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Dear Bronze Age Collector: Where would Hulk 181 place among the top Silver Age keys?
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85 posts in this topic

I admit that Hulk #181 is red-hot right now, but it's waay down the list compared to Silver Age keys (like SA keys compared to GA keys). It's just too common a comic, regardless of Wolverine's popularity. True, Hulk 181 is in high demand, but also in high supply whereas, say, JIM #83 or TOS #39 are high demand, but low supply. It's why I like collecting the pre-hero Atlas comics; it's the thrill of the hunt. They're hard to find in decent condition, even on eBay - much less your LCS.

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On 3/5/2019 at 12:16 PM, Old_Man_Adam said:

Look at FF48 , still more valued than FF49 and both covers are just as iconic 

Yeah, I still haven't figured that one out yet. Hulk #180 is Wolverine's first brief appearance, but it's #181 that everyone clamors to get, driving up the price. Similarly, the first brief appearance of Galactus/SS is FF#48, yet their first full appearance is in #49, yet it lags far behind #48 in price.

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3 hours ago, Getoutandstayout said:

Yeah, I still haven't figured that one out yet. Hulk #180 is Wolverine's first brief appearance, but it's #181 that everyone clamors to get, driving up the price. Similarly, the first brief appearance of Galactus/SS is FF#48, yet their first full appearance is in #49, yet it lags far behind #48 in price.

FF48 is first full Silver Surfer and Cameo Galactus. 

FF49 is first full Galactus and first Silver Surfer cover  

It is not the same as Hulk 180/181 - a better comparison is likely ASM 299 and 300 for Venom  

 

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On 3/14/2019 at 5:33 PM, ComicConnoisseur said:

At least 3 because I suspect more people rather have Hulk #181 than FF#1 now.

Have times changed!

:ohnoez:

 

No doubt, despite attempts to minimize Hulk 181 with what I call the "but for Hulk 180 panel = diminished role of Hulk 181" argument. Additionally, we see arguments about "how the X-Men made Wolverine" without any consideration for the mutualistic relationship each had for another and the nature of the Bronze Age key comic book and how it differed from the earlier path taken from what happened at the beginnings of the Marvel Silver Age. We then see the position concerning how Hulk 181 cannot be compared to the early Marvel SA keys because it's not Wolverine's "first" appearance, which is nothing but another attempt to reduce 181's place in the history of the Bronze Age and the American Comic Book. Still, there are some who focus on the length of time it took for Wolverine's second appearance in GS X-Men 1 as if this raises doubt on Hulk 181? How does this argument play 45 years later? These are immaterial arguments since Wolverine is the only character among those reaching the level of icon status to grow and develop as part of a superhero team. Wolverine is amazingly, the Bronze Age irony - the anti-hero who was part of a team that depended on him. That team was of course, a group of Marvel's "strangest superheroes" who differed from the classic Marvel superhero. Which takes me back to my original question and how I want to emphasize the only way Hulk 181 can be compared in any way to the great Marvel SA keys. The comparison exclusively depends on Hulk 181 having an imaginative relative scarcity to AF 15, Hulk 1, TOS 39, JIM 83, X-Men 1, FF 1, Avengers 1, DD 1, ST 110, & TTA 27. History as defined by comic book collectors and historians of the hobby (not speculators and "fly by nighters") have determined Hulk 181's place. There are very few comic books that give rise to an icon: Action Comics 1, Detective Comics 27, Amazing Fantasy 15, and Hulk 181 are the "iconikeys." They are the greatest books of their respective ages. It is the special status of these books that gives rise to the "what if?" questions when comparing the best of one generation to that of another or where might one place in comparison to others. Such questions often arise in the worlds of sports when fans ask what if Joe Louis had fought Jack Dempsey or what if Satchel Paige had pitched regularly against Babe Ruth? Sure, there are many distinctions and there are always those who will argue "apples and oranges." That's what makes this fun.

On a side note, I'm not a big Wolverine fan (prefer the classic Marvel Superheroes) but see how popular this icon is and what he means to Marvel Comics and the history of the American Comic Book.

-john

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Basically it comes to this...Most popular and important Marvel character = Spiderman so get AF15. (Silver Grail)

Second slot goes to.....Wolverine nuff said. So get IH181. (Bronze Grail)

So who cares how high it places hypothetically in Silver Age, Wolverine IS the second most popular and arguably second most important Marvel character of all time.

 

 

Edited by carefulsum
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On 3/16/2019 at 6:23 PM, Chillax23 said:

FF48 is first full Silver Surfer and Cameo Galactus. 

FF49 is first full Galactus and first Silver Surfer cover  

It is not the same as Hulk 180/181 - a better comparison is likely ASM 299 and 300 for Venom  

 

None of those are close comparisons.

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On 3/24/2019 at 12:52 PM, carefulsum said:

Basically it comes to this...Most popular and important Marvel character = Spiderman so get AF15. (Silver Grail)

Second slot goes to.....Wolverine nuff said. So get IH181. (Bronze Grail)

So who cares how high it places hypothetically in Silver Age, Wolverine IS the second most popular and arguably second most important Marvel character of all time.

 

 

For ROI purposes, it probably helps more to consider who the *next* super popular character is likely to be, and focus on that. AF15 and IH181 are blue chips, no doubt, but higher returns could probably be had elsewhere, if you have a high threshold for risk.

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1 hour ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

For ROI purposes, it probably helps more to consider who the *next* super popular character is likely to be, and focus on that. AF15 and IH181 are blue chips, no doubt, but higher returns could probably be had elsewhere, if you have a high threshold for risk.

Since the most popular Silver and Bronze characters have already been established, I'm going to bank on either HQ or DP for the copper age. Any other contenders? Spawn...maybe?

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On 3/24/2019 at 12:52 PM, carefulsum said:

Basically it comes to this...Most popular and important Marvel character = Spiderman so get AF15. (Silver Grail)

Second slot goes to.....Wolverine nuff said. So get IH181. (Bronze Grail)

So who cares how high it places hypothetically in Silver Age, Wolverine IS the second most popular and arguably second most important Marvel character of all time.

 

 

If Spider-Man is number one, I'm not sure Wolverine is the second most popular superhero character. He's probably just as popular if not more popular than Spider-Man and from what I've seen with the kids- his popularity is growing more than Spidey's. As far as importance, Wolverine and the Mutant Age of Comics exceeds anything that Spider-Man has ever done. Spider-Man is the sentimental favorite- especially for me personally.

Edited by bronze johnny
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Hulk 181 Wolverine appearance would rank right up there with issues of Spider-Man 129 1st Punisher. Beyond that I have a tough time comparing.   Maybe if you say he is the future antagonist to hulk and everyone that Dr. Doom was to the FF in their glory.   Doom got his own one shot and it didn’t go vertical like Hulk 181

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7 hours ago, Comicdey said:

Hulk 181 Wolverine appearance would rank right up there with issues of Spider-Man 129 1st Punisher. Beyond that I have a tough time comparing.   Maybe if you say he is the future antagonist to hulk and everyone that Dr. Doom was to the FF in their glory.   Doom got his own one shot and it didn’t go vertical like Hulk 181

H181 is in a different league than ASM129. I wouldn't say that's a fair comparison either just based on Wolverine's popularity alone, which easily surpasses the Punisher's.

It's a tempting comparison to make though, because they're both anti-heros.

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15 minutes ago, Darkowl said:

H181 is in a different league than ASM129. I wouldn't say that's a fair comparison either just based on Wolverine's popularity alone, which easily surpasses the Punisher's.

It's a tempting comparison to make though, because they're both anti-heros.

I compare those two as bronze key origins that I bought off the stands and before they were worth anything, I knew they were cooler than most other books.  Iron man 55 also falls in that catagory along with a handful more that haven’t spiked Insanely.   Well strike that for a few as some have more recently.

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On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 6:12 PM, Bird said:

At a show this weekend a dealer was talking about NM98 and saying that it was the IH181 of its' era. What do the SA dealers say...IH181 is the "xxx" of its era? I want to know the answer to this as well!

Without reading everyone else's opinions (so far)... This statement makes me cringe, lol... Probably in the same way people say IH181 is the AF15 of its era makes silver enthusiasts cringe.  There's a ton of copper/modern books I'd rather have over a NM 98 (ASM 300, TMNT 1, BA 12, to name a few).  NM 98 was nothing, and would continue to be nothing w/o the movies.

As for the original posted question...... IF IH 181 had a similar census and age as other silver age grails... I think it would come after AF 15 and IH 1, but before FF1.  My reasoning... AF15 is the flagship of marvel, there's not comparison.  You can't have a 181 w/o first introducing the hulk, so it goes after that.  But as the anti-hero, "the bad good guy", it has a place of its own over the goody-too-shoo hero genre that is the FF and other following books.

Anyways just my thought process... but in reality it will never compare to those silver age grails, just like they will never compare to TEC 27 or Action 1, there's just too many copies of all grades available. 

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On 4/1/2019 at 2:01 PM, lowgradecomics said:

Without reading everyone else's opinions (so far)... This statement makes me cringe, lol... Probably in the same way people say IH181 is the AF15 of its era makes silver enthusiasts cringe.  There's a ton of copper/modern books I'd rather have over a NM 98 (ASM 300, TMNT 1, BA 12, to name a few).  NM 98 was nothing, and would continue to be nothing w/o the movies.

As for the original posted question...... IF IH 181 had a similar census and age as other silver age grails... I think it would come after AF 15 and IH 1, but before FF1.  My reasoning... AF15 is the flagship of marvel, there's not comparison.  You can't have a 181 w/o first introducing the hulk, so it goes after that.  But as the anti-hero, "the bad good guy", it has a place of its own over the goody-too-shoo hero genre that is the FF and other following books.

Anyways just my thought process... but in reality it will never compare to those silver age grails, just like they will never compare to TEC 27 or Action 1, there's just too many copies of all grades available. 

This is now dated (mid-2015), but you mentioned "if IH 181 had a similar census and age"... so one solution is to multiply the value by the supply (census) and get a measure of demand.

Here's how it looked in mid-2015 using the average grade and the market price for that average grade, multiplied by the census:

marketcap_201506.png

Your guess of "after AF15 and IH1, but before FF1" is exactly what this method showed.

 

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On 4/1/2019 at 1:01 PM, lowgradecomics said:

Without reading everyone else's opinions (so far)... This statement makes me cringe, lol... Probably in the same way people say IH181 is the AF15 of its era makes silver enthusiasts cringe.  There's a ton of copper/modern books I'd rather have over a NM 98 (ASM 300, TMNT 1, BA 12, to name a few).  NM 98 was nothing, and would continue to be nothing w/o the movies.

 

It's funny how people discredit or shame the value of a comic book (or character's popularity) that's dependent upon a movie, which served as its catalyst. As if movies aren't a valid or noteworthy enough reason to boost and maintain a character's popularity or importance? Please.

Besides, your statement about NM98 isn't true at all. Just take a look at the GPA data.

Edited by Darkowl
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1 hour ago, Darkowl said:

It's funny how people discredit or shame the value of a comic book (or character's popularity) that's dependent upon a movie, which served as its catalyst. As if movies aren't a valid or noteworthy enough reason to boost and maintain a character's popularity or importance? Please.

Besides, your statement about NM98 isn't true at all. Just take a look at the GPA data.

I did.. .and it held fairly steady until about 2015 when the movie was announced, then jumped considerably. I never shamed Deadpool, but there are PLENTY of far more meaningful/valuable copper/modern first appearances, so to say it's the Hulk 181 of it's age is a laughable statement to me, but that's just an opinion and everyone has one, so to each their own.  No need to get panties twisted.

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10 minutes ago, lowgradecomics said:

I did.. .and it held fairly steady until about 2015 

Held? No. It safely, yet significantly inclined for about 10 years, then it jumped considerably...which is exactly what "nothing" books do, right? meh

I don't have a problem with your opinion, or you liking other books far more than NM98, but just expect to be corrected around these parts when you disperse false information.

Edited by Darkowl
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2 minutes ago, Darkowl said:

Held? No. It safely, yet significantly inclined for about 10 years, then it jumped considerably, which is exactly what "nothing" books do, right? meh

I don't have a problem with you liking other books far more, but just expect to be corrected around these parts when you disperse false information.

Sounds like we are saying the same thing in the end.. I never said it didn't increase, I said it increased significantly when the movie was announced and has maintained because of the popularity of the movies.  so.. from what you just said, and based off what I said, I think we are in pretty close agreement  ;)  I apologize I called it a 'nothing book' that obviously offended, but again that's just my personal opinion.  It's still not the Hulk 181 of the copper/modern era tho lol, which was my only real point in this dialogue all along. 

Anyway, good hypothetical original post. Was a fun one to consider, and the back and fourth was fun, but in the end their all just opinions and shouldn't be taken to heart.

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4 minutes ago, lowgradecomics said:

Sounds like we are saying the same thing in the end.. I never said it didn't increase, I said it increased significantly when the movie was announced and has maintained because of the popularity of the movies.  so.. from what you just said, and based off what I said, I think we are in pretty close agreement  ;)  I apologize I called it a 'nothing book' that obviously offended, but again that's just my personal opinion.  It's still not the Hulk 181 of the copper/modern era tho lol, which was my only real point in this dialogue all along. 

Anyway, good hypothetical original post. Was a fun one to consider, and the back and fourth was fun, but in the end their all just opinions and shouldn't be taken to heart.

Meh, it's all good. I was probably being too hard on you. My apologies. Blame it on lack of sleep, a newborn, and my dog recently dying. I'll admit, I'm a bit stressed right now. :foryou:

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1 minute ago, Darkowl said:

Meh, it's all good. I was probably being too hard on you. My apologies. Blame it on lack of sleep, a newborn, and my dog recently dying. I'll admit, I'm a bit stressed right now. :foryou:

Oh no!  What kind of dog?  I have a 12 year old Samoyed I don't think will be around much longer, can't stand the thought!  My condolences!  

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