Best Con for Buying Actual Comic Books? 3 3

[blazingbob]

1 hour ago, 1Cool said:

I thought about this post some yesterday and I was hoping a discussion would develop but nothing so far.  Don't you think having the let's just call them full time buyers at a Con is a good thing?  Are you saying the big buyers who can pull off a free badge (not as easy as some people would believe) are a detriment to a Con's success because they don't have the ability, inventory or desire to set up a booth?  Having increase competition to buy the preshow goodies is I'm sure bothersome to you and the few other dealers who can set up and go shopping at the same time but do you think the extra competition makes the average con dealer reluctant to set up?

When there are complaints about "empty booths" from "full time buyers" who are also "full time sellers" they are relying on the exhibitors who paid to setup to "subsidize" their business model.  Now they may argue that they are "buying" from dealers but dealers make money "buying and selling" at conventions.  That's what I paid the booth fees for and how I judge a show.  Wizard Chicago has a lot of "Wanna Be Buyers/Sellers" running around before the show opens.  I'm sure if you counted up those "Workers" it would add up to a lot more money then you think.  If just 3-4 of those "Full time buyers" who are also "full time sellers" had bought a booth then $5K goes to the promoter.  Promoters don't make as much money as you think so $5-10K makes a big difference to the bottom line.  Those "full time buyers/sellers" as you call them don't even buy a 4 day badge which could translate into $$$$ to the promoter.  

A decision to setup at a major show is not just the "booth cost".  It can be hotels and the strength of the inventory you have to sell at the show.  You also have to question your business model.  It the model is high prices,  no discounting,  no selling to dealers and you have very limited wall books you probably won't do well at a multi day show with more expensive booth costs.  Some dealers frankly just think "small" and want to pay $50-$150 for a one day booth where if they do $1500 its a good day.  For me,  I can stay home behind the computer drinking coffee and make that.  Which is why I don't do 1 day shows which equals 4 load in and load outs of the mini van.  If I am no longer setting up at a multi day show that I've done before it is because the numbers were not good.  My gauge is 10X expenses for sales.  I grade shows A - F based on Buying, Selling, Customer traffic, Customer interaction, Wall requests, box stock purchases, etc

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by blazingbob

[1Cool]

10 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

When there are complaints about "empty booths" from "full time buyers" who are also "full time sellers" they are relying on the exhibitors who paid to setup to "subsidize" their business model.  Now they may argue that they are "buying" from dealers but dealers make money "buying and selling" at conventions.  That's what I paid the booth fees for and how I judge a show.  Wizard Chicago has a lot of "Wanna Be Buyers/Sellers" running around before the show opens.  I'm sure if you counted up those "Workers" it would add up to a lot more money then you think. 

A decision to setup at a major show is not just the "booth cost".  It can be hotels and the strength of the inventory you have to sell at the show.  You also have to question your business model.  It the model is high prices,  no discounting,  no selling to dealers and you have very limited wall books you probably won't do well at a multi day show with more expensive booth costs.  Some dealers frankly just think "small" and want to pay $50-$150 for a one day booth where if they do $1500 its a good day.  For me,  I can stay home behind the computer drinking coffee and make that.  Which is why I don't do 1 day shows which equals 4 load in and load outs of the mini van.  If I am no longer setting up at a multi day show that I've done before it is because the numbers were not good.  My gauge is 10X expenses for sales.  I grade shows A - F based on Buying, Selling, Customer traffic, Customer interaction, Wall requests, box stock purchases, etc

 

Good info.  But if you assume the buyers grabbed unused dealer badges which the promoters give away as part of the booth fee then the only thing that the big buyers are doing is maybe taking money out of the promoters pockets since the buyers would have to buy tickets if they didn't get free passes.  There was a ton of wanna be buyers/sellers running around Wizard Chicago last time I went 5 years ago and the place was hopping. 

I think Roy was lamenting was the lack of the newbie small time dealers who use to set up at Wizard Chicago and I'm not sure the buyers had anything to do with scaring those guys away.  Just curious - what grade did you give Wizard World last year?

[blazingbob]

Unused Dealer badges are not "FREE".  I pay for those as part of the booth cost.  If small time dealers aren't doing the shows either the Booth sales team aren't contacting them,  it is too much of a hassle for them to do the show or they have done the show and didn't do well at it.  

Wizard was a pretty good show last year.  

[WoWitHurts]

Definitely NOT St. Louis Wizard!  I only counted 3 booths primarily selling comics. There were a couple of boxes here and there but what a dismal show. I went home empty handed at C2E2 this year too. There were plenty of books just not what I was looking for and when I found something I would buy it was always more than what I would spend on it. I think I will just mostly buy at auctions from now on. I like C2E2 as a show though. CGC "Express" drop off was a joke.

[1Cool]

6 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Unused Dealer badges are not "FREE".  I pay for those as part of the booth cost.  If small time dealers aren't doing the shows either the Booth sales team aren't contacting them,  it is too much of a hassle for them to do the show or they have done the show and didn't do well at it.  

Wizard was a pretty good show last year.  

If you get 4 badges for a Con and only need 3 for yourself and your two workers (example only) then the 4th badge is extra and has no inherent use especially if the promoter is against you selling the badge.  The 4 badges are part of the cost of the booth but unused badges have no benefit so why not give it to a big buyer or a friend - especially if you are a dealer who doesn't have the time to go around buying books before a Con.  I get being bitter about the extra competition but I also understand why dealers give away extra badges rather then have them go to waste.

Glad to hear Wizard Chicago was good to you last year.  I'm not surprised since you run a big booth(s) with a ton of killer keys which seem to have no ceiling in price right now.  I only heard negatives about it after the Con but most of the people reporting were buyers. 

[blazingbob]

17 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

If you get 4 badges for a Con and only need 3 for yourself and your two workers (example only) then the 4th badge is extra and has no inherent use especially if the promoter is against you selling the badge.  The 4 badges are part of the cost of the booth but unused badges have no benefit so why not give it to a big buyer or a friend - especially if you are a dealer who doesn't have the time to go around buying books before a Con.  I get being bitter about the extra competition but I also understand why dealers give away extra badges rather then have them go to waste.

Glad to hear Wizard Chicago was good to you last year.  I'm not surprised since you run a big booth(s) with a ton of killer keys which seem to have no ceiling in price right now.  I only heard negatives about it after the Con but most of the people reporting were buyers. 

Big buyer or competing dealer?  If the big buyer is a upgrader then he is a dealer.  If the big buyer is buying books for resale he is a dealer.  If a collector is buying books to sell to make money so that he can buy books for his collection he is a DEALER.  If I am giving a badge to any of those "Big buyers/competing dealers then I am creating my own competition.  If I do happen to give a badge to a person who buys and sells books I generally have a business relationship with that person. 

As far as my "big booth" with killer keys with no ceiling goes I did start a lot smaller.  I used to work for Vinny when he was Vincent's collectibles.  I started with 1-2 boxes of books.  I poured profits back into more inventory over time.  I learned by partnering and doing shows.  Always learning.  Never assume I know everything.  For every complainer about a show I'm sure there were 10 that did very well.  Not everybody posts on the boards about shows and frankly if the show were really good why would I invite more dealers to do it?  Have you ever considered that maybe some people are diverting attention away from a show with misinformation?

Edited April 15, 2019 by blazingbob

[blazingbob]

28 minutes ago, WoWitHurts said:

Definitely NOT St. Louis Wizard!  I only counted 3 booths primarily selling comics. There were a couple of boxes here and there but what a dismal show. I went home empty handed at C2E2 this year too. There were plenty of books just not what I was looking for and when I found something I would buy it was always more than what I would spend on it. I think I will just mostly buy at auctions from now on. I like C2E2 as a show though. CGC "Express" drop off was a joke.

Can I ask what about CGC express drop off was a joke?  Very curious since I've been discussing this with them for awhile now.  If you want to pm me that would be fine.  

[1Cool]

13 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Big buyer or competing dealer?  If the big buyer is a upgrader then he is a dealer.  If the big buyer is buying books for resale he is a dealer.  If a collector is buying books to sell to make money so that he can buy books for his collection he is a DEALER.  If I am giving a badge to any of those "Big buyers/competing dealers then I am creating my own competition.  If I do happen to give a badge to a person who buys and sells books I generally have a business relationship with that person. 

As far as my "big booth" with killer keys with no ceiling goes I did start a lot smaller.  I used to work for Vinny when he was Vincent's collectibles.  I started with 1-2 boxes of books.  I poured profits back into more inventory over time.  I learned by partnering and doing shows.  Always learning.  Never assume I know everything.  For every complainer about a show I'm sure there were 10 that did very well.  Not everybody posts on the boards about shows and frankly if the show were really good why would I invite more dealers to do it?  Have you ever considered that maybe some people are diverting attention away from a show with misinformation?

It is possible but Wizard Chicago has always been a Con that was discussed at length and the discussion was always how great a Con it was from both a dealer and buyers stand point.  The knowledge was not kept near to the chest since it was THE comic con (San Diego but for sellers and buyers and not entertainment promos).  Last year was the first time the vibe I got was a huge yawn.  The number of people blowing out books was down - the number of smaller fly by night guys were down - the number of books that could be pressed and graded were down.  No more onsite grading.  The fact that it wasn't immediately brought up when people were discussing the go to comic con for buying books is telling.  My impression is its quickly morphed into yet another big Con dominated by big dealers selling key books to the masses.  I didn't go so I could be wrong but that is the impression I got and why I'm not planning on going back anytime soon.

[blazingbob]

Other Cons have taken over as the better buyer/seller shows,  C2E2,  Baltimore come to mind.  Wizard Chicago has not been "The show" for awhile. 

Buying books at conventions hasn't been a strong business model for awhile so if you are depending on shows for your inventory maybe you need to rethink that business model. 

How long do you think that sellers are going to continue to leave money on the table?  More and more sellers press their inventory.  Do you really think that dealers love watching upgraders make thousands more on a book then they do?    

Onsite grading was due to Reed making CGC a better offer.  That's sometimes how business works.  

[WoWitHurts]

2 hours ago, blazingbob said:

Can I ask what about CGC express drop off was a joke?  Very curious since I've been discussing this with them for awhile now.  If you want to pm me that would be fine.  

I don't mind putting them on blast. I only go to C2E2 for one day and had a box of 25 books to drop off for pre- screen. All paper work already created only needed to do the hand off.  I show up to a long line (1030am), then found out that THAT line was to sign up for a time to actually get in the second line to actually drop stuff off. they would text you when you could get in the second line. I left the show somewhere around 5ish and while heading home on i94 I get the text to get in the second line. so I missed it and would have just mailed them in if I knew it was such a hassle. They shouldn't even offer this service if they can't deliver. It just seems dumb. Last year was a long line but I just thought it would be better this year. I won't try that again.

[WoWitHurts]

2 hours ago, 1Cool said:

My impression is its quickly morphed into yet another big Con dominated by big dealers selling key books to the masses

I find it is all about keys and I don't doubt that drives what dealers bring. I am a run collector albeit only two titles so my collecting habit has a narrow focus but I find it difficult to find what I am looking for.

[blazingbob]

23 minutes ago, WoWitHurts said:

I find it is all about keys and I don't doubt that drives what dealers bring. I am a run collector albeit only two titles so my collecting habit has a narrow focus but I find it difficult to find what I am looking for.

If I may ask what two runs are you looking for and do you take the time to email the dealers you shop with to bring what you need to a show?

No matter how far in advance I post my show schedule there is always somebody that asks for books that are on my website.  I cannot bring 35K books to the show

If you ask to see them at a show then I can pull them or put them in a show box so that they are there.

[WoWitHurts]

6 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

If I may ask what two runs are you looking for and do you take the time to email the dealers you shop with to bring what you need to a show?

No matter how far in advance I post my show schedule there is always somebody that asks for books that are on my website.  I cannot bring 35K books to the show

If you ask to see them at a show then I can pull them or put them in a show box so that they are there.

I primarily look for Iron Man 1-100 9.6 White pages 101-332  9.8 White pages. And ASM 100-199 9.6 white pages. I realize how narrow this focus is and I understand why a dealer may not have these kind of books. I have in the past contacted dealers about shows beforehand but admittedly I am not very consistent. Either Iron Man is super HOT and that's why I can't find them or it is so dismal that dealers don't bring them. Because my focus is so narrow I am in tune on what these books are running and sometimes the prices are just too inflated. I am ok with haggling but sometimes not so much. I get what your saying about not bringing everything.

[jsilverjanet]

5 hours ago, blazingbob said:

For every complainer about a show I'm sure there were 10 that did very well. 

I always felt that the people who complain about Wizard Chicago are the people buying (to sell mainly) not the actual dealers

4 hours ago, 1Cool said:

Last year was the first time the vibe I got was a huge yawn.  The number of people blowing out books was down - the number of smaller fly by night guys were down - the number of books that could be pressed and graded were down. 

I don't think dealers feel the show is bad (profit wise) or at least I haven't heard that directly. The amount of people buying before the show has certainly increased. Where I used to see about 20-30 (people that I know), I now see 50-60 people. Less deals to find for sure, however everyone's definition of what makes a great con is different. Personally for me, Wizard last year was great. I spent 2x more than I had done before. I certainly spent a lot more than what I had intended. 

[1Cool]

4 hours ago, WoWitHurts said:

I primarily look for Iron Man 1-100 9.6 White pages 101-332  9.8 White pages. And ASM 100-199 9.6 white pages. I realize how narrow this focus is and I understand why a dealer may not have these kind of books. I have in the past contacted dealers about shows beforehand but admittedly I am not very consistent. Either Iron Man is super HOT and that's why I can't find them or it is so dismal that dealers don't bring them. Because my focus is so narrow I am in tune on what these books are running and sometimes the prices are just too inflated. I am ok with haggling but sometimes not so much. I get what your saying about not bringing everything.

You buying already graded copies?  Some of those probably have very few copies in the market as a whole since Iron Man 215 isn’t really worth getting graded.  Con dealers are probably going to not clog up their booth with a lot of filler slabs.  I’m sure you do very well in the various online auctions.

[1Cool]

2 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

I always felt that the people who complain about Wizard Chicago are the people buying (to sell mainly) not the actual dealers

I don't think dealers feel the show is bad (profit wise) or at least I haven't heard that directly. The amount of people buying before the show has certainly increased. Where I used to see about 20-30 (people that I know), I now see 50-60 people. Less deals to find for sure, however everyone's definition of what makes a great con is different. Personally for me, Wizard last year was great. I spent 2x more than I had done before. I certainly spent a lot more than what I had intended. 

I’m sure it helped that you are a local and can get to the Con during load in time and grab the early, early bird deals.  It’s so saturated that you almost have to hang out at the dealers home and help them load up the van to get first shot at books now adays.

[jsilverjanet]

13 hours ago, 1Cool said:

I’m sure it helped that you are a local and can get to the Con during load in time and grab the early, early bird deals.  It’s so saturated that you almost have to hang out at the dealers home and help them load up the van to get first shot at books now adays.

I was in after set up. I was only on the floor maybe a few hours before the show opened

[WoWitHurts]

13 hours ago, 1Cool said:

You buying already graded copies?  Some of those probably have very few copies in the market as a whole since Iron Man 215 isn’t really worth getting graded.  Con dealers are probably going to not clog up their booth with a lot of filler slabs.  I’m sure you do very well in the various online auctions.

I also buy HG raw when I find them.

[Comicshrine]

On 4/15/2019 at 3:17 PM, blazingbob said:

When there are complaints about "empty booths" from "full time buyers" who are also "full time sellers" they are relying on the exhibitors who paid to setup to "subsidize" their business model.  Now they may argue that they are "buying" from dealers but dealers make money "buying and selling" at conventions.  That's what I paid the booth fees for and how I judge a show.  Wizard Chicago has a lot of "Wanna Be Buyers/Sellers" running around before the show opens.  I'm sure if you counted up those "Workers" it would add up to a lot more money then you think.  If just 3-4 of those "Full time buyers" who are also "full time sellers" had bought a booth then $5K goes to the promoter.  Promoters don't make as much money as you think so $5-10K makes a big difference to the bottom line.  Those "full time buyers/sellers" as you call them don't even buy a 4 day badge which could translate into $$$$ to the promoter.  

A decision to setup at a major show is not just the "booth cost".  It can be hotels and the strength of the inventory you have to sell at the show.  You also have to question your business model.  It the model is high prices,  no discounting,  no selling to dealers and you have very limited wall books you probably won't do well at a multi day show with more expensive booth costs.  Some dealers frankly just think "small" and want to pay $50-$150 for a one day booth where if they do $1500 its a good day.  For me,  I can stay home behind the computer drinking coffee and make that.  Which is why I don't do 1 day shows which equals 4 load in and load outs of the mini van.  If I am no longer setting up at a multi day show that I've done before it is because the numbers were not good.  My gauge is 10X expenses for sales.  I grade shows A - F based on Buying, Selling, Customer traffic, Customer interaction, Wall requests, box stock purchases, etc

 

Hi Bob, which shows do you grade A? I want to come over to a show again this year, Theo. 

[blazingbob]

8 minutes ago, Comicshrine said:

Hi Bob, which shows do you grade A? I want to come over to a show again this year, Theo. 

For me A shows are San Diego, New York Comic Con, Baltimore, C2E2.

I've had A type shows at other conventions but not consistently.