Top 10 most Influential and Historically Important GA Books 2 2

[telerites]

2 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

Look at that!  You are right!

That is what I remember as well.

[telerites]

How about Pep #17 with the death of the Comet leading to his brother becoming the Hangman?  Was this the first superhero death in comics?

And Best Comics #1 with the first African/American superhero - the Red Mask.  

 

[sfcityduck]

Here's my top 5 most historically important and influential GA comics in Chronological Order are:

* Funnies on Parade - 1st true comic book format comic publication (this decided the format for comics as we know them);

* Famous Funnies 1 - 1st newsstand comic (this 10 center led the way to the dominant form of mass market distribution of comics)

* New Fun Comics 1 - first comic book to feature entirely original material and first DC (set off the wave of non-strip reprint comics)

* Action 1 - Birth of the modern comic book superhero (Superman set off the wave of superhero comics)

* Superman 1 - 1st single superhero character comic (this set off a wave of single character superhero comics that became the dominant genre in comic history)

Yep, Detective 27 doesn't make my top 5 (what does it have going for it other than introducing a popular character?  That's not enough to be "important and influential" in my book.  I'm not sure the D27 Batman was all that influential in the GA.  Arguably, the introduction of Robin was more influential on both the direction of Batman and on other features.). 

And to further shock, Captain America 1 may not make my top 20 or 25 because he was just another Shield rip-off, and lacked the staying power to survive the GA. As a character in the GA, Cap America is far less important to comic history than Captain Marvel, and Whiz 2 is way more important and influential than CA 1.  

I could go on, but I'd just end up arguing all day.  The key is don't confuse "currently popular character" with the notion of "historically important and influential."  

 

[Casablanca]

1 hour ago, telerites said:

How about Pep #17 with the death of the Comet leading to his brother becoming the Hangman?  Was this the first superhero death in comics?

And Best Comics #1 with the first African/American superhero - the Red Mask.  

 

I thought Red Mask was from the South Pacific?

Wouldn't Matt Baker's Voodah count as 1st known black hero from Crown Comics #3?

[circumstances]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

Here's my top 5 most historically important and influential GA comics in Chronological Order are:

* Funnies on Parade - 1st true comic book format comic publication (this decided the format for comics as we know them);

* Famous Funnies 1 - 1st newsstand comic (this 10 center led the way to the dominant form of mass market distribution of comics)

* New Fun Comics 1 - first comic book to feature entirely original material and first DC (set off the wave of non-strip reprint comics)

* Action 1 - Birth of the modern comic book superhero (Superman set off the wave of superhero comics)

* Superman 1 - 1st single superhero character comic (this set off a wave of single character superhero comics that became the dominant genre in comic history)

Yep, Detective 27 doesn't make my top 5 (what does it have going for it other than introducing a popular character?  That's not enough to be "important and influential" in my book.  I'm not sure the D27 Batman was all that influential in the GA.  Arguably, the introduction of Robin was more influential on both the direction of Batman and on other features.). 

And to further shock, Captain America 1 may not make my top 20 or 25 because he was just another Shield rip-off, and lacked the staying power to survive the GA. As a character in the GA, Cap America is far less important to comic history than Captain Marvel, and Whiz 2 is way more important and influential than CA 1.  

I could go on, but I'd just end up arguing all day.  The key is don't confuse "currently popular character" with the notion of "historically important and influential."  

 

 

What are your thoughts on the first appearance of Dr. Occult, as a precursor that paved Siegel and Shuster's way to creating Superman?

 

Or Funny Pages 6/Funny Picture Stories 1, first appearance of the Clock, the first masked hero?

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by circumstances

[sfcityduck]

28 minutes ago, circumstances said:

 

What are your thoughts on the first appearance of Dr. Occult, as a precursor that paved Siegel and Shuster's way to creating Superman?

 

Or Funny Pages 6/Funny Picture Stories 1, first appearance of the Clock, the first masked hero?

 

Dr. Occult first appeared in October 1935.  He's a magical hero.  He's not a "superhero" in the sense of Superman.  He's more like Lee Falk's comic strip creation Mandrake, who pre-dated Dr. Occult (as did the Phantom Magician).  I don't view Dr. Occult as a Superman precursor in any significant way (and Superman was being created by S&S before Dr. Occult).  He looks a lot more like a mystical Flash Gordon than Superman in those early New Funs.  The most abused term in comics collecting is "try out."

Similarly, the Clock wears a mask.  But, then again, so does Lee Falk's comic strip creation the Phantom and radio's Green Hornet, who predate the Clock.   There were a lot of early "masked detectives" like the Clock, including the Shadow (masks bottom half of face), Crimson Avenger (pre-dates Batman in Detective), Green Hornet, etc.  In fact, the Phantom wears a full costume (sorry Batman) before the Clock.  I don't view these masked detectives, or even the Phantom, as a true superhero.  

So I'm not sure that either of those comics were particularly "historical," and I know they weren't particularly "influential."  So they likely don't make my top 25, and get nowhere near my top 5.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by sfcityduck

[telerites]

44 minutes ago, RSS0429 said:

I thought Red Mask was from the South Pacific?

Wouldn't Matt Baker's Voodah count as 1st known black hero from Crown Comics #3?

According to GCD and many other sources, it is Red Mask in 1939. Here is the quote from the index of GCD - "The Red Mask is the first known published African-American comic book masked hero."  

If you search, there are quite a few references - here is one http://worldofblackheroes.com/2018/02/15/red-mask-character/ - "The cover for issue #1 shows a black man in a red mask punching a white man; the cover of issue #2 shows a white man in a red mask on the cover, but the character inside the book is still black. Considered the first costumed Black hero in the history of comics."'

I could very well be wrong, it is what I had always thought and heard.

 

 

[Knightsofold]

Not in any order:

Action comics #1 -super hero

Detective Comics #27 -1st batman

Captain America Comics #1 the king of comics first hit. iconic/historic/etc etc interventional 

All Star #3 1st team cover

Sensation Comics #1 1st super heroine cover?

Marvel Comics #1  1st Anti hero / and Opposite of superman

Marvel Mystery Comics #9 -crossover/battle 

Pep #22 - Archie

Detective Comics #33 -A man can be a hero (origin)

Detective Comics #38 -annoying sidekicks begin

Wonder Woman #1 1st dedicated super heroine book

Whiz Comics #2(1) Imitations can last

Superman #1 1st solo super hero book.

 

 

[Casablanca]

50 minutes ago, telerites said:

According to GCD and many other sources, it is Red Mask in 1939. Here is the quote from the index of GCD - "The Red Mask is the first known published African-American comic book masked hero."  

If you search, there are quite a few references - here is one http://worldofblackheroes.com/2018/02/15/red-mask-character/ - "The cover for issue #1 shows a black man in a red mask punching a white man; the cover of issue #2 shows a white man in a red mask on the cover, but the character inside the book is still black. Considered the first costumed Black hero in the history of comics."'

I could very well be wrong, it is what I had always thought and heard.

 

 

Thank you for this! I am researching Baker for a project and i came across " Voodah" as being listed as the first black superhero. I guess i have to keep researching...

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

48 minutes ago, Knightsofold said:

Detective Comics #38 -annoying sidekicks begin

Although I would draw my list differently, you are dead on with this one

[sfcityduck]

Yep.  I think a strong argument can be made that Detective 38 was far more influential in the GA than Detective 27.

After all, what heroes, if any, are the D27 version of Batman's imitators?  Wildcat maybe?  Green Arrow is really more of a post-D38 imitation.  Batman hardly set off a huge trend.

But, Robin sure did! Speedy, Bucky, Toro, Kitten, kid groups like the Young Allies and Newsboy Legion, just too many to list.   

[telerites]

3 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Yep.  I think a strong argument can be made that Detective 38 was far more influential in the GA than Detective 27.

After all, what heroes, if any, are the D27 version of Batman's imitators?  Wildcat maybe?  Green Arrow is really more of a post-D38 imitation.  Batman hardly set off a huge trend.

But, Robin sure did! Speedy, Bucky, Toro, Kitten, kid groups like the Young Allies and Newsboy Legion, just too many to list.   

Yeah,  I am pretty overt in my dislike for Robin but I cannot deny the character's influence and importance for the industry.   

[telerites]

4 hours ago, RSS0429 said:

Thank you for this! I am researching Baker for a project and i came across " Voodah" as being listed as the first black superhero. I guess i have to keep researching...

Just an addition when I looked up Crown 3 on GCD, the issue's index has this note , "note from the error list: Voodah is colored like a native African in this comic, but after this issue he is colored like a Caucasian."

 

[PopKulture]

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I could go on, but I'd just end up arguing all day.  The key is don't confuse "currently popular character" with the notion of "historically important and influential."  

Can I volunteer you for more arguing? Your list is rendered less assailable for the reasons cited, as each of them represents a monstrous step forward. I am curious how your next five or so shake out, especially regarding some of the aforementioned suggestions - such as All-Star 3, Whiz 2, Eerie or Crime Does Not Pay. 

The case for Robin's debut in Detective 38 being more important than issue 27 is compelling enough.

As a side note, can Pep 22 be similarly diminished, as there were certainly teen characters enough among the syndicated strips (think Harold Teen)?

Edited March 19, 2019 by PopKulture

[sfcityduck]

42 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

Can I volunteer you for more arguing? Your list is rendered less assailable for the reasons cited, as each of them represents a monstrous step forward. I am curious how your next five or so shake out, especially regarding some of the aforementioned suggestions - such as All-Star 3, Whiz 2, Eerie or Crime Does Not Pay. 

 

I think all four of those comics may make a top 20.  Why?

Mainly because my list is not character centric.  There are more character "firsts" than anyone can count.  "First Captain America" or Wonder Woman doesn't register much with me because CA was a derivative trend follower, not a historic first or trend setter, and WW was also not the first patriotic or first female superhero.  Great characters, but the history of comics includes the debuts of hundreds of great characters.  So I view a list of the most historically important and influential comics to be entirely different than a list of classic superheroes debuts or most valuable comic list.

What strikes me as important are comics which had a broad impact on the very nature of comics - either content or form or business - or which have some sort of historical import.   All four of the comics you list fall into those categories. 

All-Star 3 introduced a mainstay concept of superhero comics that would only become bigger and bigger - the superhero group.  [Similarly D38 makes my list because it introduced the kid superhero sidekick, an amazingly popular concept with a ton of staying power.  It doesn't hurt that Robin remained in continuous publication through the GA, at times in more titles than Batman.]

Whiz 2 effectively defeated DC's monopoly on superheros, even those who resembled Superman, because Fawcett basically wore D.C. down into to stop trying to squelch all other superheros, which was significant given the success DC had in quashing Wonder Man.  Captain Marvel also went on to become, at one point, the most popular superhero comic, and survived through most of the GA in a robust array of titles until finally put out publication for legal reasons.

Crime Does Not Pay started the realistic crime comics trend, which would ultimately be the undoing of many publishers and lead to the CCA.

Eerie is a harder case because the PCH trend morphed out of crime comics, and horror stories had appeared in anthologies for many years before Eerie.  I get the case for Eerie, but I might pick a different comic for the horror trend.  I think the first significant horror comic is not as clear cut as some of the other genres like superheroes or romance.

Finally, you are right that just being the first comic of a genre might not be enough to make my list.  That's simply because there are so many genres - strip reprints, science fiction, western, mystery, detective, literature, magic/occult, jungle, spy, adventure, fantasy, crime, horror, romance, sports, teen, funny animal, comedian, tv, funny person, kid characters, Harvey style, Disney, cave man, medieval, pirates, reporters, etc. etc. etc.  You'd burn up over 20 comics with just each genre debut.  And not all genres are of equal value when you talk comics.  Superheros were a comics invention.  Most other genres were not.  Also, just because a comic was "first," does not mean it was influential.  My nominee for the first graphic novel, for example, while of great historic import, was not influential at all.

Ditto for publisher debuts.  I'm inclined to put Marvel Comics 1 on my list just because it is the first Marvel/Atlas/Timely.  But, what about other major publishers?  Fiction House, Quality, Dell, Harvey, Archie, etc. would all have their fans.  You have to draw a line somewhere, and I think there is a better case for Marvel because of its present pop culture significance.   DC and Fawcett's first comics make my list primarily for other reasons.

Where it gets really hard is picking comics to put on the list because of the influence of the writing or the art.  I think EC belongs in the Top 20, but you have to ask yourself "why?" and "what?"   For me, its due to the maturity of the writing and the art and the themes and the social relevance.  But there's a lot of other great and influential artists and writers.  There's not a lot of room on a list.

The first 5 spots on my list are easy, especially when you look at them in chronological order.  After that, it starts to get very hard.  Which is why I stopped at 5.

 

[PeterPark]

It just occurred to me that there is an argument for Classic Comics 1. Reprinted for decades and being a gateway to comics for so many people. Continuously published throughout the introduction of the comics code and generally accepted as appropriate reading material even when other comics were not. Not the most valuable either, but that's because they were so ubiquitous. The influence is there and they are largely different from trendier comics coming out at the same times...I pick number 1 because it's the first. Is there any particular issue that was reprinted more?

[Robot Man]

On 3/17/2019 at 9:56 PM, OtherEric said:

Will chime in with the one book I own that makes a case for the list... Mad #1.  It had an absolutely massive impact both within and outside of comics.

Of course I’m a little biased, but concur on MAD #1. Created a whole new genre that influenced tons of artists and comic fans. Still stumbling along even today. 

Speaking of influences, not GA but how about ZAP #1? Ground breaking book that also created a genre. No doubt about how much Crumb was influenced by MAD and probably influenced many himself.

[Microbia]

Great thread! What about All Negro 1 and Negro Romances 1-3? (If not mentioned yet). They probably didn't have much influence at the time they were on the newsstands, especially given their low print runs, but ushered in racial diversity in comics over the ensuing decades. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Microbia

[IngelsFan]

6 minutes ago, Microbia said:

Great thread! What about All Negro 1 and Negro Romances 1-3? (If not mentioned yet). They probably didn't have much influence at the time they were on the newsstands, especially given their low print runs, but ushered in racial diversity in comics over the ensuing decades. 

I agree with you on this one. Also, as a sidebar, there needs to be a book written about the evolution of racial diversity in comics from both a character and creator perspective. As a horror fan the earliest African American artists I’m familiar with are Tom Feeings and A C Hollingsworth, but the earliest in cartoons is probably Herriman.

[telerites]

10 minutes ago, Microbia said:

Great thread! What about All Negro 1 and Negro Romances 1-3? (If not mentioned yet). They probably didn't have much influence at the time they were on the newsstands, especially given their low print runs, but ushered in racial diversity in comics over the ensuing decades. 

I agree, they should be recognized.  I mentioned Best Comics #1 earlier as the first African-American comic book hero but your suggestions were more overt obviously with the title and especially All-Negro Comics, published, drawn and written by African-American creators.