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UPDATED: My Nominee for the "First Great Comic Collector"
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359 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I'm thinking about casting my vote for Mitchell Mehdy before another shoe drops or Bob Beerbohm files a non-compete suit against sfcityduck.   :ohnoez:

xD  It would be interesting, though, to hear if Mitch either heard of or otherwise crossed paths with Dave.  Seems unlikely as Mitch is a west coast guy and Dave was apparently an east coast guy.

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It's commendable whenever someone brings to light any information or research that might otherwise have been lost to time, so for this fact alone, I appreciate what @sfcityduck has written here, particularly because it was very well presented. I do believe the historical aspects transcend any debate over who is deserving of being called the first great comic collector.

The checkpoints were thorough, and I would agree these are characteristics collectors could relate to as far as recognizing pioneering aspects that would benefit the growth of the hobby. I found myself checking off a lot of those myself, thinking, yeah this makes sense.

There is no doubt his letter arguing against SOTI/Wertham was impressive for a kid of that age. And as we followed his participation and contributions from that point onward, there is no question he was passionate about collecting comics.

Yet there is still an aspect to hobbying which I've always felt is equally important, and that's humility. Whether we can agree comic collecting is a hobby that happens mostly in isolation, and networking is very limited because we tend to be guarded about sharing and resort to goalkeeping to avoid being taken advantage of by greed, it's still an activity I feel people could make just as big an impact quietly and without fanfare. These were dark times, and for this reason, I am left wondering how many other people out there were checking off all these things at near or even an earlier point, but just were going about it using unconventional ways to remain unnoticed, or even using pen names or pseudonyms that we can't track as easily anymore because of passage of time. I've tried to do research on people that were doing their craft in the 50's and 60's and know how near impossible it is to locate information that just didn't get saved or imaged for us to use as reference material 50 and 60 years later. I've always felt starting from an early age gives you an advantage in any hobby, and I think it makes a strong case for Dave Jay in this instance because had he not been published, I don't think we would have seen other areas evolve the way they did. While he may have benefited immensely from being more socially outward in his approach to building his collection and making a contribution to fandom (if that's what we can glean from this), we also see how his coming of age and use of "Beer Dave" recognizes the ackwardness of being known as "Comic Dave" in those times.

Edited by comicwiz
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1 hour ago, Yellow Kid said:

There really were two comic worlds in the beginning, the east coast and the west coast.  I grew up in Long Beach, CA, and have been a serious collector since the 1950's.  I met Leonard Brown, another serious collector, and we  started a mail-order business out of his parents home.  We built an amazing inventory, added to our collections, and met some other serious collectors on the west coast, mostly in Southern California.  Eventually he opened a store in 1964 with Malcolm Willits as I opted out to finish college and go to grad school.  The most serious collector we ever met was Rick Durrell, who I think was the earliest "super collector" on the west coast.

I am sure you will get the references, Richard, so help me out here...if Dave Jay is the Biggie of the East Coast collectors and Rick Durell is the Tupac of the West Coast crew, the ballaz, then who were the Suges and Puffys running the game?

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2 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

I am sure you will get the references, Richard, so help me out here...if Dave Jay is the Biggie of the East Coast collectors and Rick Durell is the Tupac of the West Coast crew, the ballaz, then who were the Suges and Puffys running the game?

I just want to know, if we've got the East Coast and the West Coast covered in this thread, who's the big tall man of the South?  :baiting:  lol

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Later on, I got a lot of stuff from The American Comic Book Co. David T, Terry Stroud and Carl Macek. They were the “hipsters” of the West Coast scene. Always having wild parties and scooping up great GA and SA collections almost every day. I remember large stacks of GA in the back room just piled on tables. They bought so much they didn’t have time to process them. I knew them pretty well so I was allowed back there and often got first pick.

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5 hours ago, Randall Dowling said:

xD  It would be interesting, though, to hear if Mitch either heard of or otherwise crossed paths with Dave.  Seems unlikely as Mitch is a west coast guy and Dave was apparently an east coast guy.

Dave spent some time in Berkeley in 1967.  Enough time that he took out a personal in the Berkeley Barb.  Ironically, Dave may well have been the guy who responded to Ed Denison's, the manager of Country Joe and the Fish, personal in the Berkeley Barb by sending Ed a copy of his "Raising Hell" book, all without knowing that Ed Denison even knew him.

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3 hours ago, comicwiz said:

While he may have benefited immensely from being more socially outward in his approach to building his collection and making a contribution to fandom (if that's what we can glean from this), we also see how his coming of age and use of "Beer Dave" recognizes the ackwardness of being known as "Comic Dave" in those times.

There is no doubt that Dave was socially awkward.  The clear picture that emerges of him is that he was in the mold of "Leonard" from the Big Bang.  Brilliant, great memory, loved to pontificate, hated disagreement, depended on his friends to give him social aid, very awkward in building relationships with  women (I may go into some of his personals ads) - in other words, almost the prototype of the comic nerd stereotype.  

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2 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

I am sure you will get the references, Richard, so help me out here...if Dave Jay is the Biggie of the East Coast collectors and Rick Durell is the Tupac of the West Coast crew, the ballaz, then who were the Suges and Puffys running the game?

Leonard eventually reached that point and Collectors Bookstore became the dominant power.

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6 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

There is no doubt that Dave was socially awkward.  The clear picture that emerges of him is that he was in the mold of "Leonard" from the Big Bang.  Brilliant, great memory, loved to pontificate, hated disagreement, depended on his friends to give him social aid, very awkward in building relationships with  women (I may go into some of his personals ads) - in other words, almost the prototype of the comic nerd stereotype.  

There's a streak of counter culture in his persona (and a subtle hint of it in the artwork you shared, revealing a Crumb-esque look/feel).  Seeing you write he was in Berkeley in '67, was there any record of him demonstrating an interest in Underground Comix artsts or the movement itself?

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4 hours ago, Yellow Kid said:

There really were two comic worlds in the beginning, the east coast and the west coast.  I grew up in Long Beach, CA, and have been a serious collector since the 1950's.  I met Leonard Brown, another serious collector, and we  started a mail-order business out of his parents home.  We built an amazing inventory, added to our collections, and met some other serious collectors on the west coast, mostly in Southern California.  Eventually he opened a store in 1964 with Malcolm Willits as I opted out to finish college and go to grad school.  The most serious collector we ever met was Rick Durrell, who I think was the earliest "super collector" on the west coast.

Richard, the stories you sent me last year, after I sold you that comic, about you and Leonard Brown were one of the inspirations that helped me in tracking down Dave's story. You and Leonard were clearly way ahead of the curve in the methods and strategies you guys used to acquire comics and, later, deal them.  Your stories allowed me to realize just how remarkable Dave's campaign of buying back issue comics starting in 1948 using classified in national publications, pulps and newspapers really was. 

Edited by sfcityduck
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3 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I just want to know, if we've got the East Coast and the West Coast covered in this thread, who's the big tall man of the South?  :baiting:  lol

If we start measuring by region this thread is gonna end up goin' off the rails fast.  Yes, MrBedrock has my enthusiastic vote and he'll tower over all comers, ...especially if the qualifications stretch to who can see the Northern lights over Siberia from their Texas backyard. (worship)

12 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

So on the list of factors, there's only three I can't check off:

  • The extent of the person's enthusiasm and love of comics and collecting;  [CHECK - Dave clearly loved comics!]
  • The length of time the person collected comics;  [CHECK - Dave started collecting in 1941 and kept going for at least 20 years]
  • The breadth of the the person's comic collection; [CHECK - Dave collected all genres and his collection numbered 5,000 to 6,000 comics by 1948, and he kept on going strong]
  • The quality of the person's comic collection; [CHECK - Dave kept his comics in great shape, and his collection covered the GA]
  • Whether the person has sought out comic book back issues to fill in gaps in their collection, as opposed to just buying comics off the stands;  [CHECK - He bought back issues to fill in holes in collection, especially 1938-1942] 
  • Whether the person has engaged in comic collecting strategies which go beyond just the normal for comic collectors (normal being buying new off the stand and buying back issues from bookstores);  [CHECK - Dave might have been the first collector to place classifieds in national magazines, pulps, and newspapers]
  • Whether the person deals comics;
  • Whether the person has been a market maker;
  • Whether the person has taken the next step to collect original art;  [CHECK - Dave collected comic book and cartoon original art.]
  • Whether the person has shown the enthusiasm to take advantage of publisher sponsored fan interaction opportunities (e.g. letters to the editors, joining publisher sponsored fan groups like Sentinels of Liberty or Supermen of America, entering contests, etc.);  [CHECK - Dave joined comic groups like the Shield Junior G-Men and entered contests]
  • Whether the person has directly communicated with comic creators (artists, writers, editors) or publishers;  [CHECK - Dave sent and received correspondence from industry professionals and developed relationships with them.]
  • Whether the person has created or availed themselves of opportunities to interact with other fans (fanzines, adzines, conventions, networking);  [CHECK - Dave shared knowledge with fans for use in fanzines]
  • Whether the person has gained a significant depth of knowledge about the comics they buy (first appearances, creators, importance to comic history); [CHECK - We've seen that Dave indexed his comics and proposed to write a book on the history of the medium]
  • Whether the person has gained a significant depth of knowledge about the comic business;  [CHECK - Dave knew about the business history from talking to people who lived it]
  • Whether the person has shared their knowledge with other comic collectors; [CHECK - Dave contributed key knowledge to the first serious article about comics to ever appear in a fanzine]
  • Whether the person has advocated in favor of comics and/or comic collecting; [CHECK - Dave was probably the most famous anti-comic censorship advocate of his time]
  • Whether the person has authored articles on comics or comic collecting; [CHECK - Dave wrote the seminal rebuttal of Wertham's attacks on comics, and saw its arguments repeated in newspapers and Timely/Marvel editorials]
  • Whether the person has created or published amateur comics;  [CHECK - Dave authored an amateur comic housed in the National Comic Society archives.]
  • Whether the person has attempted to or become a professional comic creator; [Can't verify this, just a suspicion]  and  
  • Whether the person has done other acts to further comics or comic collecting (a catch-all).  [CHECK - Dave is still inspiring comics fans like me]

Two of those categories concern dealing comics.  There's no information that I yet know of that Dave ever sold comics.

 

Seriously, I was starting to get antsy about this topic even though I'm neither "firstist" nor greatest because, upon reflection, I can check off at least 15 of the 20 questions to some degree (all verifiable) and up to 17 or 18 based on technicalities.  That said, even I don't have the required hubris to claim being a "market maker" and while I'm an artist, I've never directly sought employment in professional comics publishing.  Ask away, I have nothing to hide as I'm not seeking a White House security clearance.

Send the GA retirement watch elsewhere.  Bottom line: If nominated, I won't run & if elected, I won't serve! :bigsmile:

Edited by Cat-Man_America
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1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

As I stated up thread, there are more people than I can count who can claim to be a "Great Comic Collector."  The deeper we get into the 1960s and onward, the more people who can tick the boxes because of the more opportunities there are to tick the boxes.

This thread is NOT arguing that Dave Wigransky was the "Greatest" comic collector.  It instead is arguing that Dave Wigransky is the guy who did enough, by the earliest date, to qualify as the "First" great comic collector.  

And, no, I'm not arguing that Dave was the first "Comic Collector" either.  There were lots of kids collecting comics in the 1940s, many who went on to great prominence in the 1960s.  But, Dave Wigransky stands above the crowed in the 1940s because of the prominence he acheived in articulating his defense of comics in their greatest hour of need and because of the sheer sophistication of his approach to comic collecting which was ahead of its time.

Oh, I saw the point of this thread from the outset.  The problem is that it opens a broader discussion on those who've also contributed to the culture in a major way, your's truly not withstanding.   There are plenty of greats, many of whom are on this board right now, IMO.  While I really like your arguments for Dave, the criterion opens up a whole new thought provoking discussion on who would fill out a top 10 or 20 list.  Just sayin'. (thumbsu

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20 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Oh, I saw the point of this thread from the outset.  The problem is that it opens a broader discussion on those who've also contributed to the culture in a major way, your's truly not withstanding.   There are plenty of greats, many of whom are on this board right now, IMO.  While I really like your arguments for Dave, the criterion opens up a whole new thought provoking discussion on who would fill out a top 10 or 20 list.  Just sayin'. (thumbsu

If the topic is a top 10 or 20 comic collectors/dealers list, you can count me out.  I'd probably have trouble keeping a list below a top 100 or more!  There are so many "greats" that have arisen because comic collecting has been going very strong since the early 1960s, over 50 years ago.  But, those greats are just a fraction of the far larger number of ordinary comic collectors, and truly deserve to be called "greats."  

If the topic is who belongs on the Mt. Rushmore of comic collecting, I would not be putting on Dave on my top four list.  

But, for me, Dave is a really interesting character and he deserves attention for what he was.

But, my guess is that most folks lurking out there are wondering what happened to his collection.

 

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