role of CGC witnesses at conventions? 0

[zzewt]

I'm new to the idea of using a CGC witness for Signature Series submissions.

I attended WonderCon Anaheim 2019 (3/29 - 3/31) recently and was informed a CGC witness would be assigned to the ComicSketchArt booth with Greg Capullo, Tom King, and Scott Snyder. If you look at the pictures, the CGC witness is probably 10-15 feet away from the table, so I question if the witness is actually observing the signing. Is this normal for witnessed signatures? How should signatures be observed for CGC?

[RadiantGraphix]

I think you're missing the point, but I understand your concern.  The witness is there to make sure that the signatures aren't being forged, but in this type of set-up it could be a little too easy for an unscrupulous person to slip a book or two into their stack that wasn't actually signed at that exact moment.  The witness just needs to be able to watch you walk directly from the signature areas with the books you just had signed and have them handed to them.  He doesn't have to physically witness each signature as it's done, just that the chain of custody is strictly maintained and that the signatures you're handing of are reasonably assured to have just been done right then and there.  I think they way you're implying that it should be done would cause the slowdown in the line and effect everyone's bottom line too greatly. 

This is the method I've seen done for the last 5-6 years where the CGC staff member is right nearby so that people who aren't getting things graded (90%+) can just walk away, unencumbered and those who want the grading service have space to hand things off.

[DougC]

When moving sketch covers (generally jam books) from one artist to another the above post pretty much covers the process (chain of custody). I am sure if I was an unscrupulous person I could slide in a couple previously signed books, maybe they wouldn't notice or maybe they would and I would loose all CGC privileges.

 

My overall thoughts on the OP are the same as when people come up and tell me when someone is doing something wrong at work.

My first question is always "Are you telling me this because they are actually doing something out of standard or are you just trying to get someone in trouble"?

 

[revat]

the process is sometimes not as perfect as it should be.  If you have a concern, you should bring it up with CGC.  If enough people report their concerns, improvements can be made to the process.

[Nicholas Hughes]

Are there any of you guys who may know of any witnesses that may live in the NYC or Jersey area. Neil Gaiman will be in the New Jersey area next month and I'm trying to see him

[masterlogan2000]

OP, you're also making an assumption that there are CGC signings taking place right at the moment that the witness is standing 15 feet away.

If, based on your two photos, you can prove that a CGC signing is happening WITHOUT the presence of a CGC witness AND those books were still successfully submitted to the Signature Series program, then I think you may have a legitimate concern.  However, I don't believe those two photos are enough to paint that picture.

Forgive me for my skepticism (with this being your lone post on these boards) about you not trying to rock the boat a bit... but as others have said, if you have a concern, you should bring it up with CGC.  Instead of snapping a pic, you could have engaged the witness with this exact question or even approached the CGC booth.

[ExNihilo]

Not 100% sure how it works.  I know ComicSketchArt (Doug) is a facilitator, but considering they represent so many creators, is he also certified by CGC as a witness?  If that is the case, then it's likely that's another set of eyes at the table actually witnessing the signatures.

[Turtle]

18 hours ago, Nicholas Hughes said:

Are there any of you guys who may know of any witnesses that may live in the NYC or Jersey area. Neil Gaiman will be in the New Jersey area next month and I'm trying to see him

There are a few.  I could potentially do it as I'm close to the PA/NJ border. 

However, it's important to note that for a witness to be authorized for an event, there is an expected minimum number of submissions CGC requires.  If you think you can muster the interest, CGC would likely approve a witness for the event.

It's also important to know what the setting is.  If the setting is a convention or other type of signing it's one thing, but it can be entirely different if it's a lecture, concert, or premiere where a formal signing is not planned.  These types of events are much tougher to get CGC authorization for. 

[RadiantGraphix]

14 hours ago, Turtle said:

There are a few.  I could potentially do it as I'm close to the PA/NJ border. 

However, it's important to note that for a witness to be authorized for an event, there is an expected minimum number of submissions CGC requires.  If you think you can muster the interest, CGC would likely approve a witness for the event.

It's also important to know what the setting is.  If the setting is a convention or other type of signing it's one thing, but it can be entirely different if it's a lecture, concert, or premiere where a formal signing is not planned.  These types of events are much tougher to get CGC authorization for. 

@Nicholas Hughes Additionally, Neil and his handlers are a bit tight on the items he will sign at non-comic events. If he's doing a book tour or TV related event it's highly likely that he will NOT sign comics for people, only items related to his discussion or whatever book he's peddling at the moment.  So, paying for a witness and getting CGC to approve the witness is much more difficult. 

[Dmac538]

Regarding the OP  question, as a witness you must be at the table to witness the signature, but not on top of the signee. It is customary to stand back, as the person getting books may converse with the artist or creator, and give them their personal time. Sometimes creators will be funny, like Brian Azzarello will say "Are you watching me sign this?". Most creators will be are aware of CGC Witnesses as they will see us at various shows and become familiar with us. ComicSkletchArt also has their own witness who may witness a signing, but books are submitted through them.

[zzewt]

Thank you for the replies.

I think the main thing is (being new to the use of CGC Signature Series witnesses), I'd like to see the process improved:

• I think it would be good if all signatures were "observed," especially if CGC is stating, "at comic cons or other authorized events, a CGC Witness or Facilitator will accompany the Collector to observe the signature(s)" (https://www.cgccomics.com/signature-series/).
• When I have seen CGC witnesses accompany someone to visit an artist for a signature (or used one myself), I was left with a good impression. However, seeing how this one table was handling CGC signatures made me wonder if others had similar experiences elsewhere. 
• When I brought this issue up to a CGC representative during the show, I was told witnesses are assigned to the table, but the table may not be allowing CGC witnesses to be in that close proximity (don't remember the exact words). This person did not seem overly concerned there was a chance the signatures were not being observed.
• If you have any suggestions who I should speak to at CGC, I'd appreciate it.

[WaltG12]

Bumping this because I've only just seen it.

 

On 4/16/2019 at 1:13 PM, DougC said:

My overall thoughts on the OP are the same as when people come up and tell me when someone is doing something wrong at work.

My first question is always "Are you telling me this because they are actually doing something out of standard or are you just trying to get someone in trouble"?

 

I'm not sure how this can get anyone in trouble, when, as stated, this is how bigger signings have been handled for a while now.

Did you ever participate in one of Stan's while he was alive? I don't know how it was wherever you are, but at Wizard in Chicago, the CGC facilitator handling the signing was generally set up across an aisle from the actual signing.

You'd leave Stan's area and walk your book across that aisle to their booth.

What nobody really talked about, though, was that the aisle you had to walk across was often populated with people trying to catch a glimpse of Stan--volunteers tried to keep people moving, but it wasn't the most effective process. If anyone at that booth was trying to monitor people coming off Stan's line, they wouldn't have had a line of sight to do it, thanks to the massive crowd of lookie-loos.

But, due to the "efficiency" of Stan's line, combined with the amount of time it took for them to take your books & get the paperwork & money thing all sorted, they were never well staffed enough to monitor the line, even if they could have. They usually had a line themselves, a few people deep, while their heads were down trying to get everyone sorted as quickly as possible.

 

On 4/16/2019 at 3:39 PM, revat said:

the process is sometimes not as perfect as it should be.  If you have a concern, you should bring it up with CGC.  If enough people report their concerns, improvements can be made to the process.

I harbor no illusions that it'll do any good.

As was stated above, it's a trade off that CGC chose to make/allow for the sake of efficiency, as anything else would've created longer lines and more backups in areas where people needed to move. The only viable alternative would be to handle it the way that MLB (and, therefore, Star Wars Celebration) does--put the person at the end of the table, so they can watch what's signed (not that they necessarily do, but there's a lot less room for error & a lot more eyes consistently on everyone involved) and so anyone who walks past them is guaranteed to have gotten something signed.

But, the intricacies required here, with the paperwork & the payment & actually taking the signed piece, are a lot more involved than simply putting a sticker on something and/or scanning a barcode. So they can't do it anywhere near as smoothly as MLB can, and when you have a line like Stan did, you want to get people in and out of it, not create a bottleneck at the end of it.

So, they did what they could to eliminate that bottleneck and moved that hand-off point further out to its own line. I can't say I blame them for it, as there's really no other way to keep up the necessary pace. (Personally, I always wondered why, with regard to Stan's line, nobody was sealing the CGC bound books in a tamper proof bag like they use at Best Buy at the end of the line, so there'd at least be some level of security, but I figured that even that would cause a moderate bottleneck that nobody wanted to deal with.)

With all that, at the end of the day, I trust the facilitators but look at second-hand CGC yellow labels the same way I look at sports signatures with "In the Presence" stickers on them. Is it real? Probably. 99.99% even.

Is it the rock-solid, iron clad, no wiggle room at all whatsoever guarantee that it purports itself to be? Not when it comes to big name show signatures. It's why my only CGC yellow label books come from trusted sources directly or verifiable signings with trusted sources. If I can trace a signature back to a private signing with someone like Doug or Rich, then it's as good as gold, as far as I'm concerned. Anything signed on the show floor acquired by a random collector under unknown circumstances has too much wiggle room, as far as I'm concerned--at least too much with regard to the premium that CGC SS commands (or that sellers try to get) over their (also very likely to be good) raw counterparts.

Of course, I trust the other guy's yellow label even less, ever since the head of their program defended the choice to appoint a guy as his own witness showed up at a con and went to their booth to request a witness by claiming that he first asked the guy "a series of questions", as though people intent on committing fraud don't lie in pursuit of that fraud.

Put simply, I trust most of the people involved, but have little regard for the program itself or its reputation. And CGC doesn't really care about that.

[A-DONIS]

11 hours ago, WaltG12 said:

Bumping this because I've only just seen it.

 

I'm not sure how this can get anyone in trouble, when, as stated, this is how bigger signings have been handled for a while now.

Did you ever participate in one of Stan's while he was alive? I don't know how it was wherever you are, but at Wizard in Chicago, the CGC facilitator handling the signing was generally set up across an aisle from the actual signing.

You'd leave Stan's area and walk your book across that aisle to their booth.

What nobody really talked about, though, was that the aisle you had to walk across was often populated with people trying to catch a glimpse of Stan--volunteers tried to keep people moving, but it wasn't the most effective process. If anyone at that booth was trying to monitor people coming off Stan's line, they wouldn't have had a line of sight to do it, thanks to the massive crowd of lookie-loos.

But, due to the "efficiency" of Stan's line, combined with the amount of time it took for them to take your books & get the paperwork & money thing all sorted, they were never well staffed enough to monitor the line, even if they could have. They usually had a line themselves, a few people deep, while their heads were down trying to get everyone sorted as quickly as possible.

 

I harbor no illusions that it'll do any good.

As was stated above, it's a trade off that CGC chose to make/allow for the sake of efficiency, as anything else would've created longer lines and more backups in areas where people needed to move. The only viable alternative would be to handle it the way that MLB (and, therefore, Star Wars Celebration) does--put the person at the end of the table, so they can watch what's signed (not that they necessarily do, but there's a lot less room for error & a lot more eyes consistently on everyone involved) and so anyone who walks past them is guaranteed to have gotten something signed.

But, the intricacies required here, with the paperwork & the payment & actually taking the signed piece, are a lot more involved than simply putting a sticker on something and/or scanning a barcode. So they can't do it anywhere near as smoothly as MLB can, and when you have a line like Stan did, you want to get people in and out of it, not create a bottleneck at the end of it.

So, they did what they could to eliminate that bottleneck and moved that hand-off point further out to its own line. I can't say I blame them for it, as there's really no other way to keep up the necessary pace. (Personally, I always wondered why, with regard to Stan's line, nobody was sealing the CGC bound books in a tamper proof bag like they use at Best Buy at the end of the line, so there'd at least be some level of security, but I figured that even that would cause a moderate bottleneck that nobody wanted to deal with.)

With all that, at the end of the day, I trust the facilitators but look at second-hand CGC yellow labels the same way I look at sports signatures with "In the Presence" stickers on them. Is it real? Probably. 99.99% even.

Is it the rock-solid, iron clad, no wiggle room at all whatsoever guarantee that it purports itself to be? Not when it comes to big name show signatures. It's why my only CGC yellow label books come from trusted sources directly or verifiable signings with trusted sources. If I can trace a signature back to a private signing with someone like Doug or Rich, then it's as good as gold, as far as I'm concerned. Anything signed on the show floor acquired by a random collector under unknown circumstances has too much wiggle room, as far as I'm concerned--at least too much with regard to the premium that CGC SS commands (or that sellers try to get) over their (also very likely to be good) raw counterparts.

Of course, I trust the other guy's yellow label even less, ever since the head of their program defended the choice to appoint a guy as his own witness showed up at a con and went to their booth to request a witness by claiming that he first asked the guy "a series of questions", as though people intent on committing fraud don't lie in pursuit of that fraud.

Put simply, I trust most of the people involved, but have little regard for the program itself or its reputation. And CGC doesn't really care about that.

You seem to have taken the elitist approaching not knowing how the program works.  And since you have little regard for the program itself, you should have kept your over-rated opinion to yourself. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

[DougC]

22 hours ago, WaltG12 said:

Did you ever participate in one of Stan's while he was alive?

You have found me out...

I have only participated in the post life signings.

[TB08SM]

This is unacceptable!!!!  He should be watching every book get signed CGC or not… just in case.

[radicalmichael]

Man thats a sweet backpack!