Top 10 most Influential and Historically Important GA Books 2 2

[Ken Aldred]

On 3/18/2019 at 3:21 PM, Black_Adam said:

 

 

Okay, it is a bit gory, but surely you have to admit that the Johnny Craig artwork is just incredible !

[KirbyJack]

I'm going to fire a shot here with another aspect of Captain America #1's significance. During Kirby's 10 issue run of Cap (plus 2 All-Winners), he virtually invented the visual language of the super-hero genre. The dynamism, pace, pure energy of the art was unequaled. It's still the underlying template; and in many ways, super-hero comics are Kirby comics. Action rather than violence. It's a subtle but important distinction.

If the capes are significant, then Kirby's effect on them in Captain America is significant. Comics creators of the time were very aware of what Simon and Kirby were doing, and were influenced. 

 

Speaking of capes, Superman #1 needs more love. It confirmed the super-hero's viability, no...dominance in the market. Before Sup #1, a trickle of supers; bets hedged safely in anthologies. After Sup #1, the avalanche of heroes of The Golden Age.

[Robot Man]

How about the first Eerie from Avon? First true all horror book. Although there were many horror themed stories in other books, this was the first one to be a pure horror title. It spawned a whole genre that eventually led to the comics code and the near collapse of the whole industry. That in itself makes it make the list to me. Next to Superheroes, horror books are among the most collected of all GA comics today. 

[PeterPark]

33 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

How about the first Eerie from Avon? First true all horror book. Although there were many horror themed stories in other books, this was the first one to be a pure horror title. It spawned a whole genre that eventually led to the comics code and the near collapse of the whole industry. That in itself makes it make the list to me. Next to Superheroes, horror books are among the most collected of all GA comics today. 

My only issue with Eerie is it is the first but was it the influence of this book that led to the horror comic genre or another book? Being the first doesn't necessarily mean it's the influence on the others, but just the first to print. And wasn't it a couple years before Avon returned to Eerie? Sales couldn't have been out of this world if their first foray didn't pan out immediately...at least Young Romance was a long-running title...

[Joesmith817]

7 hours ago, Mr bla bla said:

Pretty far fetched deconstruction of Batman imho. Sorry im not convinced.

I don't understand. Which part was "far fetched"? 

[Jayman]

1 hour ago, PeterPark said:

My only issue with Eerie is it is the first but was it the influence of this book that led to the horror comic genre or another book? Being the first doesn't necessarily mean it's the influence on the others, but just the first to print. And wasn't it a couple years before Avon returned to Eerie? Sales couldn't have been out of this world if their first foray didn't pan out immediately...at least Young Romance was a long-running title...

Adventures into the Unknown #1

[sacentaur]

4 hours ago, KirbyJack said:

I'm going to fire a shot here with another aspect of Captain America #1's significance. During Kirby's 10 issue run of Cap (plus 2 All-Winners), he virtually invented the visual language of the super-hero genre. The dynamism, pace, pure energy of the art was unequaled. It's still the underlying template; and in many ways, super-hero comics are Kirby comics.

Excellent point.

I also look at the cinematic approach taken by Will Eisner with The Spirit (1940), taking mere panels and transforming them into a compelling narrative flow.

[adamstrange]

2 hours ago, PeterPark said:

3 hours ago, Robot Man said:

How about the first Eerie from Avon? First true all horror book. Although there were many horror themed stories in other books, this was the first one to be a pure horror title. It spawned a whole genre that eventually led to the comics code and the near collapse of the whole industry. That in itself makes it make the list to me. Next to Superheroes, horror books are among the most collected of all GA comics today. 

My only issue with Eerie is it is the first but was it the influence of this book that led to the horror comic genre or another book? Being the first doesn't necessarily mean it's the influence on the others, but just the first to print. And wasn't it a couple years before Avon returned to Eerie? Sales couldn't have been out of this world if their first foray didn't pan out immediately...at least Young Romance was a long-running title...

Eerie 1 was historic.

Adv Into Unknown 1 was influential.

[sfcityduck]

5 hours ago, KirbyJack said:

I'm going to fire a shot here with another aspect of Captain America #1's significance. During Kirby's 10 issue run of Cap (plus 2 All-Winners), he virtually invented the visual language of the super-hero genre. The dynamism, pace, pure energy of the art was unequaled. It's still the underlying template; and in many ways, super-hero comics are Kirby comics. Action rather than violence. It's a subtle but important distinction.

If the capes are significant, then Kirby's effect on them in Captain America is significant. Comics creators of the time were very aware of what Simon and Kirby were doing, and were influenced. 

 

I think this argument has high potential.  But, here's my question:  Which artists and stories were influenced by S&K's presentation of action in the GA?  I ask this seriously.  I've read that S&K were innovators in depicting action, and were influential, but I'm not sure who they were influencing.

[Cat-Man_America]

Well, lots of folks like to point to Captain America #1 as an important, groundbreaking book, but my inclination is to place Cap #2 ahead as being more influential due to a quirk of fate.  You see, when Cap #1 came out there was an immediate negative reaction (re: threatened lawsuit) over Cap's shield.  MLJ's publishers claimed Cap's shield design looked like a swipe of the costume worn by their leading costumed superhero, the Shield.  In short order, following a meeting between Timely's publisher Martin Goodman, CA Editor Joe Simon and MLJ's attorneys, a resolution was hammered out, whereby Cap's shield design would change immediately!

In one of the most influential changes to a character design in the GA, Joe Simon & Jack Kirby altered Cap's shield to the now familiar, more weildy Frisbee plate shaped shield that became a formidable throwing weapon.  This would also inspire other GA publishers to design round plate shaped throwing shields, including, ironically enough, MLJ, whose German villain The Hun would use a swastika emblazoned shield as a weapon.  So, my contribution to this Top Ten most influential GA books thread is Captain America #2, a highly influential comic deserving of more attention! 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Cat-Man_America

[Primetime]

45 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Well, lots of folks like to point to Captain America #1 as an important, groundbreaking book, but my inclination is to place Cap #2 ahead as being more influential due to a quirk of fate.  You see, when Cap #1 came out there was an immediate negative reaction (re: threatened lawsuit) over Cap's shield.  MLJ's publishers found Cap's shield design to close to the costume of their leading costumed superhero, who was given the name the Shield.  In short order, after a meeting between Timely's publisher Martin Goodman (with Editor Joe Simon on hand) and MLJ's attorneys, a resolution to the conflict was agreed upon, Cap's shield design would change immediately!

in one of the most influential changes to a character design in the GA, Joe Simon had Jack Kirby change Cap's shield changed to the now familiar, far more weildy Frisbee plate shaped shield that became a formidable throwing weapon.  This would also inspire other GA publishers to employ rounded plate shaped throwing shields, including, ironically enough, MLJ, whose German villain The Hun would use a swastika emblazoned shield as a weapon.  So, my contribution to this Top Ten most influential GA books thread is Captain America #2, a highly influential comic deserving of greater respect! 

 

Agreed. Also, his mask was fully extended down the side of his face for the first time which looked a lot better. 

[Bookery]

Here's an idea, just to be provocative if nothing else.  If we're clearly going to stay with the term "influential" (and are sticking with golden-age), I'm not entirely certain any super-hero book beyond Action #1 should be on the list.  Once Superman is established, all others are simply off-shoots of that genre.  A case might be made for Marvel Comics #1, simply because DC and Marvel, to this day, remain the definitive representatives of that genre.  Crime Does Not Pay #22 introduces the crime genre to comics, but more than that, it's the genre that caught the attention of Wertham, and ultimately led to the Comics Code (hard to get more influential than that).  WDC&S #1 made funny animals into the best-selling single title of the '40s and '50s (though with all of the Disney hardbacks, linen books, Big Little Books, etc., already in print... their move into comics was inevitable and not a big innovative leap for them).  Classics, again.  Multiple multiple printings over decades... unheard of for any other comics of the time.  One could debate the most influential horror comic... though far from the first, if you had to pick one it could be Tales From the Crypt.  Mad #1, definitely... 1st successful parody comic, and designed for a bit older audience than most comics of the day.  Either Famous Funnies or Carnival of Comics, just for getting the whole modern format rolling... otherwise Action #1 would probably have been either a platinum-age style hardbound or a large format such as New Fun.  I'm not sure what would round out the list.  There had been dozens of jungle hero novels and pulp stories pre-comics, not to mention Tarzan and The Phantom in newspaper strips... their move to comics books was expected more than influential.  Same with romance comics... already popular in newspaper strips.  I might add Pep #22, or more likely Archie #1... it introduced the teen-humor genre in a way that seems uniquely comic book.  Anyway... haven't spent a huge amount of time pondering it... just tossing out thoughts as they occur.

 

[Bookery]

On 3/19/2019 at 1:49 PM, adamstrange said:

That occurred only after superheros made the comics market viable.

I don't believe this is true at all. Comics were already successful... DC didn't launch Action because up to then Adventure, More Fun, Famous Funnies, Popular, KIng Comics, etc., were shown to be un-viable!  Comics were doing so well they decided to add another title to their publishing schedule.  Had Superman not existed, the golden-age might have looked quite different... but would have prevailed nonetheless.  Disney and Warner Brothers didn't put out their titles because of super-heroes.  Nor did Classics, or True Comics, or Treasure Chest.  Jungle comics would still have existed.  Most likely Street & Smith would have still brought their flagship titles over to comics.  The Phantom and Mandrake and Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers would still have been published.  Crime and horror comics would still eventually have made the scene.  Because of so many prior influences, even a Batman-like character would probably have come along.  Super-heroes did not become the dominate comic book genre until the 1960s.  Any attempt to rewrite that history is simply inaccurate.

[Jaydogrules]

18 hours ago, sacentaur said:

Some opinions on prior mentions:

-As much as I adore More Fun 14, it would not make my list (for reasons already stated above).

-Mad 1 is a very good choice.

-Pep 22 would seem to be another good call.

-While Action 1 and Detective 27 are obvious, Captain America 1 wouldn’t be on the list (as cool a book as it is).

-New Fun 1 may be worthy of consideration.

-All Star 3 has a solid claim.

-Detective 38 should be a lock.

-All Star 8/Sensation 1/Wonder Woman 1 (take your pick), yup.

-Famous Funnies 1, certainly.

-Marvel Comics 1, big key.

Depending on your world view, DC dominates the field...

 

 

 

Which is why your befuddling claim that Cap 1 doesn't belong on the list makes it easy to pick apart most of your other choices in comparison. 

Mad 1- Why? First satire comic ? So what ? Do people typically associate comics with satire?  or with heroes?

All Star 3- Why? "First hero team up"? Not really. The heroes do not actually associate or interact with each other in the stories inside. Is sitting around "talking" about individual stories actually a "team up"? 

Detective 38- Why ?  First "sidekick"? Big deal.  I thought most people felt Robin ruined the original, dark, adult skewing nature of Batman.  And Robin is more important overall than Cap, Red Skull, Bucky/Winter Soldier combined ?  I think not.

All Star 8-  So Wonder Woman, who was introduced after Cap, sporting much of the same red, white, and blue, makes the list, but not Cap?

Marvel Comics 1- Other than being the first "Marvel Comic", then what ?  A reprinted Subby story? A "Human Torch" that got replaced in the '60's?  With this criteria, why don't you have Tec 1 on your list? It is DC's namesake after all.

 

 

Cap 1- Apart from the classic cover, multiple character introductions, and other points others have mentioned, he is Marvel's only holdover character from the GA, still pretty much the same as when he first hit the scene.  That alone warrants the list, and any list without it is indeed hard to take seriously.

-J.

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Jaydogrules

[ComicConnoisseur]

I am going to look at this question in a different way. I am going to look at it as what if a modern comic book collector today started to look for the most important and historical comics?

In other words somebody who just started to collect GA comics. What would someone who is new at collecting GA comics and a different perspective think? Someone who doesn't really know all the great history. I think they would seek out this top ten list far more than not.

1. Detective Comics #27 (the holy grail for the new modern GA collector).

2. Captain America #1( The heart and soul of the Marvel movies. The Legend ).

3. Action #1 (Nuff said)!

4. All Star #8 (the more popular than ever Wonder Woman first appearance).

5. Batman #1 (First Joker who is considered ultra hip with modern crowd not to mention Catwoman`s first appearance).

6. Pep #22 (First Archie the mega star of the hit Riverdale series).

7. More Fun #73( the dynamic debuts of TV/MOVIE hits Green Arrow and Aquaman).

8. Whiz #2( Shazam the first appearance).

9. Marvel Comics #1(where it all started)

10. Detective # 38 (first Robin).

 

[sacentaur]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

I think this argument has high potential.  But, here's my question:  Which artists and stories were influenced by S&K's presentation of action in the GA?  I ask this seriously.  I've read that S&K were innovators in depicting action, and were influential, but I'm not sure who they were influencing.

Irving Novick changed his style over at MLJ to imitate Kirby, with decidedly mixed results.

[telerites]

1 minute ago, sacentaur said:

Irving Novick changed his style over at MLJ to imitate Kirby, with decidedly mixed results.

I think I read in a CBM interview or article that Murphy Anderson considered S/K as some of influences although I am pretty sure he was most influenced by Lou Fine.  

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

12 hours ago, Joesmith817 said:

I think we need to ask ourselves what made/makes him significant. We know the character outlived all the other bat characters but why? What gave him "staying power"? Why is he significant today and not Johnston McCulley's The Bat, Mary Roberts Rinehart The Bat, The Black Bat, Black Bat 2nd version, or Art Pinajian The Black Bat? The idea of a bat-themed character, hero or villain, wasn't brand new and significant, so what made Batman different? Why did he surpass characters that had influenced his creation like The Shadow, The Phantom, and Zorro? Why did he stick around like Sherlock Holmes, another character that influenced his creation?

I think the main reason was DC never went out of business. They kept Batman in the public eye decade after decade with new comic book stories. It also seems like every decade Batman had a tv series, movie, cartoon, video game or some combination to keep the character fresh that helped introduce Batman to new audiences.

 

[Dr. Love]

16 hours ago, Scrooge said:

Important, yes; significant, maybe not.

Indeed.  While not worthy of the Top 10, it should be noted that romance provided the "bridge loan" to the industry it so desperately needed.  Not by shifting readership from one genre to another, but by bringing in a huge untapped demographic until those numbers could be replicated by young males once again.

[adamstrange]

25 minutes ago, Bookery said:

I don't believe this is true at all. Comics were already successful... DC didn't launch Action because up to then Adventure, More Fun, Famous Funnies, Popular, KIng Comics, etc., were shown to be un-viable!  Comics were doing so well they decided to add another title to their publishing schedule.  Had Superman not existed, the golden-age might have looked quite different... but would have prevailed nonetheless.  Disney and Warner Brothers didn't put out their titles because of super-heroes.  Nor did Classics, or True Comics, or Treasure Chest.  Jungle comics would still have existed.  Most likely Street & Smith would have still brought their flagship titles over to comics.  The Phantom and Mandrake and Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers would still have been published.  Crime and horror comics would still eventually have made the scene.  Because of so many prior influences, even a Batman-like character would probably have come along.  Super-heroes did not become the dominate comic book genre until the 1960s.  Any attempt to rewrite that history is simply inaccurate.

Mjr Nicholson lost his company because he couldn't make a go of things when paying $5 a page for art.

Mickey Mouse Magazine folded after two or three attempts in 1930s.

This is the newsstand when Action 1 appeared in mid 1938.  If you look at what titles appeared in the next couple years they are overwhelmingly superhero and their circulation numbers made everyone take notice of the comics.