Will we ever see another true key comic? 3 3

[Aweandlorder]

1 hour ago, bb8 said:

See, this is the intrinsic problem as I see it. Why create for company if you can own your IP outright? Why save your best creations for something other than you? Now, I think creator-owned comics are the best things on the market currently and have been for a while due to this. The artists and writers are doing their best work for themselves, and rightfully so. However, this limits the IP substantially. Even Walking Dead has a built-in limitation due to its creator-owned status. It won't continue in perpetuity. The mega-keys from each age are generally owned by a company. TMNT is the main exception. There are others. But I think, in general, this is why we don't see these break-out characters as much any more.

I think the reason why that won't happen is because kids don't read comics anymore. Let's face it most of the characters we grew to love became massive hits because of the kids who supported them who then grew to collect them

show me a comic that kids can enjoy reading, and grow into nowadays? Spider-Gwen? How many printed comics does she have? How many tv shows or radio shows does she have? She dwarfs in comparison to the characters of the 40-70s

today's comic book just service adults with very few kids showing interest

most of the "keys" of today won't have the lasting power of the keys of yesterday. Just because of the audience absorbing them. You can never ever compare a superman to a walking dead or Spider-Man to a Batman Who laughs. 

Different times

[Aweandlorder]

I see characters like punisher and wolverine as breakthrough characters in the formation of this new era that we live in. These were characters that were introduced to readers while comics were still mainly catering to a younger audience and that actually started to have a cult following in the 80s, when comic book readers matured.

Punisher and Wolverine are The Godfathers of today's market. 

[october]

47 minutes ago, drotto said:

 

I think that is already happening to a degree with Walking Dead.  I doubt it will ever reach the highs it was at 5 or 6 yes ago again.

Better be careful. WD fanboys lurk everywhere, ready to bring out the long knives whenever someone suggests that title is on a downtrend (which it definitely is). 

[kav]

9 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

For those interested...

Neither Action Comics #1 nor Detective Comics #27 were "keys" for decades after they came out.

Why?

Because there was virtually no one to collect them.

 

This is incredible information!!  I never knew that and I suspect no one else did either!!!

[bb8]

34 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

I think the reason why that won't happen is because kids don't read comics anymore. Let's face it most of the characters we grew to love became massive hits because of the kids who supported them who then grew to collect them

show me a comic that kids can enjoy reading, and grow into nowadays? Spider-Gwen? How many printed comics does she have? How many tv shows or radio shows does she have? She dwarfs in comparison to the characters of the 40-70s

today's comic book just service adults with very few kids showing interest

most of the "keys" of today won't have the lasting power of the keys of yesterday. Just because of the audience absorbing them. You can never ever compare a superman to a walking dead or Spider-Man to a Batman Who laughs. 

Different times

I don't think it's likely, but I do think it's possible for a new character to achieve a high status. But it wouldn't be through comics; I agree with you on that. It would have to be a crossover media, probably film or tv.

[CycleGirl]

34 minutes ago, Aweandlorder said:

I think the reason why that won't happen is because kids don't read comics anymore. Let's face it most of the characters we grew to love became massive hits because of the kids who supported them who then grew to collect them

show me a comic that kids can enjoy reading, and grow into nowadays? Spider-Gwen? How many printed comics does she have? How many tv shows or radio shows does she have? She dwarfs in comparison to the characters of the 40-70s

today's comic book just service adults with very few kids showing interest

most of the "keys" of today won't have the lasting power of the keys of yesterday. Just because of the audience absorbing them. You can never ever compare a superman to a walking dead or Spider-Man to a Batman Who laughs. 

Different times

It's true, but I suppose that people said that children don't read books anymore until Harry Potter came out. Perhaps it just takes a brilliant writer and a company that can market it. Comics are awfully expensive for kids anymore. 

[Aweandlorder]

7 minutes ago, CycleGirl said:

It's true, but I suppose that people said that children don't read books anymore until Harry Potter came out. Perhaps it just takes a brilliant writer and a company that can market it. Comics are awfully expensive for kids anymore. 

Exactly. Harry Potter is a perfect example. But that's a different format

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, drotto said:

All true, but they also became keys when top levels books were selling sever hundred thousand copies. So even if they did not catch on people had at least seen the characters. Now a new character is likely in a book that sells, if the publisher is lucky, 20k copies. So with the books sitting in so few people's hands does it really leave room for them to catch on?

There were fewer, far fewer, than 20,000 copies extant of Action #1 and Detective #27 by 1950. If a new character catches the public's imagination, the number of copies extant of its first appearance doesn't really seem to matter all that much.

Turtles #1 had a print run of 3,250 copies, after all. 

3 hours ago, drotto said:

Plus when new characters catch is because the publisher sees a bump in sales or publicity.  That causes them to put that character in as a guess star, and again would see a sales bump. Then they would say we may have something here.  It even has worked that way more recently with Harely, Deadpool, and even Spider Gwen. So the publisher grew the character based on response and data. Now with sales so low data is very limited, so they have no idea which characters to pursue.

That is how it happened in the past, but it's not how it happens today. Most of the IP in comics is owned by Disney and Warners, two giant entertainment conglomerates. They do not care about comics; they only care about maintaining their IP. Those in charge of the comics divisions have limits to what they can and cannot do with these characters, and very clear directives to use comics as advertising, rather than to tell stories. Is there a Star Wars movie coming out? Great, publish lots of Star Wars books. Avengers? Great, publish that. Tie-in, tie-in, tie-in. What are the kids buying at halloween to wear? Harley? Great, publish that. 

When you add that to the fact that very few creators are willing to hand over potential billion dollar properties for little to nothing, and you have essentially the same characters being recycled over and over again, with very little in creative new work going on at either of the big companies.

And while creator owned work at Image, Dark Horse, IDW, and the like still happens, they end up getting buried in the endless sea of product, and very few have a chance to find a foothold. Long gone are the days of organic growth achieved by word of mouth sales resulting in publishing "bumps."

 

[paul747]

1 hour ago, drotto said:

Great point.   I think this also limits the ability of creator owned properties of becoming mega keys.  The reason the legacy characters are so known, important, and valuable is they are perpetual. With  the creator owned stuff, if the creator decides to stop and the property is not a movie IP or the like, do those eventually fade away.

 

I think that is already happening to a degree with Walking Dead.  I doubt it will ever reach the highs it was at 5 or 6 yes ago again.

I agree. If the creator holds back on their best stuff while working for the big guys. It is almost impossible that their best stuff will ever be main stream .The 2 big company's bring a lot to the table.

 

 

[paul747]

14 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Here's my approach to answering the question. I'd say a "true key" has the following properties:

• A book that isn't artificially scarce, so no incentive variants

• A book that would have been available for pretty much anyone to order in advance at cover price (or a discount to cover price, with services that offer them) or been able to pick up for cover price in a store that ordered them

• Has staying power past the run of whatever creative team made the book/character popular. (This is why I would discount many Image books, even The Walking Dead. I think once Kirkman is done with the book, that book will start to drop in value. It's never going in the dollar bin, but there will be a steady decline. Availability won't be significant, because too many people will be hesitant to part with the book if it's decreasing.)

• Demand exceeds supply by a significant margin.

With that in mind, I think the best bet (and this will probably come as no surprise, considering my avatar) is Valiant books. They're selling a fraction of the numbers that Marvel and DC are, they're publishing a shared universe, and they have movies on the horizon. The problem with books featuring Marvel and DC characters that will be appearing in movies/on TV, is that there's not a ton of room for growth, unless either company decides to push an obscure character (e.g. Guardians of the Galaxy). Everyone who is already collecting comics already knows who the major players from those companies are, and either are or aren't buying the comics. Comic-based movies/television doesn't do a lot to convert viewers into readers. With good movies, Valiant stands to gain readers *amongst people that are already collecting comics* but don't know enough about the characters. Since the 2012 relaunch, there have been a number of new characters introduced, and a number of characters that have been significantly redesigned to essentially be new characters. Many of these books have reported Comichron numbers below 10K, some around 5K. If good movies spurs enough interest in Valiant to raise their readership to even 2% of the market, then that's basically doubling their readership. Back issues are tough to find in many cases (even the non-variants). Add in a new fan base, and any key issue will pretty much disappear, if you can even find one out there now.

If your going to be so specific. Kamala Khan presses all of those buttons.  Here to stay and growing in popularity. The CM17 is not a variant, its a 2nd print with a never seen before 1st appearance cover. even her other "Key" books are not huge print runs. If your talking the last 5 years I don't think there is a more KEY character! 

 

Valiant has way to many incentive variants ! way to many, in fact it turned off a ton of fans and buyers me included. My .  I also do not think that most properties have the power and reputation to keep characters alive and popular like DC and Marvel.

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

10 hours ago, Unstoppablejayd said:

Not sure if you are joking or not but I really think Dazzler could be a huge character if done correctly. With the push for female lead characters, attractive actress and music these would be a lot of key ingredients to success. Add on top her powers are unique and can be visually appealing in movie format. I think it just takes time and someone to get behind it. 

If Groot and now the Cat Goose from Captain Marvel can become big stars overnight than it wouldn't surprise me Dazzler could as well.

Get Margo Robbie or someone of similar stature to play Dazzler in a movie than all of a sudden Dazzler would become cool with mainstream.'

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

17 minutes ago, paul747 said:

If your going to be so specific. Kamala Khan presses all of those buttons.  Here to stay and growing in popularity. The CM17 is not a variant, its a 2nd print with a never seen before 1st appearance cover. even her other "Key" books are not huge print runs. If your talking the last 5 years I don't think there is a more KEY character! 

 

Valiant has way to many incentive variants ! way to many, in fact it turned off a ton of fans and buyers me included. My .  I also do not think that most properties have the power and reputation to keep characters alive and popular like DC and Marvel.

 

Ms Marvel is legit.

Valiant does do a lot of variant. (They've recently cut down on incentives significantly though.) But they're order-alls are still printed in low numbers, if Comichron sales are any indication. A boost to their readership would make finding any edition difficult, especially for key books which tend to be hoarded more in advance by existing collectors.

[ComicConnoisseur]

14 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Here's my approach to answering the question. I'd say a "true key" has the following properties:

• A book that isn't artificially scarce, so no incentive variants

• A book that would have been available for pretty much anyone to order in advance at cover price (or a discount to cover price, with services that offer them) or been able to pick up for cover price in a store that ordered them

• Has staying power past the run of whatever creative team made the book/character popular. (This is why I would discount many Image books, even The Walking Dead. I think once Kirkman is done with the book, that book will start to drop in value. It's never going in the dollar bin, but there will be a steady decline. Availability won't be significant, because too many people will be hesitant to part with the book if it's decreasing.)

• Demand exceeds supply by a significant margin.

With that in mind, I think the best bet (and this will probably come as no surprise, considering my avatar) is Valiant books. They're selling a fraction of the numbers that Marvel and DC are, they're publishing a shared universe, and they have movies on the horizon. The problem with books featuring Marvel and DC characters that will be appearing in movies/on TV, is that there's not a ton of room for growth, unless either company decides to push an obscure character (e.g. Guardians of the Galaxy). Everyone who is already collecting comics already knows who the major players from those companies are, and either are or aren't buying the comics. Comic-based movies/television doesn't do a lot to convert viewers into readers. With good movies, Valiant stands to gain readers *amongst people that are already collecting comics* but don't know enough about the characters. Since the 2012 relaunch, there have been a number of new characters introduced, and a number of characters that have been significantly redesigned to essentially be new characters. Many of these books have reported Comichron numbers below 10K, some around 5K. If good movies spurs enough interest in Valiant to raise their readership to even 2% of the market, then that's basically doubling their readership. Back issues are tough to find in many cases (even the non-variants). Add in a new fan base, and any key issue will pretty much disappear, if you can even find one out there now.

Any good Valiant modern reads you like to recommend? I got the Comixology app, so I am more than willing to try some of them. I really fell behind on modern Valiant comics. Was a big fan in the 1990s when Jim Shooter was their editor. It`s really a shame Valiant can't even get 2% of the current market.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Has someone printed a comic called "Key", yet?

[kav]

7 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Has someone printed a comic called "Key", yet?

These guys tried

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, kav said:

10 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Has someone printed a comic called "Key", yet?

These guys tried

And here is a key Key - the first cover appearance of Tom & Jerry with a toaster:

[drotto]

37 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Ms Marvel is legit.

Valiant does do a lot of variant. (They've recently cut down on incentives significantly though.) But they're order-alls are still printed in low numbers, if Comichron sales are any indication. A boost to their readership would make finding any edition difficult, especially for key books which tend to be hoarded more in advance by existing collectors.

I agree Ms Marvel is somewhat pupular, but her book just got rebooted for the third if not fourth time. Plus, the previous was selling in the 12k to 13k region. The character is around, I am not sure if she is building to be very popular with a larger audience, but acknowledge she has her fans. I think Miles and Spider Gwen seem to have more stature then MM at this moment, and not just because of the movie.

 

Like some many very recent characters then people buying the books is very small, and they need other media to bump up their perception.  But realistically, how does being in one or a few movies translate into sustained key status?

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

23 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Has someone printed a comic called "Key", yet?

There's Locke & Key

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

There's Locke & Key

Too derivative.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

39 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Any good Valiant modern reads you like to recommend? I got the Comixology app, so I am more than willing to try some of them. I really fell behind on modern Valiant comics. Was a big fan in the 1990s when Jim Shooter was their editor. It`s really a shame Valiant can't even get 2% of the current market.

I'm not all caught up on the very latest books, but just in general, since the 2012 relaunch:

• Fred Van Lente's run on Archer & Armstrong is one of my favorite comic runs of all time. (His Timewalker and Generation Zero are good as well, but A&A will always be my favorite)

• Both Ninjak series (Ninjak and Ninja-K) are really good reads.

• Joshua Dysart's Harbinger work (Harbinger, Imperium, and the Life & Death of Toyo Harada, the first issue of which came out yesterday)

• The Secret Weapons mini

• Lots of good stuff by Matt Kindt. I'm enjoying his current run on X-O Manowar.

• Bloodshot and Bloodshot Reborn. (I still have to read Bloodshot Salvation, but Lemire also wrote that so I'm expecting good things)