Warning: Silver Surfer JD unused pg -Buscema & Sinnott on ebay could be misunderstood 0

[Brian Peck]

Someone posted a unpublished page from Judgement Day GN by John Buscema on ebay. It was originally one of the pages he started but left on finished and redrew on a separate sheet. When I originally read the description it sounded the seller had the original unpublished page and a separate page where Joe Sinnott finished inking the page. After emailing the seller I found out he had Joe ink over the original so the finished pieces has John's inks and Joe's inks to finish it. Its a Buy It Now for $11,950.00.

What a stupid thing to do, the value of the page dropped by like 75% after having Joe ink it. Yes Joe is a great inker but he didn't work on the book, inked later by Joe and its the unfinished aspected. I hate when people do that and now that he wants to resell it he himself on the value. Just to warning collectors it isn't what the title says. Sad.

****** Update ******  With the old scan of the partially inked page removed from the updated auction the description is less confusing.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/223468308575?ul_noapp=true

Edited April 7, 2019 by Brian Peck

[Twanj]

Thanks. The Surfer looks off.

[bluechip]

On 4/2/2019 at 2:07 PM, Brian Peck said:

Someone posted a unpublished page from Judgement Day GN by John Buscema on ebay. It was originally one of the pages he started but left on finished and redrew on a separate sheet. When I originally read the description it sounded the seller had the original unpublished page and a separate page where Joe Sinnott finished inking the page. After emailing the seller I found out he had Joe ink over the original so the finished pieces has John's inks and Joe's inks to finish it. Its a Buy It Now for $11,950.00.

What a stupid thing to do, the value of the page dropped by like 75% after having Joe ink it. Yes Joe is a great inker but he didn't work on the book, inked later by Joe and its the unfinished aspected. I hate when people do that and now that he wants to resell it he himself on the value. Just to warning collectors it isn't what the title says. Sad.

 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/223468308575?ul_noapp=true

I listed this and I get that you don't like it, but calling it "misleading" is going too far, and feels very much like you are getting so caught up in wanting to slam this listing that you're crossing the line into being willfully misleading about the listing, and/or me.   

I posted scans of it prior to the finished inks specifically to disclose exactly what was done to the piece!  

Never once did I say the listing was for two pieces.   

And, btw, the listing originally said I didn't know who had partially inked it.   You are the one who told me it was Buscema.  I only put that in the listing because I'd recognized your ID and figured you knew what you were talking about.   Now, you say something different, and appear to be operating out of pure malice, so I figured I better go back and change it.

I felt your messages to me via ebay were gratuitously insulting, but I tried to respond with politeness and respect, acknowledging and accepting your views and then making changes even though they didn't seem really necessary, just to try to go the extra mile to make sure nobody could possibly misunderstand.  

It is just simply nonsensical to believe, let alone suggest, that -- what -- I tried to imply there were two pieces in the auction and then was just hoping the buyer wouldn't realize it when they received only one?! 

Even as you imply that, you quote text from the listing which says "there are two pictures of how it looked, partially inked".   If you don't know it, let me tell you, that the word "looked" is 'PAST TENSE."  Meaning they are pictures of how it looked, IN THE PAST.

I get that you don't like what was done.

I even get if it makes you angry.  

But none of that entitles you to libel me.   

With the very obvious intent of hoping to have a negative financial impact. 

If you want to call me names, that is your prerogative.   And it's generally not actionable.   So have at it.  

But do not try to say or imply or try to create the inference that I made any effort to mislead you or anyone else into thinking there were two items for sale. 

Because it seems very clear to me that you know I did not.  

And that you are behaving out of anger and malice and deliberately misrepresenting the listing, because you, apparently, don't feel confident that simply disrespecting it as it is will achieve your goal. 

You feel, apparently, that not enough people will "hate" and believe it's patently dishonest, on its own, to have Sinnott finish the piece. So you feel, apparently, a need to get people to hate it and conclude it's dishonest in some other way. 

That's wrong.  

I have read some of your posts here, and I'd had a general appreciation for your taste in art.  I respect your views.   I cannot and do not respect, and cannot and will not accept, the way you handled your expression of them, in this matter.

So, I am asking you politely, but firmly, to stop that and to correct the headline and other misleading text of this thread.  

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by bluechip

[Brian Peck]

43 minutes ago, bluechip said:

I listed this and I get that you don't like it, but calling it "misleading" looks very much like you are willfully misrepresenting this piece, and/or me.   

I posted scans of it prior to the finished inks specifically to disclose exactly what was done to the piece!  

Never once did I say the listing was for two pieces.   

And when you asked a question to that effect, I went into the listing and bent over backwards to make clear it was an unfinished piece and to clarify why I'd made the decision to do it that way. 

If you don't like that I had a guy who worked with Buscema finish the piece, that's your prerogative.

Your messages to me via ebay were gratuitously insulting, but I responded with politeness and respect, acknowledging and accepting your views and then making changes which didn't seem necessary, just to try to go the extra mile to make sure nobody could possibly misunderstand.  

It is absurd to suggest that, what, I tried to claim there were two pieces in the auction and then hope the buyer didn't realize when they received only one?! 

Even as you attempt to make people conclude that, or whatever you're hoping to achieve, you posted text from the listing which says "there are two pictures of how it looked, partially inked".   If you don't know it, I will tell you, that the word "looked" is 'PAST TENSE."  Meaning they are pictures of how it looked, IN THE PAST.

I get that you don't like what was done.

That does not entitle you to libel me.   

With the very obvious intent of hoping to have a negative financial impact. 

If you want to call me names, that is your prerogative.   And it's generally not actionable.   So have at it.  

But DO NOT try to say or imply that I made any effort to mislead you or anyone else into thinking there were two items for sale. 

Because it seems very clear that you know I did not.  

And I believe you are deliberately and maliciously misrepresenting it that way. 

So, I am asking you politely, but firmly, to stop that and to correct the headline and other misleading text of this thread.  

 

That was my opinion that the description seemed misleading to me with you showing both the scan of the original unpublished unfinished page and the scan of it inked by Joe. In my description above I did state you responded to me and verified that it was just the final page where Joe inked over John's art. I was just warning people the scans and description could be confusing/misleading and someone could bid on it expecting one thing and find out its something else.

As to my opinion on you having Joe ink on the original I stand by what I said. I think it was stupid and limited the audience you will have when trying to resell it. Many collectors go for the nostalgia of a piece even unfinished pages done during the time of a published work. Once Joe inked it was altered and those collectors would not be interested in the page. You can ask whatever you want for artwork but you might want to do a bit more research so you don't waste time posting a page that will sit on ebay forever. Your comment about John Buscema's recreations going for 5 figures is way off base, pretty much all have been in the 4 figures publicly and privately. Only one that I know of technically reached 5 figures was by $200 and that including Buyer's Premium. I am a big John Buscema collector so I know what I am talking about in terms of market.

The title "Silver Surfer Judgment Day unused pg -Buscema & Sinnott -- Galactus! Mephisto!" I still feel is misleading. Joe Sinnott NEVER worked on Judgment Day Graphic Novel. It should be "Pin-up of Galactus, Mephisto and Silver Surfer by John Buscema and Joe Sinnott". 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Brian Peck

[bluechip]

12 minutes ago, Brian Peck said:

That was my opinion that the description seemed misleading to me with you showing both the scan of the original unpublished unfinished page and the scan of it inked by Joe. In my description above I did state you responded to me and verified that it was just the final page where Joe inked over John's art. I was just warning people the scans and description could be confusing/misleading and someone could bid on it expecting one thing and find out its something else.

As to my opinion on you having Joe ink on the original I stand by what I said. I think it was stupid and limited the audience you will have when trying to resell it. Many collectors go for the nostalgia of a piece even unfinished pages done during the time of a published work. Once Joe inked it was altered and those collectors would not be interested in the page. You can ask whatever you want for artwork but you might want to do a bit more research so you don't waste time posting a page that will sit on ebay forever. Your comment about John Buscema's recreations going for 5 figures is way off base, pretty much all have been in the 4 figures publicly and privately. Only one that I know of technically reached 5 figures was by $200 and that including Buyer's Premium. I am a big John Buscema collector so I know what I am talking about in terms of market.

 

 

My comment about John Buscema's recreations going for 5 figures is based entirely on research I did before making the listing.  If you say they've gone in four figures and privately, then I have no reason to question you.  And I will be happy to alter the listing.   But, there again, you have said something that is misleading either carelessly or willfully.  Because the research I refer to was the information I found in two minutes on the Heritage Auction site!   A site I am sure you're aware of.  If you go there now you will see recent sales of recreated covers in five figures!   

I ask you again to STOP trying to accuse me of nefarious deeds when what you really want to do is repeat how "stupid" it was to let Sinnott finish it, and to dissuade people from buying it. 

Call names and dissuade potential buyers all you want. 

But please do not make false accusations either directly or by implication, in order to achieve your goals.

Attacking the piece is your prerogative but doing it in this way was wrong.   And I believe you know it.  Or you would if you thought about it objectively

Edited April 7, 2019 by bluechip
correction

[Brian Peck]

11 minutes ago, bluechip said:

My comment about John Buscema's recreations going for 5 figures is based entirely on research I did before making the listing.  If you say they've gone in four figures and privately, then I have no reason to question you.  And I will be happy to alter the listing.   But, there again, you have said something that is misleading either carelessly or willfully.  Because the research I refer to was the information I found in two minutes on the Heritage Auction site!   A site I am sure you're aware of.  If you go there now you will see recent sales of recreated covers in five figures!   

I ask you again to STOP trying to accuse me of nefarious deeds when what you really want to do is repeat how "stupid" it was to let Sinnott finish it, and to dissuade people from buying it.  Call names and dissuade all you want.  But please do not make false accusations either directly or by implication, in order to achieve your goals.

 

if you had bothered to read what you quoted you will see both times on this thread I stated "you responded to me and verified that it was just the final page where Joe inked over John's art."  I was just warning people the scans and description could be confusing/misleading and someone could bid on it expecting one thing and find out its something else. 
As for the prices of Buscema recreations, I also did a quick search on Heritage and all but two were in the 4 figures (under $10K) originally I didn't see one for $10,700 because it was listed under "re-creation" . On Heritage all 17 were under $10K (two between 10K-11K) so I don't know what you were looking at. Unless you counted wrong.

 

 

 

 

[bluechip]

14 minutes ago, Brian Peck said:

if you had bothered to read what you quoted you will see both times on this thread I stated "you responded to me and verified that it was just the final page where Joe inked over John's art."  I was just warning people the scans and description could be confusing/misleading and someone could bid on it expecting one thing and find out its something else. 
As for the prices of Buscema recreations, I also did a quick search on Heritage and all but two were in the 4 figures (under $10K) originally I didn't see one for $10,700 because it was listed under "re-creation" . On Heritage all 17 were under $10K (two between 10K-11K) so I don't know what you were looking at. Unless you counted wrong.

 

 

 

 

I saw two sales in 2018 for full recreation covers and they were both over 10K.   I didn't "count" them all and should not be expected to because they're older.   If you want to sell me artwork by counting every sale no matter how far back they go and then averaging the price out, then there's a lot of business we can do.  Again, you're using bad logic to imply bad faith in the description when what you really want is for people to feel it's an abomination that I had Sinnott ink the unfinished work, but you clearly don't believe enough people will feel the same way, so you add in bad faith aspersions that aren't correct, or fair, or proper.  Just, stop it.  Please.

[vodou]

Ruined. It's too bad Joe Sinnott didn't take the high ground and refuse to ink it. Maybe the commissioner didn't make Joe aware of the piece's place in history. The only thing missing now is a massive Sharpie Stan Lee signature, blue of course but Toddler red is cool too, right through the middle.

A nice shiny new pinned thread with all the before and after images we can collectively muster of ruined pieces (by curation standards) would be awesome. Start with this one and add those ridiculously signed abominations from the HA thread and go from there. If somebody seeing that thread and thinking twice before hitting the next convention saved even one piece from this silliness (the mildest word in my vocabulary for this subject), it would be worth it. Unfortunately, I won't be able to add any images out of my own collection because...I never buy such atrocities. Ever.

[bocaratondefense]

You and Joe should have left the pencils the way you found them. 

[bluechip]

1 hour ago, bocaratondefense said:

You and Joe should have left the pencils the way you found them. 

Fair enough.   

I could point out there are no published pages from the same book on which Buscema's pencils were left the way they were found.   They were all inked by someone else.   

But I get that it might make no difference to you and you would've preferred this remain uninked regardless of anything else.  You can even be angry about it, if you like.   If so I would respect that, too.  Most of all I respect -- and appreciate -- that you kept your complaint to that.

[The Voord]

I agree with most that having this unfinished page inked was not a wise move.  Sinnott is rightly regarded as a terrific inker, yet the way he's inked the Surfer's face looks off to me.  Might have been a better option to have asked Sinnott to ink a separate version to keep the unfinished original artwork intact, but what's done is done.  The BIN price-tag seems horrendous to me and I'm struggling to see how having an interesting (unfinished) page of artwork altered can justify the ask-price?  If anything, what's been done here is more likely to have a negative impact on value.  Would be very surprised to learn that this one finds a buyer anytime soon.

Not angry, just saddened.

One to be filed under, "It seemed like a good idea at the time".

Edited April 8, 2019 by The Voord

[bluechip]

On 4/8/2019 at 12:44 AM, The Voord said:

I agree with most that having this unfinished page inked was not a wise move.  Sinnott is rightly regarded as a terrific inker, yet the way he's inked the Surfer's face looks off to me.  Might have been a better option to have asked Sinnott to ink a separate version to keep the unfinished original artwork intact, but what's done is done.  The BIN price-tag seems horrendous to me and I'm struggling to see how having an interesting (unfinished) page of artwork altered can justify the ask-price?  If anything, what's been done here is more likely to have a negative impact on value.  Would be very surprised to learn that this one finds a buyer anytime soon.

Not angry, just saddened.

One to be filed under, "It seemed like a good idea at the time".

Ok, point made.   I think.   Just so we're clear, I'm guessing you would tell me not to have this Buscema piece colored?   

[Brian Peck]

35 minutes ago, bluechip said:

Ok, point made.   I think.   Just so we're clear, I'm guessing you would tell me not to have this Buscema piece colored?   

Nope. Someone had a number of Byrne Uncanny X-Men pages coloured back in the 80s. Another thing that would severely shrink the pool of buyers. Most wouldn't even consider buying or bidding on it.

 

[bluechip]

2 hours ago, Brian Peck said:

Nope. Someone had a number of Byrne Uncanny X-Men pages coloured back in the 80s. Another thing that would severely shrink the pool of buyers. Most wouldn't even consider buying or bidding on it.

 

Evidently my sarcasm was not obvious enough.

[The Voord]

16 hours ago, bluechip said:

Ok, point made.   I think.   Just so we're clear, I'm guessing you would tell me not to have this Buscema piece colored?   

You could use it to line the bottom of your budgie's cage?  Maybe he'd like the bright colours if you wanted to go that route . . . 

[First Upgrade]

On 4/10/2019 at 5:05 PM, bluechip said:

Just so we're clear, I'm guessing you would tell me not to have this Buscema piece colored?   

Wrong again...

Just so we're clear, going forward, as your attorney, I am telling you to cut this Buscema piece into three sections. The first being just the top panel with the right hand side downward arrow included. The second being the middle panel. And the third being the bottom panel.

It is in your best financial interest to then have each cut panel hand colored by anyone. Preferably Steve Oliff, Lynn Varley, Frank Miller, Bob Layton, or even Barry Smith if possible. Have each colorist prominently sign the panel which they colored somewhere in the art area with a Sharpie(kindly allow them the option of selecting the ink color).

This next step is crucial...list each finished panel separately in a no reserve auction approximately four months apart. Place the first with eBay, the second with Comic Link, and the third with Heritage Auctions. Ensure that you understand exactly how much each panel is worth and enlist your friends/family to bid up the panels to that dollar amount. 

After you win each auction, you can either have them posted for sale on ComicConnect or on your very own original comic art dealer website. Regardless of platform, the NEW asking price for each panel must be marked up approximately 2-3X what you respectively paid to win each one back. Be certain to offer timed payments as well as offering to accept trade credit towards any panel or piece. After all, this is only fair.

Edited April 11, 2019 by First Upgrade
Spelling, again

[faust1104]

Welcome to the kindergarten.  

It is bluchip's piece and if he paid Joe Sinnott to ink it his decision.

Then again if I were the owner I would not have altered the piece.  Maybe I would have gotten myself a high quality printout for Joe to ink but kept the original as it is.

But then to each his own... 

 

 

[The Voord]

I reckon the Mona Lisa needs to be altered . . .

[I am not Glenda]

Iv followed this post from the start & I do not know either party but to be honest the initial post had some sarcastic undertones being a retired teacher" stupid " was not a word I would ever recommend using. I looked at the initial listing and unless you're really not good at reading comprehension the title & text seemed quite clear to me about what the item was, is and # of items included so I didn't feel it was misleading or dishonest. I am not taking sides here ( no dog in the game)  but IMHO this site should be about helping each other when something like this comes up OA, CMV, inkers A vs inker B is a lot to take in and understand as its nothing like the comic market. Making anyone feel awful about what seems like pretty big financial goof kinda sucks. I am sure many veteran members made some big mistakes along the way.

[stinkininkin]

1 hour ago, Frank Mozz said:

Iv followed this post from the start & I do not know either party but to be honest the initial post had some sarcastic undertones being a retired teacher" stupid " was not a word I would ever recommend using. I looked at the initial listing and unless you're really not good at reading comprehension the title & text seemed quite clear to me about what the item was, is and # of items included so I didn't feel it was misleading or dishonest. I am not taking sides here ( no dog in the game)  but IMHO this site should be about helping each other when something like this comes up OA, CMV, inkers A vs inker B is a lot to take in and understand as its nothing like the comic market. Making anyone feel awful about what seems like pretty big financial goof kinda sucks. I am sure many veteran members made some big mistakes along the way.

I'm not interested in taking sides either.  I would not have had the original inked myself.  That said, and as big a John Buscema fan as I am, I don't see it as a big tragedy.  It's simply not a significant enough piece for me to lose any sleep over.  At least the choice of inker was appropriate, regardless on what you think of the final results.  I realize there's a bit of slippery slope here, as in who decides when or if it is appropriate to have a revered (and deceased) artists work inked?  Never?  Under any circumstances?  Fine, and like I said, I wouldn't have done it myself.  But at the end of the day, I honestly don't care that someone else did.