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The Canon
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60 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, glendgold said:

I'm not sure you can really boil the list down to 15 names.  It's kind of like trying to survive without a couple of kidneys.

Agree. 15 or 50 or 500...the idea of "a list" or "the list" is by definition highly reductionist, too reductionist imo, when talking about a subject so broad that it spans circa 100 years and where every decade, arguably, there were significant (as in "can we really ignore x?") content and style innovations. I'm cool with lists in general but trying to do "all (US) comics, all (US) artists = one short list" is asking too much. A better list (or pair of lists) could be split to innovators by decade and innovators of longevity influence. That's how you get Will Eisner on both lists, for example, but not Chris Ware (first yes, second no). I don't think anybody really wants to knock either Eisner or Ware off all lists but while the art of both is super cool, collectible, valuable to fans and artists alike...they are not those things for the same reason. Hence, more than one list.

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11 minutes ago, glendgold said:

I'm not sure you can really boil the list down to 15 names.  It's kind of like trying to survive without a couple of kidneys. 

Perhaps...but, giving 8 slots to mostly early comic strip artists and 4 slots to indie/underground artists seems very imbalanced, if not (sniff), overly elitist/high-brow to me.  

If I may take a crack at it...I personally think a list like this would have been more representative.  While I think you still need Wally Wood even if Harvey Kurtzman is on the list, I'm not sure early strip art needed the majority of places or if Crumb on his own doesn't fulfill a big portion of both the indie & underground segments of the medium. 

This is also by no means "the" definitive list, as there are a number of slots that could certainly be filled by other choices. But, I do think it is a better list:

Winsor McCay

George Herriman

Hal Foster 

Alex Raymond

Charles Schulz

Harvey Kurtzman

Wally Wood

Will Eisner

Jack Kirby

Steve Ditko

Neal Adams

Frank Miller

Jim Lee

R. Crumb

Dan Clowes

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3 hours ago, delekkerste said:

The exhibition was for American comics/creators only, so that would explain the lack of European and Japanese representation.

But, yes - glaring holes even just among the Yanks!

Ah, ok i missed that part. so never mind the last two :-)

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3 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Perhaps...but, giving 8 slots to mostly early comic strip artists and 4 slots to indie/underground artists seems very imbalanced, if not (sniff), overly elitist/high-brow to me.  

If I may take a crack at it...I personally think a list like this would have been more representative.  While I think you still need Wally Wood even if Harvey Kurtzman is on the list, I'm not sure early strip art needed the majority of places or if Crumb on his own doesn't fulfill a big portion of both the indie & underground segments of the medium. 

This is also by no means "the" definitive list, as there are a number of slots that could certainly be filled by other choices. But, I do think it is a better list:

Winsor McCay

George Herriman

Hal Foster 

Alex Raymond

Charles Schulz

Harvey Kurtzman

Wally Wood

Will Eisner

Jack Kirby

Steve Ditko

Neal Adams

Frank Miller

Jim Lee

R. Crumb

Dan Clowes

Good list. I would probably substitute Art Spiegelman for Dan Clowes, because of the impact of Maus.

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There's a book that I like - The 100: A Ranking Of The Most Influential Persons In History by Michael Hart.

It's an interesting ranking because it ranks people by their impact on society. Not on being the best or the worst or the best looking or the smartest, but on their impact.

A list of comic book artists ranked by their impact on succeeding generations would be interesting. Anyone want to try to pick number one? Milt Caniff? Someone else?

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4 minutes ago, alxjhnsn said:

There's a book that I like - The 100: A Ranking Of The Most Influential Persons In History by Michael Hart.

It's an interesting ranking because it ranks people by their impact on society. Not on being the best or the worst or the best looking or the smartest, but on their impact.

A list of comic book artists ranked by their impact on succeeding generations would be interesting. Anyone want to try to pick number one? Milt Caniff? Someone else?

Since Kirby was in there right at the inception of the explosion of popularity of comic books, and persevered through the ups and downs of the industry to emerge as a fighter still standing and shining.....he gets my nod for #1 impact on the industry.  #1 impact on society is a broader topic, still thinking about that one!  David

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The show took up two museums here in LA, I personally thought they could have included less work by a few more artists. I think they were also trying to show movement in the medium and content which is why it moves, for example, from superheroes (Kirby) to underground (crumb) to contemporary (ware/Panter). I don’t think it was necessarily about who the “best” artists are but more along the lines of who twisted the genre in a new direction.

 There are also artists mentioned in the catalog that weren’t in the show. 

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I'll play....

 

 

1. Winsor McCay

2. George Herriman

3. Frank King 

4. Carl Barks

5. Alex Raymond

6. Noel Sickles

7. Milt Caniff

8. Charles Schulz

9. Will Eisner

10. Jack Kirby

11. Steve Ditko

12. Alex Toth

13. Joe Kubert

14. R. Crumb

15. Art Spiegelman

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Taking L.B. Jeffries list, which gives proper weight to the foundational strip artists, as a starting point, & making judicious replacements:

 

1. Winsor McCay

2. George Herriman

3. Roy Crane

4. Carl Barks

5. Alex Raymond

6. Hal Foster

7. Milt Caniff

8. Charles Schulz

9. Will Eisner

10. Jack Kirby

11. Harvey Kurtzman

12. Neal Adams

13. Bernie Krigstein

14. R. Crumb

15. Los Bros Hernandez (I know, this is a cheat, but they really do share an achievement larger than either of them alone)

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On 3/16/2019 at 2:19 PM, glendgold said:

The Mt Rushmore thread made me think about curators' attempts to establish a canon for American comic artists.  Probably the most known taxonomy happened courtesy of John Carlin, Art Spiegelman and Brian Walker in 2004/05 when they launched the Masters of American Comics museum show.  I looked into the achives here and see it's been mentioned a few times but it hasn't really been delved into.  it toured the States in 2005-2007 -- https://hammer.ucla.edu/exhibitions/2005/masters-of-american-comics/ -- and the accompanying catalogue from Yale University Press https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300113174/masters-american-comics is killer.  (Yes, I have an essay in there; no, that's not why it's killer.)  Their idea was to pick 15 auteurs whose work you had to reckon with if you wanted to undestand the history and aesthetics of American comic artwork. 

Did they succeed?  Probably about as well as these types of attempts can.  It's flawed.  But here's their list: 

1. Winsor McCay

2. Lyonel Feininger

3. George Herriman

4. E.C. Segar

5. Frank King

6. Chester Gould

7. Milt Caniff

8. Charles Schulz

9. Will Eisner

10. Jack Kirby

11. Harvey Kurtzman

12. R. Crumb

13. Art Spiegelman

14. Gary Panter

15. Chris Ware

What were people's immediate, knee-jerk "hey what!" moments?  Feininger for one.  He was a cartoonist for about 15 seconds.  But his later career in fine art made a strong argument to the curators for his contributions to the medium.  Also: Gould?  Really? And yet no Barks? No Raymond or Foster?  Also...well, also a lot of things.  Where are the women, for one?  The argument was roughly that yes women were contributers to comics history, but no there weren't any who lived up to the requirements of inclusion.  (I argued for Lynda Barry at the time, and I think by now her influences have panned out in the current generation of autobiographical comics folks, but hey that's just my opinion, man.) 

Also it's interesting that the first half of the list is all strip and the second half all comic book.  I can see the reason for that.  You'll note there's just one superhero artist.  And Kirby wasn't even a lock.  I think the curators saw the superhero genre as a thin slice of the pie. 

When the art was on the walls of the Hammer Museum and MOCA, it was incredibly impressive. Moving. I hadn't understood why Frank King was included until seeing the art in person.  Also, it made me think about the definition of a canon not being "stuff I like" but people whose contributions to the form were crucial to its development.

But I dunno, what do you think?  Is this an acceptable canon still? 

G

 

 

 

 

Glen, thanks for posting about this. I went out and found the hardcover catalogue/book you mention on Amazon for $49 and ordered it. It arrived yesterday and is SPECTACULAR (as is your essay on Kirby). What a phenomenal find. I appreciate the heads up on it! 

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Incredibly challenging to boil down to 15; not sure who I would boot but I do like the idea of the inclusion of Hogarth as he taught and influenced so many, such as Joe Sinnott, who has had quiet but broad influence.

Also, with all due respect to Dale Messick, if I were to pick one woman, Wendy Pini is the first to come to mind, as a creator, pioneer of independent comics publishing, and perhaps manga's first American ambassador. (And while it's not directly relevant to the argument, she's also basically the mother of cosplay).

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8 hours ago, Readcomix said:

Incredibly challenging to boil down to 15; not sure who I would boot but I do like the idea of the inclusion of Hogarth as he taught and influenced so many, such as Joe Sinnott, who has had quiet but broad influence.

Also, with all due respect to Dale Messick, if I were to pick one woman, Wendy Pini is the first to come to mind, as a creator, pioneer of independent comics publishing, and perhaps manga's first American ambassador. (And while it's not directly relevant to the argument, she's also basically the mother of cosplay).

A fair argument. Although if we go beyond artistry, then can we really omit Jenette Kahn over at DC? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenette_Kahn

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54 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

A fair argument. Although if we go beyond artistry, then can we really omit Jenette Kahn over at DC? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenette_Kahn

Her influence was not as an illustrator. I mentioned Pini's role in early fandom in a parenthetical because it's interesting, but she stands on her illustrator merits. 

PS - I forgot Lily Renee; not sure either lady makes the top 15 influential illustrators; I just think they are near or at the top of the list of females who would be considered in the discussion of which women, if any, could crack a top 15 list in a field that has been largely populated by males.

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1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

A fair argument. Although if we go beyond artistry, then can we really omit Jenette Kahn over at DC? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenette_Kahn

 

49 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

Her influence was not as an illustrator.

So going a bit further OT from strict drawers but much like any 'other' list would have to include Stan Lee...imagine a world without Karen Berger.

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30 minutes ago, vodou said:

 

So going a bit further OT from strict drawers but much like any 'other' list would have to include Stan Lee...imagine a world without Karen Berger.

Readmix wrote:

PS - I forgot Lily Renee; not sure either lady makes the top 15 influential illustrators; I just think they are near or at the top of the list of females who would be considered in the discussion of which women, if any, could crack a top 15 list in a field that has been largely populated by males.

 

Agreed. Given the question, the basic problem is that this was a male dominated industry for so long that major women artists were rare. I guess you could add Ramona Fredon to the list, too, but I don't think she belongs in the top 15 or even close. I wonder who a list of top 15 femaile artists would include?

Edited by Rick2you2
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5 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Readmix wrote:

PS - I forgot Lily Renee; not sure either lady makes the top 15 influential illustrators; I just think they are near or at the top of the list of females who would be considered in the discussion of which women, if any, could crack a top 15 list in a field that has been largely populated by males.

 

Agreed. Given the question, the basic problem is that this was a male dominated industry for so long that major women artists were rare. I guess you could add Ramona Fredon to the list, too, but I don't think she belongs in the top 15 or even close. I wonder who a list of top 15 femaile artists would include?

I think the nature of the industry has meant that many of the women on the list would be outside the mainstream, but I would certainly include Marie Severin, Ramona Fradon, Lynda Barry, Shary Flenniken, Jill Thompson, Dale Messick, June Brigman, Roz Chast, Lily Renee, Wendy Pini, Aline Kominski, Fiona Staples and  Mary Fleener in my top fifteen with a few  spots left for the inevitable person I forgot and will feel stupid I didn't mention. .

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I saw the exhibition when it came to the NY area and have the book .These are all good artists but I'm not so sure about Art Spiegelman, Gary Panter, Chris Ware who seem to be the darlings of the "I don't read comics but I find these artists interesting" pseudo intellectual gang.Don't get me wrong ,Maus was a classic and probably reserves Spiegelman's spot,but Chris Ware, whose work I love, just hasn't produced enough work and Panter who works in a variety of genres (loved his Pee-Wee playhouse designs) would be a definite no. His comic art drawing skills are minimal  and strikes me as a low budget Crumb. 

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5 hours ago, furthur said:

I think the nature of the industry has meant that many of the women on the list would be outside the mainstream, but I would certainly include Marie Severin, Ramona Fradon, Lynda Barry, Shary Flenniken, Jill Thompson, Dale Messick, June Brigman, Roz Chast, Lily Renee, Wendy Pini, Aline Kominski, Fiona Staples and  Mary Fleener in my top fifteen with a few  spots left for the inevitable person I forgot and will feel stupid I didn't mention. .

Here is one list at https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/the-greatest-female-comic-book-creators-of-all-time

The writer would add Trina Robbins to the list. I might add Colleen Doran.

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