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Who Was the First Great Comic Collector?
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87 posts in this topic

On 3/5/2019 at 12:58 PM, sfcityduck said:

Please don't take this post as arguing against Overstreet's influence.  He's on my Mount Rushmore of Comic Collectors.  But, the assertion that Bob was "the first great collector of the greatest period of comic collecting" is something I cannot agree with.  That assertion ignores the events of the 1960s and the people Bob would probably acknowledge as more deserving of that title.  

There were several comic book price guides before Bob's.  Bob's was better, but it was not first.  The articles in the guide are nice, but they are just a small portion of the library of articles on comics and comic collecting generated since 1960.

Bob, who is the first to acknowledge this, also benefited tremendously from the extensive notes provided to him by Jerry Bails, who had begun drafting his own price guide before handing off his notes to Overstreet.  Long prior to Overstreet's first Price Guide in 1970, Jerry Bails had already published "Alter Ego" (1961) with Roy Thomas which was arguably the first great comic fanzine, published "Comicollector" (1961) which was the first comic buying and selling adzine (it later merged with the Rocket's Blast and became the RBCC), published "On the Drawing Board" (1961) which was a comic news zine publicising upcoming comics and identifying their creators which was the forerunner to the "Comic Reader," founded the Academy of Comic-Book Fans and Collectors (1962) which was the first great society of comic collectors, created the Alley Awards (1962) which was the first comic awards, hosted some of the earliest comic conventions (1964), published CAPA-APA (1964) which was the first comic APA, and published extensive indexes of Golden Age comics such as the Collector’s Guide to the First Heroic Age which were relied upon Bob for the non-price info in his guide.  

Jerry Bails, in my opinion, is also someone I would put on my Mount Rushmore of Comic Collectors and I think he's more important than Bob, something I think Bob would probably agree with.  There is a reason that Jerry Bails is called the "Father of Comic Fandom."    

Even so, I don't think Jerry Bails was the "First Great Comic Collector."  And Bob, while he is a contender for the pantheon of greatest comic collectors ever (and IMHO on Mt. Rushmore), is not even close to the conversation for "First Great Comic Collector" because so many others were doing important things before him in the 1960s.

I love your Mt. Rushmore! Also tremendously respect your position- especially regarding Jerry Bails. Was asking myself how could I be arguing against Jerry Bails. Jerry Bails will long be forgotten outside of the small circles some of us around here are a part of. There's no question Bails had a tremendous impact on collecting before the Overstreet Price Guide. Yes, there were price guides before Overstreet but nothing comparable to the legacy of Bob's creation- a creation that took comic book collectors and collecting to a new level. The 1st Edition of the OSPG had two printings and started an unprecedented run that has never been matched by anything in comic book collecting outside of the comic books. Agree with you on Bails and his role in creating fandom but collecting comic books- especially for those who were captured by the comic book after 1970- the changes in the process of collecting comic books changed with the advent of a regularly updated price guide for reasons I will now explain.

We have had a guide that gives collectors unprecedented structure and consistency in collecting. This wasn't a guide that came out and left a collector wondering if there would be regular updated pricing. The practice of having a reliable source of pricing and information about comic books started with Bob's creation. He may have borrowed from others but that doesn't in any way diminish his creation. Bob was first and foremost, a collector who was interested in providing a tool for collectors and a view of a reliable and consistent comic book marketplace on a regular basis. There was an element of predictability for collectors- they could see the books they've collected over the year in the upcoming latest edition of the price guide. There was also an element of surprise when the price of Amazing Fantasy 15 jumped several dollars over the prior year's guide. Bob had the insight to provide collectors with something he wanted as a collector- something that had never existed before or parts of which may have served as a prototypical example of what he had in mind. The decades passed with editions growing old and articles providing collectors with insight into the glorious history of comic books, the characters, creators, companies, and even fandom. Sure, these articles weren't the all inclusive Wikipedia for comic book collectors and historians but they provided a starting point for many collectors who never knew when, for example, the Silver and Bronze Ages began or the history of EC Comics.

The collecting community finally had what it needed and ultimately wanted, a reference book that provided a standard for collectors to follow. The guide itself evolved into a historical window into collecting for collectors today who could open up an early edition of the guide and see the prices of Golden and Silver Age comic books during the early Bronze Age. Collectors could also look at the classic cover artwork done by the Golden Age great Will Eisner in '76 and the '81 cover drawn by the legendary precode artist, L.B. Cole. For many collectors, this was the first time they would see the great art of these legends. They'd open the book and see for the first time small photos of covers of books by Biro, Frazetta, and Jack Cole. This is what the first great comic book collector wanted for all comic book lovers. Bob Overstreet made it happen. His legacy will live on even after the 75th Edition of his Guide is one day published for future collectors and those of us who happen to hang on until then. 

Edited by bronze johnny
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16 hours ago, Jaylam said:

This is a little bit of a tangent to the topic, however I found this nice little tidbit about Forrest J Ackerman. He was truly one of the first great collectors and advocates of Science Fiction and related genres, of which we could arguably say comic books owe their origins to along with the “collecting” that followed them.

Photograph of "Morojo" (Myrtle R. Douglas) and Forrest J Ackerman in the "futuristicostumes" she designed and created, at Nycon 1 (the 1st World Science Fiction Convention} in 1939 in New York City. The origin of this photo is unknown to me; both subjects are long dead, and this photo is the best one I have as a fair-use picture of Morojo at a unique historical moment. This was the first instance of costuming at a science fiction convention, and is generally acknowledged to be the origin of what we now call cosplay.

FD7BBC87-1CE2-4324-B6E5-CC4D03AE124F.jpeg

Ackerman wasn't only a Sci-fi/horror fan and later, a mogul. He was a comic book fan and collector too. If you look at the guest lists and attendees of all the early comic book conventions of the 60s and 70s, his name usually appears on the list. He was there hobnobbing with Kirby, Stan, Bill Everett, etc., etc, adding pieces of theirs and many others to his collection.

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56 minutes ago, gunsmokin said:

Biljo White had a hell of an impressive collection if I remember correctly.

 

He's definitely one of the pioneering figures of comics fandom.  He bought a Batman 1 off the stands and kept his interest in comics, ultimately starting fanzines in the early 1960s.  He's one of the guys who created modern fandom, but there were guys who became more prominent earlier.

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18 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

Ackerman wasn't only a Sci-fi/horror fan and later, a mogul. He was a comic book fan and collector too. If you look at the guest lists and attendees of all the early comic book conventions of the 60s and 70s, his name usually appears on the list. He was there hobnobbing with Kirby, Stan, Bill Everett, etc., etc, adding pieces of theirs and many others to his collection.

If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend Julius Schwartz's book on the early days of Sci-fi fandom. It is fantastic.

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On 3/4/2019 at 1:38 PM, sfcityduck said:

Let's start with an important preface:  I'm not asking who compiled the oldest or biggest comic collection.  We all know Edgar Church started compiling comics in 1937, continuing that effort into the 1950s.  But, Edgar was a commercial artist who may well have been buying comics as reference material.  He is not known to have had any interactions with other comic book fans or to have ever been advocate of comics or comic book collecting.  He was unknown to the comic collecting community until 1977.  

No, I'm talking about folks like Lupoff and the Thompsons.  Folks who not only were buying and holding comics, but were also making important efforts to promote comics, comic collecting, and/or comic dealing.  My question is very focused: 

Who was the first great or prominent comic collector to have a significant impact on the activity?

My guess is that this person, at a minimum, was active prior to the "All in Color For a Dime" series was published in Xero in 1961.  It may well be one of the authors in that series. Or maybe an early collector dealer like Malcolm Willits or Len Brown.  

You tell me. 

I have my own theory, but  before finishing an article on the subject, I'm trying to learn what others think.   

 

 

I would disagree on Edgar, I think as Chucky mentioned in his story, all of Edgar's comics  were untouched and kept behind a padlocked door.  Personally I think he was the first real nerd.  :insane: These were his and no one can touch them.  On the other hand the other magazines he cut up and used those as reference pieces. 

From Chuck's description:

"At this point I need to draw an important distinction between Mr. Church's attitude toward his reference files, and his comics. The reference files were made up entirely of clippings and covers from line art magazines, and pulps. Mr. Church was ruthless with these magazines, chopping them into bits with gusto. The pieces he wanted to keep were then put into legal storage boxes shaped to look like books. These boxes had hinged lids that opened, and each was about 5 inches deep. Mr. Church had labeled each of his storage boxes, so he could quickly go to his bookshelf and easily pull down categories such as "Maxfield Parrish," "Dogs," or "Bridal." To this day, I have this vision of him sitting in his basement during the Great Depression, listening to old-time radio, and happily cutting up his magazines. My best estimate is that he filled about 300-400 boxes with clippings during his years of effort.

His comics (at least all the ones he purchased from 1938-1947), on the other hand, were in a room that had been padlocked for years. I think I eventually found one comic (out of 18,000) that had some notes in the margins. Other than that single book, he kept his comics in perfect condition. It was clear to me from the fact that the heirs had to break the padlock off of the closet that his children were never allowed to touch his comics. That, too, may have led to some antagonism on their part toward his comics collection. I think it's safe to surmise that Mr. Church viewed his comics as his own private passion, and wanted to share them with no one. Is it any wonder that his heirs didn't show any fondness for them?

An interesting sidebar to this story is that Mr. Church was apparently the first person in the history of comics to have his issues reserved for him! He had one copy of every comic printed put aside for him by his local newsstand starting with ACTION COMICS #1 (that book is even marked very lightly in pencil with his name!) in 1938. Prior to 1938 he purchased all his comics from a half-price magazine store. As near as I could tell, his comics subscriptions were active from 1938-1953, when he retired from Mountain Bell. He then purchased comics used for about another five years, before giving up entirely. It was based upon my inspection of those 1953-1958 used comics by which I made my original bid for the collection"

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I don’t really consider Church a “collector”. He rarely bought them second hand nor did he try to complete runs. He had no interaction with other comic book fans. He habitually bought everything the day it came out and stored them in the order in which he bought them. I doubt he gave any thought that anyone would actually collect them or that they would be worth anything. He might not have even read or looked at them. It was just a habit or compulsion for him. That being said, he inadvertently put together the best collections of comics ever found. (worship)

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I'm with the Robot Man on this one.  

Chuck's stories are all we got, but Church was dead before Chuck bought the comics and Chuck is making some speculations about how and why Church bought the comics.  Chuck also is known for his memory issues and, of course, he has a natural tendency (as we all do) to tell the story in a light favorable to him (there has been some controversy because he paid 10 cents a comic for the collection, a pittance even then, and the quotes you relate seemed designed in part to address that issue).  

Other folks have said that: "Much of the cut-up pulps and magazines were from the 1920s and 1930s."  That would predate Church's comic buying, and suggests that Church bought comics to replace earlier sources for reference material.  Of course, he'd have no need to cut up comics, as they are effectively all art, whereas magazines are mostly words and cutting them up made sense if all he wanted was the art.

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I suppose you're talking only about non-creators or non-contributors? hm  Clearly, the seminal dudes were all fans. :sumo: I bet Jerry Siegel had quite a collection.

 

Edited by divad
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8 hours ago, toro said:

I would disagree on Edgar, I think as Chucky mentioned in his story, all of Edgar's comics  were untouched and kept behind a padlocked door.  Personally I think he was the first real nerd.  :insane: These were his and no one can touch them.  On the other hand the other magazines he cut up and used those as reference pieces. 

From Chuck's description:

"At this point I need to draw an important distinction between Mr. Church's attitude toward his reference files, and his comics. The reference files were made up entirely of clippings and covers from line art magazines, and pulps. Mr. Church was ruthless with these magazines, chopping them into bits with gusto. The pieces he wanted to keep were then put into legal storage boxes shaped to look like books. These boxes had hinged lids that opened, and each was about 5 inches deep. Mr. Church had labeled each of his storage boxes, so he could quickly go to his bookshelf and easily pull down categories such as "Maxfield Parrish," "Dogs," or "Bridal." To this day, I have this vision of him sitting in his basement during the Great Depression, listening to old-time radio, and happily cutting up his magazines. My best estimate is that he filled about 300-400 boxes with clippings during his years of effort.

His comics (at least all the ones he purchased from 1938-1947), on the other hand, were in a room that had been padlocked for years. I think I eventually found one comic (out of 18,000) that had some notes in the margins. Other than that single book, he kept his comics in perfect condition. It was clear to me from the fact that the heirs had to break the padlock off of the closet that his children were never allowed to touch his comics. That, too, may have led to some antagonism on their part toward his comics collection. I think it's safe to surmise that Mr. Church viewed his comics as his own private passion, and wanted to share them with no one. Is it any wonder that his heirs didn't show any fondness for them?

An interesting sidebar to this story is that Mr. Church was apparently the first person in the history of comics to have his issues reserved for him! He had one copy of every comic printed put aside for him by his local newsstand starting with ACTION COMICS #1 (that book is even marked very lightly in pencil with his name!) in 1938. Prior to 1938 he purchased all his comics from a half-price magazine store. As near as I could tell, his comics subscriptions were active from 1938-1953, when he retired from Mountain Bell. He then purchased comics used for about another five years, before giving up entirely. It was based upon my inspection of those 1953-1958 used comics by which I made my original bid for the collection"

Thank you for posting this.  I’ve always felt that Edgar Church was the first comic collector due to his care for the condition of all those books.  As to whether or not he read and enjoyed comics like later fans we may never know.  But I don’t think we can make a firm assessment that he didn’t.  There are lots of people today that collect only slabbed ultra high grade books.  I don’t think anyone would discount them because they don’t read their comics.  They may not be “fans” like some others but they still collect comics.  

Just my thoughts.

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This is a great thread.  I only recognize a handful of the more prominent names listed do far.  

It would be even better if someone created a timeline when all these individuals were around.  This way we can get a real progression of the earliest collectors and their contributions to the hobby.   

Edited by NelsonAI
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Edgar Church was the first collector. I'm not sure how his profession impedes on any of it, because a collector can be defined very simply as someone who buys more than one comic just because he likes looking through it. Even if he can't read it, he can still enjoy the art. I remember buying a collection of comics that were all put in bound volumes and these volumes were bound in the 80's. I marveled at the continuity of these, some going back to the silver-age. The owner was a truck driver and told me he was only able to put together some of the runs because he'd travel for work so often, and every time he'd pull into a truck stop, he'd check for an issue he needed. To underestimate the dedication that was required for Church to assemble the collection he did is a huge mistake in any assessment or measurement used to determine what makes us collectors. I collect things that were never removed from their packaging. These were things that were meant to not only be removed from their packaging, but should have been handled and played with by kids. The same could be said about comics in terms of their functional and intended purpose which was disposable entertainment, and yet we have comics that look like they've never been touched much less read, sitting in slabs, that are coveted by collectors everywhere - do we refer to people that own such books as being any less a collector? Collecting them in this manner doesn't make me any less a collector. Even if Church collected them as reference material and for this purpose alone, you couldn't amass what he did without the requisite dedication to do it for as long and as consistently as he did.

Edited by comicwiz
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What makes this thread complicated is the OP's definition of a "great collector" as someone who was also, very early on, a prominent advocate for comics collecting and fandom in general.

Edgar Church clearly amassed, for his own reasons and at the very dawn of the Golden Age, a "great collection" -- easily the single most significant assemblage of comics in the history of the medium -- which almost by definition and by any objective standard makes him the "first great collector".  But he doesn't make the cut because he wasn't a proto-"fan" in a contemporary sense.

That second benchmark is the sticking point, and sets up a kind of false dilemma, I think.

Anyway...great thread.  I'm looking forward to the big reveal from the OP...

Edited by jools&jim
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