Disney+'s WandaVision (2020) 6 6

[Randall Dowling]

This conversation got weird...

[drotto]

3 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Okay, so who's the hero? As in the protagonist? Don't tell me you think Hayward is the protagonist?

Vision. He is ultimately the key to talking her down, and getting Wanda to realize what she is doing is wrong. Wanda's actions are actually shown to be constantly flip flopping between good and evil as a representation of her fractured mental state.  She is trying to protect the person she loves and her 'family", but enslaves an entire town to make that happen. She does good when she stops Agnus, but it was her bad actions that started everything in the first place.  Agnus was evil, but is just an opportunist, not the one who set everything in motion. Hayward may have provided the explosives, but Wanda set them off. Everything that happened here with the exception of the experiments on Visions body, were a direct results of Wanda. She is not intentionally evil, she is having a mental breakdown, but her actions were evil.

 

Experimenting on the body was wrong, but I doubt Hayward was the one who initiated that, I suspect he too was following orders, we just do not know who's. 

 

 

[@therealsilvermane]

6 hours ago, drotto said:

Vision. He is ultimately the key to talking her down, and getting Wanda to realize what she is doing is wrong. Wanda's actions are actually shown to be constantly flip flopping between good and evil as a representation of her fractured mental state.  She is trying to protect the person she loves and her 'family", but enslaves an entire town to make that happen. She does good when she stops Agnus, but it was her bad actions that started everything in the first place.  Agnus was evil, but is just an opportunist, not the one who set everything in motion. Hayward may have provided the explosives, but Wanda set them off. Everything that happened here with the exception of the experiments on Visions body, were a direct results of Wanda. She is not intentionally evil, she is having a mental breakdown, but her actions were evil.

 

Experimenting on the body was wrong, but I doubt Hayward was the one who initiated that, I suspect he too was following orders, we just do not know who's. 

This isn't just based on my analysis, but from the show's head writer Jac Schaeffer and the director Mark Shakman. While there are several sub-conflicts in each episode, there is one main conflict and one main protagonist. The main protagonist is Wanda. The main antagonist is grief.

Over the course of WandaVision, the main conflict is Wanda vs her own grief which has overcome her. This grief is so powerful that it's unleashed an inner power within her making her one of the most powerful beings on Earth. All the events from Episode One to Episode Nine can be traced to Wanda's way of dealing with this immeasurable grief, from creating a D Van Dyke world to creating twins. With help from her new family, some coaching from Agatha, understanding the wrong that'd been done to the folks of Westview, and saying good-bye to the family she created in Westview on her own terms, Wanda was able to come to terms with the tragedy in her life and thus overcome.

Throughout the show, fans speculated on a big bad demon like Mephisto or Chthon. The demon was actually grief.

Edited March 23, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

2 hours ago, Randall Dowling said:

This conversation got weird...

I stopped reading a while ago as I knew this was going south.

But I do get how Wanda got off easy after keeping thousands of people prisoner. There's no 'hero' in that scenario.

[nmtg9]

This is exhausting. Series is over already. The truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle. 

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

15 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

That's right. From the first Episode we met Hayward, he came off as a bit unlikable. But as far as we knew, he wasn't wrong. It was only after we found out that he was after Vision that we realized something's not right. Then after we saw him bring the original Vision online in Episode 8 did we realize his intention was to do the exact thing he accused Wanda of doing, resurrecting Vision against the Accords and against Vision's will.

Violating Section 36B of the Sokovia Accords is what makes Hayward a criminal and thus arrestable at the end. But it doesn't necessary make him the villain. Punisher breaks the laws all the time, but that doesn't make him a villain. Batman breaks laws, doesn't make him a villain.

Hayward is a villain because he continuously throughout WandaVision doesn't do the right thing and undermines those characters who do want to do the right thing. More than a criminal, he's an antagonist. Let me count the ways...

1. When Wanda wants to give Vision a proper burial, Hayward won't let her, but not because he doesn't want to put billions of dollars of Vibranium in the ground(which is the reason he gives to Wanda), it's because he secretly wants to put Vision back together again to use as a weapon, in violation of the Accords.

2. In the first mission brief he gives in Episode 5, Hayward falsely accuses Wanda of stealing Vision's body from SWORD and resurrecting him, falsely accusing Wanda of violating Section 36B of the Accords. That sets the entire mission on the wrong foot, when he knows the real intent, and wastes a lot of people's time and taxpayer dollars. Oh, and a false accusation is itself punishable with imprisonment. Right there he has already broken the law in addition to just being villainous.

3. Also in Episode 5, Hayward disguises an 80's missile as a drone so he can kill Wanda, and her family as collateral damage. Regardless of one's feelings about Wanda at that point, it's still a villainous thing to do. The story of Wanda up until this point has been that Wanda is a reluctant hero who has saved the world numerous times. Hayward doesn't care, isn't giving Wanda the benefit of the doubt, and tries to kill her. Or does he know he can't kill her with it and wants to test how strong she is? That seems to be his real intention as revealed in Episode Six. Shady and kinda villainous.

4. In Episode 6, Hayward removes any dissenting opinions to his plan by removing the good guys, Rambeau Darcy and Woo, from the base. He's not interested in team or pulling great minds together, he thinks his plan is the only way. That's characteristic of villainy.

5. And In Episode 8, we learn that Hayward's been lying the whole time, he actually had Vision's body, and he falsely accused Wanda of stealing the body. And we learn that Hayward's master plan was to bring Vision's body back online as a weapon under his control. Both illegal and villainous.

6. Episode 9, we further learn that Hayward's villainous plan also involves being able to keep White Vision as he can blame Wanda for bringing him back to life and there'll be no evidence to prove otherwise. Then he locks up an FBI agent who he has no jurisdiction over. Villainous.

7. Also in Episode 9, Hayward truly reveals his hatred for the super-powered when he attempts to shoot in cold blood Wanda's kids after he sees them harmlessly disarm his troops, after Wanda had just saved them from falling to their deaths or grave injury due to Agatha. That's villainy almost in the same vein of Bolivar Trask who wants to kill mutants because of who they are.

In each of these instances, Hayward is the antagonist undermining the attempts by the good guys, from Wanda in the beginning to Agent Woo, to do the right thing. That makes Hayward a villain.

That's not the "original Vision". There's nothing to prove that Hayward acts against the Accords. In fact, it's his job as Director of SWORD to contain and eliminate threats.

Hayward is not a villain, because his purpose in the show is to eliminate a villain. Hayward doesn't answer to the rebels that want to save a psychological terrorist. Emotional attachment clouds judgment. Hayward has no emotional attachment, while Woo, Darcy, and Monica seemingly do.

So, in the end, Wanda is a psychological terrorist (villain) and Hayward is simply doing his job (anti-hero, at worst).

[@therealsilvermane]

6 hours ago, nmtg9 said:

The truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle.

Correction: the truth, as always, is somewhere in my posts.

[Bosco685]

19 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Correction: the truth, as always, is somewhere in my posts.

[Bosco685]

[HighVoltage]

12 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Binary solo!

(see Flight of the Conchords)

Edited March 26, 2021 by HighVoltage
Spelling

[Bosco685]

2 hours ago, HighVoltage said:

Binary solo!

(see Flight of the Conchords)

 

[TupennyConan]

[Bosco685]

Quote

Still, some fans have questions about Doctor Strange's whereabouts during the show's events, and the head of Marvel Studios has just admitted the hero was meant to star in WandaVision.

 

The whole thing came to light this month when Rolling Stone put out its latest issue. The magazine did an in-depth piece on the making of WandaVision where reporter Brian Hiatt spoke with Kevin Feige, the president of Marvel Studios. It was there the producer owned up to Strange's original role in the show and why it was cut in the end.

 

As Feige put it, Marvel Studios approached star Benedict Cumberbatch to reprise his role as Doctor Strange for WandaVision. A deal was made between the parties, and Feige said Strange's role was tied directly to the mysterious commercials littered through the series. These commercials, which made sly nods to Hydra and more, were going to be sent to Wanda from Doctor Strange in a bid to break the illusion she cast.

 

But in the end, the sorcerer was cut out from WandaVision. Feige said the team felt adding the hero would overshadow the narrative's focus on Wanda up until his debut. "Some people might say, 'Oh, it would've been so cool to see Doctor Strange. But It would have taken away from Wanda. We didn't want the end of the show to be commoditized to go to the next movie - here's the white guy, 'Let me show you how power works.'"

 

Feige went on to say that Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness had to undergo a short rewrite in light of this change.

 

[Zonker]

3 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Strange's role was tied directly to the mysterious commercials littered through the series. These commercials, which made sly nods to Hydra and more, were going to be sent to Wanda from Doctor Strange in a bid to break the illusion she cast.

 That would have made more sense than the (non-) explanation we were given for the commercials' presence in Wanda's broadcast.

[Bosco685]

Doctor Strange had an even bigger involvement which makes logical sense knowing he is sensing any magic used across his protectorate (Earth). The commercials were him trying to communicate with Wanda to break her out of this alternate world.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Bosco685

[TupennyConan]

They should delete Dr Strange from Dr Strange 2 & give the film over to Wanda because he is a white guy and she isn't [Karen status notwithstanding].  

[drotto]

3 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Doctor Strange had an even bigger involvement which makes logical sense knowing he is sensing any magic used across his protectorate (Earth). The commercials were him trying to communicate with Wanda to break her out of this alternate world.

I overall liked WandaVision.  I do not think that including Dr. Strange would have lessoned Wanda's story.  I do think that this would have made for a better show, and would have better tied it it to the MCU. In retorspect, knowing these scenes were written, the plot holes and some of the odd events make a lot more sense.  It would also have provided that "Luke Skywalker" moment that the people making the show seemed to be hinting at.  I wonder if some of these rumors from the cast originated from knowledge of what had been cut. 

[Bosco685]

3 hours ago, drotto said:

I overall liked WandaVision.  I do not think that including Dr. Strange would have lessoned Wanda's story.  I do think that this would have made for a better show, and would have better tied it it to the MCU. In retorspect, knowing these scenes were written, the plot holes and some of the odd events make a lot more sense.  It would also have provided that "Luke Skywalker" moment that the people making the show seemed to be hinting at.  I wonder if some of these rumors from the cast originated from knowledge of what had been cut. 

Knowing that Strange was sending signals to Wanda to help her break out from her magic trance while she held over 3K residents hostage to craft this alternate world is so cool and fits the mold of him tracking such activities. It was too massive a magical event for him not be actively aware and investigating the occurrence. I guess that's what happens when the MCU crafts this huge interconnected world and then has solo stories where viewers have to wonder why the other characters wouldn't respond to activities clearly in their wheelhouse. 

[Cozmo-One]

I really liked WandaVision, but agree that it would have been better and made more sense to include Dr. Strange as outlined.  It would have also made Wanda more sympathetic, as it also mentions that Hayword basically manipulated her into creating the hex so that he could get a powered up Vision - and she didn't just knowingly hold thousands of people hostage.

[drotto]

2 minutes ago, Cozmo-One said:

I really liked WandaVision, but agree that it would have been better and made more sense to include Dr. Strange as outlined.  It would have also made Wanda more sympathetic, as it also mentions that Hayword basically manipulated her into creating the hex so that he could get a powered up Vision - and she didn't just knowingly hold thousands of people hostage.

Yeah, it is unfortunate they cut that explanation out also. One of my other issues with the show was Hayword, as presented, could have just been a jerk following orders rather than a villain, until he shot at the children.  Him shooting at the kids as aired came across as we have one last chance to show him as a bad guy, rather than a logical action.  Hayword being shown as actively manipulating Wanda and knowing far more about the hex, would have made his final actions much more logical.