The current state of the comic book market 0

[dupont2005]

6 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Think of all the things a 20 year old buys now that he DIDN'T have to buy 30 years ago when he could get still get 10 comics + tax for $10 (as long as there were a few DC's in there):

cell phone bill - $40 to $200 a month

home wifi/internet - $40-$50 a month

Hulu TV - now $45 a month

Netflix - $8 a month

Amazon Prime - $5 a month ($60 a year) to get Prime

XBox Live or Playstation Online - $10 to $60 a month

Spotify - $9.99 a month

and that doesn't include game purchases, online downloadable content, cell phone games, apps, etc.

 

Would you give up all of THAT to buy $200 worth of TODAY's comics per month?

I don’t even have all that stuff right now

[exitmusicblue]

On 3/2/2019 at 3:49 PM, justafan said:

I read and agree with everything mentioned in the article especially about the variants and new titles/reboots/one-shots.  However, I do not see the publishers or diamond agreeing to several of the key fixes that the speaker presents and that is where we will begin to see a breakdown in the medium.  As of right now, much of Marvel's sales and comic revenue tends to come from reboot/new titles and the 10+ variants they spawn and the control they wield over the distribution and ordering.  Eliminate that and things could get ugly for them.  They are basically doing all they can at this point to keep sales up. How long do you think Disney will keep the division open if it begins to be a draw on their bottom line?  If they were to get rid of the reboots/new titles/variants/incentives and lose the completists/speculators/investors/flippers, they would have to jack up the cover price on every comic to $15-25 to make the same revenue on a smaller market's print run.  This will further isolate the market's demographic to older men.  Can you imagine paying $20 for a 32 page comic every month simply because Marvel is only selling 10k issues of that title? Neither model is sustainable as those older men will eventually retire and die out. Would the reverse be true?  If they slashed prices back to $2/issue, used cheaper paper, lower cost coloring, cut rate art and stories (can't be much worse) would that draw in the younger readers and sell more comics?

Face it, the variant market is practically subsidizing the reader market.  Do you really think collectors that are buying 5+ variants of a title are actually sitting down and re-reading the same story 5 times each with a different cover each time? Maybe, but what they just did was pay 5x or more to read the same comic if they even read it at all.  So what's the difference in paying 5x the cover price for a no-variant title?  The hope/speculation that just one of those variant cover's value will be worth more in the future and the art is better, the secondary flipper market that buys out all the artificially low print run copies in 2 minutes and resells them on ebay for a profit, or just trying to squeeze another $4 from the completists.  But is Marvel even analyzing the data to identify which artist and covers are more popular?  Wouldn't it be better to produce just 1 really awesome cover a month with amazing art from the hot artist and simply charge more for that issue?  And wouldn't it be even better if the story in that issue was 5x better than the average dribble being pumped out?  Would that be worth paying $20/issue for?

The other problem with the direct market that lags behind other industries is the availability of big data on customer demographics.  Not sure if every Diamond customer has to report in the age, sex, ethnicity of all their customers but that is a huge source of market info the publishers are unable to take advantage of.  Last I checked, kids are not the primary or even secondary customer of comics.  Maybe it's just my area but I've only ever seen adults and older teens buying new modern comics in the LCS near me and it's mostly men.  The occassional women that do enter, most are picking up their husband's monthly pulls or buying Pops toys.  Most of the men I see shopping are not in the favored demographic of 18-24 year olds.  They are usually men 35-40 or older.

I think this article is more of an obituary.  I disagree with the optimism of the speaker's concluding remarks but I hope he is right and I am wrong.  The LCS B&M stores will be the canaries in the coal mine. 

 

On 3/2/2019 at 6:00 PM, bc said:

As another kid around that time frame, you have some very valid points. I just don't see the new generation collecting anything of significant physical bulk like comics. There are some rare exceptions, but it's more about portability for the younger generations, hence the potential for digital readership to expand if priced properly and delivered in a quality format.

I once posted supporting lowering the paper quality and maybe even doing b&w reprints to further reduce the cost to expand the customer base. But I now think that won't fly because the quality expectations of today's consumer base would not be met as we watch the decline of almost every printed media compared to the lowering cost of a bigger and bigger 4K TV. Plus the continuity of most titles & content is not conducive to attracting and maintaining new readers.

Once 5G becomes the standard for wireless communications and high-speed fiber to the house becomes more prevalent, will kids ever even look at a static image and word balloons again since an infinite library of video content will be delivered nearly instantaneously to the remote masses? The holders of the IP are being pushed by their shareholders to create content for the next generation of content distribution methods rather than the "old bus station newsstand" model.

There will always be people with the resources and demand to reclaim the glory of their childhood possessions. But as each generation is weaned from the physical content delivery method, they will have less interest in spending their disposable income on things their parents and grandparents cherished which would doom it to become the next stamp collecting environment.

Hopefully,this ain't gonna happen for a long time and the IP owners, creators and distributors will address the potential of modern consumer habits with the plethora of quality content that is available from this medium.

-bc

 

 

Both extremely well laid-out and articulated posts.

I'm going to be the optimist and point to collectibles such as old letters written/signed by Napoleon, first edition books of legendary novelists, Art, and the like.  Which will always be desired regardless of digitalism.

Likewise, I think there always will be a place for certain comics.  Not every comic that's a key today, mind you. But a good number of titles have become just as embedded in our cultural history as Van Gogh's Starry Night, if not more omnipresent.  And consider the sheer number of artists and artwork through the ages that remain revered + collected to this day.

No matter how digital things get, there will forever be collectors paying top dollar for an original Warhol, or a first edition Great Gatsby.  Why should comics be any different?

Edited March 4, 2019 by exitmusicblue

[Prince Namor]

4 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

 

Both extremely well laid-out and articulated posts.

I'm going to be the optimist and point to collectibles such as old letters written/signed by Napoleon, first edition books of legendary novelists, Art, and the like.  Which will always be desired regardless of digitalism.

Likewise, I think there always will be a place for certain comics.  Not every comic that's a key today, mind you. But a good number of titles have become just as embedded in our cultural history as Van Gogh's Starry Night, if not more omnipresent.  And consider the sheer number of artists and artwork through the ages that remain revered + collected to this day.

No matter how digital things get, there will forever be collectors paying top dollar for an original Warhol, or a first edition Great Gatsby.  Why should comics be any different?

Two different things.

Selling an AF #15, Batman #1 and Action #1 at a huge auction is great business for the person that owns them, and makes for a great news story - but it's not the same thing as a publisher selling books every week of the year around the world. Secondary market could last past generations - it's the current market that we're worried about.

[WolverineX]

On 3/2/2019 at 11:57 PM, dupont2005 said:

The market for print will exist as long as us collectors are alive so it’s not as if they need to stop making monthly floppies, but the younger generation for the most part isn’t going to be interested in that. To expand the market they have to convince those kids to download Comixology

or make comics 1 dollar and omnipresent so kids  can afford it.  

[Ride the Tiger]

I think you could drop the price of comics to .50 cents and few kids would even know. Not sure whatg percentage of todays youth has even been to a comic shop. They are more into Roblox. YouTube. Minecraft. YouTube. TikTok. YouTube. Snapchat and any other social media thingy that they find on their electronic devices.

[bc]

3 minutes ago, Ride the Tiger said:

I think you could drop the price of comics to .50 cents and few kids would even know. Not sure whatg percentage of todays youth has even been to a comic shop. They are more into Roblox. YouTube. Minecraft. YouTube. TikTok. YouTube. Snapchat and any other social media thingy that they find on their electronic devices.

That in itself is a big part of the issue - kids have to go to an LCS to even see comic books. In the 70's and even 80's, comics were in every 7-11, gas station, grocery store and so many more outlets. You didn't have to take a separate trip to buy comics, there were already were you (and the parents) were shopping.

They could give away new comics for free and probably not increase the readership base substantially. The lack of availability certainly is creating as much of the problem as the other reasons posted in the OPs article.

[1Cool]

54 minutes ago, bc said:

That in itself is a big part of the issue - kids have to go to an LCS to even see comic books. In the 70's and even 80's, comics were in every 7-11, gas station, grocery store and so many more outlets. You didn't have to take a separate trip to buy comics, there were already were you (and the parents) were shopping.

They could give away new comics for free and probably not increase the readership base substantially. The lack of availability certainly is creating as much of the problem as the other reasons posted in the OPs article.

That is a great reason for the eventual demise of comic books but right now we should be in a hayday of new comics and books being bought by 35 - 55 year olds.  But why where comics originally produced?  They were produced so kids could have something to read while the adults read novels or were busy working.  Now we produce adult themed comic books that are sold to middle aged men and wonder why there may be a disconnect with the buying public.  Comics like Saga and Walking Dead seem to be thriving where as the endless stream of good guy vers bad guy books dwindle in copies being sold.  Prices are too high and kids are not buying but you really have to question who current comics are being produced for when you factor out the middle age guys who buy for old time sake.

Edited March 4, 2019 by 1Cool

[bc]

8 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

That is a great reason for the eventual demise of comic books but right now we should be in a hayday of new comics and books being bought by 35 - 55 year olds.  But why where comics originally produced?  They were produced so kids could have something to read while the adults read novels or were busy working.  Now we produce adult themed comic books that are sold to middle aged men and wonder why there may be a disconnect with the buying public.  Comics like Saga and Walking Dead seem to be thriving where as the endless stream of good guy vers bad guide books dwindle in copies being sold.  Prices are too high and kids are not buying but you really have to question who current comics are being produced for when you factor out the middle age guys who buy for old time sake.

I'd rather see 8-14 year olds buying new comics than us geezer collectors

But you and Chuck both make vaild points - the adult collectors are supporting the current habits of the publishers and distributors which will not help expand the customer base.

[Aweandlorder]

Try and get your 14 year old away from Fortnite to read a comic book see how far that gets ya

[1Cool]

6 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

Try and get your 14 year old away from Fortnite to read a comic book see how far that gets ya

I give away comic books at Halloween and the kids seem to enjoy getting books along with the candy but I wonder how many actually read the comic when the candy buzz wears off.

[Callaway29]

I gave a few low-value back issue Thors to some of the neighbor kids playing in my yard one day (they were probably 10). It was an impulsive thought that they would enjoy them... It rained that night. The next day I found them laying on the sidewalk right near where I gave them to the kids...soaking wet. The covers probably got a 1/2 second glance, and then they were immediately left and forgotten. No more free comics for the neighborhood.

[Ride the Tiger]

One thing I learned is that you can't take what was cool to us as kids and introduce it to the current youth and expect it to make the same impression. I played Ferris Bueller's Day Off for my daughter's thinking they would enjoy it. Both lost interest within 20 minutes and stopped watching. I give up trying to share my childhood with them. They just aren't interested.

[Broke as a Joke]

A big problem with kids is they hate to take the time to read.  Ipads, cell phones and video games are constantly streaming information that doesn't have to be read.  Comic books can't compete for their attention anymore.  It's our own fault.

[Old_Man_Adam]

I think the bigger issue is the lack of an attention span - I still prefer to watch movies on blu Ray because I detest commercials , I think the younger generation is so accustomed to being distracted they can’t pay attention for more than 10 minutes without impulsively picking up their phone ( not that I don’t either )

Edited March 4, 2019 by Old_Man_Adam
Misspell

[justafan]

6 minutes ago, bc said:

I'd rather see 8-14 year olds buying new comics than us geezer collectors

But you and Chuck both make vaild points - the adult collectors are supporting the current habits of the publishers and distributors which will not help expand the customer base.

To be perfectly honest, I think comics as a printed medium have lost the younger generation and I just don't see digital doing it for them.  Out of sight out of mind is one possible excuse (i.e. death of the Newsstand sales) but my kids who see me with comics all the time only ever ask for a comic on the rare occasions I happen to take them with me to the comic shop and only after I say no to buying action figures and toys.  And then they promptly forget about the comics they picked out as soon as they get home due to all the other distractions and options kids now have at their disposal.  It's been 2 weeks and they still haven't recalled that I bought them 2 comics.  If a kid has a tablet and is given 1 hour a day (I know it's way more for some) to play on their tablet which do you think they are going to spend their time with: minecraft/youtube/fortnite/games that was either free or only cost them a one-time price of $3.99 or read a digital comic they either have to pay $1.99 for each or a monthly subscription that costs more than a popular game download. 

The only way I see comics overriding games and youtube on tablet time is if the comic stories are like Dogman and Captain Underpants books (my kids love and devour those books) or if the Department of Education partners with the publishers and promoted comics and enforce STEM based educational stories in them to get them into tablet time as mandatory educational reading exercises.

I almost see printed comics like vinyl records or even CDs.  Only audiophiles and purists who care about the quality of the sound and have the money will pay the money for media but the vast majority including the youth are simply content with digital files on their phones and tablets.

I see digital comics like digital copies of the NY Times and Washington post.  If I'm not going to buy a subscription to those newspapers (even to do the crossword puzzle and get the coupons) why would I pay for an online subscription to their newspaper when I can get all my news in syndicated form up to the second and in video from a bunch of other news apps or sites? 

 

[Ride the Tiger]

How about a comic called Captain U Toob? Who seeks out bad videos and destroys them. Gotta be sumthin they can relate to.  

[Mr Sneeze]

i think you have to go back to the nineties for a market that was at least equally propped up by readership. 

[WolverineX]

3 hours ago, Aweandlorder said:

Try and get your 14 year old away from Fortnite to read a comic book see how far that gets ya

Honestly we would not be reading comic books either if we had YouTube to distract us when we were kids

[WolverineX]

2 hours ago, Old_Man_Adam said:

I think the bigger issue is the lack of an attention span - I still prefer to watch movies on blu Ray because I detest commercials , I think the younger generation is so accustomed to being distracted they can’t pay attention for more than 10 minutes without impulsively picking up their phone ( not that I don’t either )

You can thank the media for that. I feel like all television and commercials are made for people with ADHD. Watching the last Lego Movie gave me a headache because the scene shifts last like 2 seconds. I could barely even process before another scene showed up. They just bombard you

[thehumantorch]

On 3/1/2019 at 12:05 PM, 1Cool said:

But comics as a whole should still be in its hayday since there is a couple generations who grew up on comics and are now reaching middle age and have some cash to buy stuff they use to enjoy.  But comic sales numbers seem to be dropping year after year and the only thing propping them up is people chasing variants (the article mentions almost half of all products are variants).  If comics were reasonably priced and produced to keep their core buyers happy (middle aged men primarily) wouldn't you think comics would be one of the success stories in the sea of change?

Sorry, not a chance.  Paper has been dying for years and that trend will not change and comics are not immune.  How many people still read newspapers, send piles of Christmas cards, curl up with a good book, get real mail in their snailmail box, subscribe to Time or People magazine? 

I'd be surprised if Marvel and DC were still publishing comics in their current form 5 years from now.  The reboots, variants, and hoard of marginal titles are all an attempt by the publishers to suck out as much money as possible from their remaining customers.