a thread in the Silver Age Forum).

What if...

-john 

 

 

 

At least 3 because I suspect more people rather have Hulk #181 than FF#1 now.

Have times changed!

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

If we are going to use a Sportscard analogy more people rather have a Tom Brady rookie card now that a Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr rookie card.

To mainstream Wolverine is a hot relevant modern commodity like Tom Brady, while the FF are kind of like Unitas and Starr,as once great but becoming forgotten to the average person on the street.

So yeah is Hulk#181 more desired now than FF#1 with the majority of collectors?

Edited March 16, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

5 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

If we are going to use a Sportscard analogy more people rather have a Tom Brady rookie card now that a Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr rookie card.

To mainstream Wolverine is a hot relevant modern commodity like Tom Brady, while the FF are kind of like Unitas and Star,as once great but becoming forgotten to the average person on the street.

So yeah is Hulk#181 more desired now than FF#1 with the majority of collectors?

The problem with this analogy is that all athletes have a shelf life, so in 20 years Tom Brady may be lumped in with Starr and Unitas, while someone you're not even aware of now will be hot. Fictional characters don't have that drawback. I expect that with the X-Men and FF rights back at Disney, Marvel would find a way to do a decent Fantastic Four reboot that could make them bounce back. I think Avengers will stay the central focus for Marvel going forward, but there's lots of room for a resurgence of X-Men and FF. I think revisiting Silver Age keys in a few years could see X-men 1 close to the top.

[JTLarsen]

On 3/5/2019 at 11:05 AM, carefulsum said:

A cameo/ brief appearance will NEVER be as important or valuable than a first FULL appearance of a important character. 

Darkseid on line 2.

[ComicConnoisseur]

8 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

The problem with this analogy is that all athletes have a shelf life, so in 20 years Tom Brady may be lumped in with Starr and Unitas, while someone you're not even aware of now will be hot. Fictional characters don't have that drawback. I expect that with the X-Men and FF rights back at Disney, Marvel would find a way to do a decent Fantastic Four reboot that could make them bounce back. I think Avengers will stay the central focus for Marvel going forward, but there's lots of room for a resurgence of X-Men and FF. I think revisiting Silver Age keys in a few years could see X-men 1 close to the top.

But do you think modern audiences would still find FF more cooler than Wolverine even with Disney updating them?

Did Ant-Man done by Disney ever get cooler than Spider-Man?

Some characters just don't translate with modern audiences.

So I suspect Hulk#181 will be more sought after than FF#1 going forward.

Hulk #181 is starting to get close to what AF#15 did.

There was a time many people ignored AF#15 for many golden age comics, now the story is diiferent.

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur

[ComicConnoisseur]

8 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I think revisiting Silver Age keys in a few years could see X-men 1 close to the top.

This we agree with. 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

2 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

But do you think modern audiences would still find FF more cooler than Wolverine even with Disney updating them?

Did Ant-Man done by Disney ever get cooler than Spider-Man?

Some characters just don't translate with modern audiences.

So I suspect Hulk#181 will be more sought after than FF#1 going forward.

Hulk #181 is starting to get close to what AF#15 did.

There was a time many people ignored AF#15 for many golden age comics, now the story is diiferent.

 

I think things go in cycles, and we *could* get to the point where a family-based book is more popular. Not soon, but as a generational thing. I'm not saying that it will, but it's possible. Either way, FF will always be significant for kicking off the Marvel Universe. Hulk 181 may be on more wish lists, but I think FF1 will always be more valuable due to scarcity. 

[sfcityduck]

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Let's put it this way:

FF 1, AF 15, IH 1, TOS 39, JIM 83, Avengers 1, and X-Men 1, all featured the first internal and cover appearances of iconic characters or groups who would carry the SA.  All of these issues started their lengthy headlining series.

In contrast, IH 181 features the first cover appearance and second internal appearance of a character who played the villain role in that appearance, and who would not be seen again for another seven months, and when he did reappear was just one member of an ensemble cast.

In that sense, IH 181 has more similarities to Avengers 4 (not first appearance), FF 3 (not first appearance), and TTA 35 (not first appearance), with 180 being more like TTA 27 (first appearance, but not really) or Strange Tales 180 (not on cover).

Of course, undercutting the Avengers 4, TTA 35, and Strange Tales 110 comparison, Wolverine did not get his own solo series until after the Bronze Age was over.  Unlike Captain America and the Submariner, Wolverine essentially had no existence independent of being a member of the X-Men team throughout the Bronze Age.

So I don't think you can really make the comparison you're trying to make to the big key SA books.  They are apples and oranges.

You can, however, compare the popularity of the characters, and maybe that is all that matters.

[ComicConnoisseur]

On 3/14/2019 at 11:25 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

The problem with this analogy is that all athletes have a shelf life, so in 20 years Tom Brady may be lumped in with Starr and Unitas, while someone you're not even aware of now will be hot. Fictional characters don't have that drawback.

Also that is a great point. That`s why I always say going forward certain comic book characters and their keys might be the best bets in all the collectible fields because certain comic book characters don't age and keep reinventing themselves for new audiences.

Spider-Man is a prime example.

Two new huge hits that introduced millions of new fans to the character.

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur