Support your LCS! But why? 2 2

[MrBedrock]

36 minutes ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

If the resto is obvious (visible color touch, glue, tape etc..) of course you’re going to point that out and disclose. I’m talking about restoration that would take a professional to determine. You can’t expect a shop owner with thousands of books process to be held responsible if one happens to come back restored. Buyer takes that chance when purchasing raw books. 

This is not right. A customer should never ever bear the burden of responsibility for missed restoration.

[newshane]

1 hour ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

You can’t expect a shop owner with thousands of books process to be held responsible if one happens to come back restored. Buyer takes that chance when purchasing raw books. 

Wow...

I strongly disagree. 

[HouseofComics.Com]

27 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

This is not right. A customer should never ever bear the burden of responsibility for missed restoration.

Exactly.

[newshane]

37 minutes ago, DavidTheDavid said:

A Great Escape just opened where I live, just outside Nashville. The original store was a wonderful place, and I can still recall my first visits to it as a child. The one that opened recently where I am has very few new comics, two boxes of overpriced vintage comics, and less than 20 "wall" comics that were poorly priced as well.

The LCS where I've done business these last few years has both improved and declined in some ways. The owner's son has taken over the day to day running of the store, and he and a partner, who seems utterly disinterested in the people in the store, is working to increase the store's presence. They've increased their social presence, gotten in some decent collections, and even scored a nice DD 1 and a low grade AF 15. They're having a go at pressing though they're still amateur time from the results I've seen, now carry some slabbed books and will make CGC submissions, and are running some online auctions. They offer discounts on both new books and back issues for box holders.

But...their grading is quite poor, their pricing is high (to accommodate the discount, is my guess), the aforementioned partner has all the social skills of a rock, another clerk can't even make conversation (I've seen customers leave because of his inability to interact with people when they pose questions, he also manhandles books). They lack any knowledge of the back issue market that doesn't involve Marvel superheroes. If there's not a recent sold item on ebay to reference, they don't think a market exists at all for a book. But their demeanor is this weird snobbishness that they can't admit what they don't know. That dismissive attitude is turning off people who would spend with them. I'm not a heavy hitter, but I spend at least a few hundred every month on back issues. And when I was playing part-time dealer, I bought and sold almost six figures of slabbed comics. I still play around in that market some, but when they want a 50% commission on consignments and look boggled when I explain that I can send slabs to ComicLink for 10%, they sure aren't getting my business. I'd like to connect with more local back issue collectors. I'd like to find the people who know that comics extend beyond Marvel Silver Age. I'd like to support the local hobby scene. But they make it hard to do that.

I get that they have to truck in what will sell to their market. I get that they are working in a pennies business. And I get that I don't know how to run their business. But the poor customer service, the dismissiveness, the weird (to me at least) passion for the hobby to energize the store mixed with the indifference to a large swath of the market, the ignorance of that market marked with an incurious refusal to admit they don't know all there is to know: it's all become a turn off. The folks at the store across town will greet you by name, ask if you got anything in recently, talk about golden age books, price things to sell, and just display a real interest in the hobby as a whole. It's a notable difference. As for that Great Escape that opened, I have no interest in returning. I mean, if I'm looking to buy an old sofa, some antique China, some over priced VG copies of random back issues, and a vinyl record, I guess that's my place.

 

Sorry to hear that David. I was really pumped about the 'boro location, but I haven't had a chance to check it out yet. Bummed! 

I need to get out more and visit all of these shops, just to see for myself. 

[Cruzin' Thru Comics]

10 minutes ago, newshane said:

Wow...

I strongly disagree. 

Look, I understand. There are quite a few variables. If it’s a 10 dollar book thats a big difference from say a $900 key issue. I would check the book for any resto to the best of my ability. I would advise the customer that I don’t think it’s restored but can’t be 100% sure. Let’s say it comes back trimmed. What if the buyer brings in a different book thats graded? What if the buyer did the resto themselves? If its a customer you’ve worked with for a long time thats a big difference from a new one that just came in once. If a customer is that worried about it I would suggest they buy a book thats already been professionally graded. 

[NoMan]

3 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

All done as policy...

And your staff grabbed a chair for my elderly mother and got her some water while I shopped. 

And your staff (Leeann) at Sugarland store spent a long time with me getting me back up to speed (after a 30 year break from comics) without pressure to buy anything

And your staff steered me to trusted sellers while at a con in Houston.

Your raw books came back with a higher grade from CGC than your grade. Not that I CGC much, but I did with a couple of books I bought from you.

You took time with me explaining the ins and outs collecting OA showing me your EC OA. 

Hell, your back issue guy helped me get a whole Miller DD raw run together and sent it to me in LA.

So where's the first place I run to a spend money while in Houston? And spend money by mail? Repeatedly. 

Mr. Bedrock does it right. 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by NoMan

[Ryan.]

7 minutes ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

Look, I understand. There are quite a few variables. If it’s a 10 dollar book thats a big difference from say a $900 key issue. I would check the book for any resto to the best of my ability. I would advise the customer that I don’t think it’s restored but can’t be 100% sure. Let’s say it comes back trimmed. What if the buyer brings in a different book thats graded? What if the buyer did the resto themselves? If its a customer you’ve worked with for a long time thats a big difference from a new one that just came in once. If a customer is that worried about it I would suggest they buy a book thats already been professionally graded. 

Valid points though, ideally, both parties would operate in good faith and at least discuss remedy options. 

There is a big store here in Mass with a massive back issue selection. I purchased a $1000 SA key from them that ended up having color touch. I bought it to the owner's attention and I admitted that we both missed it. I didn't demand a refund but merely wanted to discuss options. He told me, "You bought it, it's your problem." I have refused to step foot in that store since. 

[Number 6]

39 minutes ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

Look, I understand. There are quite a few variables. If it’s a 10 dollar book thats a big difference from say a $900 key issue. I would check the book for any resto to the best of my ability. I would advise the customer that I don’t think it’s restored but can’t be 100% sure. Let’s say it comes back trimmed. What if the buyer brings in a different book thats graded? What if the buyer did the resto themselves? If its a customer you’ve worked with for a long time thats a big difference from a new one that just came in once. If a customer is that worried about it I would suggest they buy a book thats already been professionally graded. 

 

The thing is, the bolded part cuts both ways: If a dealer wants to make phat stacks off the current fad paper collectible with zero risk of returns, then he should have all his worthwhile material (ie books he can’t afford to accept a return on) graded by a 3rd party. 

Honestly, if I had a store owner trying to sell me a $900 comic book and he told be what you just typed, my response would be “well, then you better get it slabbed by someone who can” and walk. 

Granted, I guess your stance protects you from getting taken advantage of by an unscrupulous scammer. But I think that policy in the long run will cost you more paying customers than the scammer bullets you dodged. 

As to the what-if scenarios you mentioned: I’m sure they exist but they’re the minority of who walk through the door. 

Which get’s to one of the points mentioned earlier - does it benefit you as dealer to treat ALL your customers like potential “bad guys” with such policies based on what a minority might attempt to pull?

[Number 6]

1 hour ago, Ryan. said:

Valid points though, ideally, both parties would operate in good faith and at least discuss remedy options. 

 

I agree, operating in good faith and being willing to discuss options goes a long way, as well as recognizing that situations vary. 

If I bought some mid-80’s Daredevils for $10 each, get them home and discover they all have color touch? I would expect to be able to return those without any hassle. 

If I bought a $1,000 book that the owner felt confident was unrestored, I immediately send it to CGC and it comes back PLOD?  I’d probably be looking for a full or nearly full return on the book itself, but the grading fees and associated shipping costs would be on me. I couldn’t detect the restoration either without the evaluation of a 3rd part so I have to take some responsibility for that. 

If I bought a $1,000 book but held it in my collection for a number of years before submitting to CGC only to discover it’s restored? Well, I’d bring it to the dealer’s attention but at that point I’d want to see if we could possibly work some kind of partial refund based on the difference between a restored/unrestored copy. Yes, I bought the book on the pretext it was unrestored, but after holding the book for a period of time at some point the book becomes more mine than the dealers. 

If a dealer is trying to sell me a $1,000 book but is hedging on being 100% sure if the book is unrestored, I might suggest maybe sharing the risk, say splitting the cost to submit to CGC. If it comes back unrestored I buy the book; if it comes back restored the dealer now know exactly what he has without dumping too much more into the book and I’m comfortable what I wagered to find out the book’s true state. Or something like that. 

 

[MrBedrock]

1 hour ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

Look, I understand. There are quite a few variables. If it’s a 10 dollar book thats a big difference from say a $900 key issue. I would check the book for any resto to the best of my ability. I would advise the customer that I don’t think it’s restored but can’t be 100% sure. Let’s say it comes back trimmed. What if the buyer brings in a different book thats graded? What if the buyer did the resto themselves? If its a customer you’ve worked with for a long time thats a big difference from a new one that just came in once. If a customer is that worried about it I would suggest they buy a book thats already been professionally graded. 

Having had a store for thirty years I can say that I have never had a customer restore a book, send it in to get graded, have it come back restored, and then blame it on me. I have had each of those things happen multiple times, But never all together.

But here is the key part...if that did happen I would take the return, give the refund, and try to make the rest of their shopping experience the best it can be.

[D84]

31 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

Having had a store for thirty years I can say that I have never had a customer restore a book, send it in to get graded, have it come back restored, and then blame it on me. I have had each of those things happen multiple times, But never all together.

But here is the key part...if that did happen I would take the return, give the refund, and try to make the rest of their shopping experience the best it can be.

Richard is the best, most trustworthy dealer I've had the pleasure to do business with.  He even went up to bat for me with another dealer who sold me a book with undisclosed restoration.

Anyone who wants to know how to be a first rate dealer, with loyal customers,  talk to him.

Bedrock City's customer service is why I will always support my local LCS.

[dupont2005]

5 hours ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

If the resto is obvious (visible color touch, glue, tape etc..) of course you’re going to point that out and disclose. I’m talking about restoration that would take a professional to determine. You can’t expect a shop owner with thousands of books process to be held responsible if one happens to come back restored. Buyer takes that chance when purchasing raw books. 

If I buy a Rolex in a pawn shop for FMV if a used Rolex, it’s reasonable to assume the thing is what I paid for. Genuine, with all parts genuine. If I then take it to an authorized dealer for service who informs me various pieces were salvaged from a replica, I’d expect the pawn shop to make me right. I wouldn’t hold it against them, they’re not Rolex experts and so,e of those fake watches can be very convincing. It’s not like I’d accuse them of swapping the parts out themselves or call them scammers on Yelp. I’d just want a refund

[newshane]

3 hours ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

What if the buyer brings in a different book thats graded? What if the buyer did the resto themselves? If its a customer you’ve worked with for a long time thats a big difference from a new one that just came in once. If a customer is that worried about it I would suggest they buy a book thats already been professionally graded. 

This is part of the problem with some dealers - the suspicious, adversarial, paranoid attitude towards customers. 

I just about aborted a deal not too long ago over this very thing. 

Stand by your product. Stand by your grading. Make it right if it's wrong. 

[newshane]

2 hours ago, Number 6 said:

I agree, operating in good faith and being willing to discuss options goes a long way, as well as recognizing that situations vary. 

 

[BabaLament]

4 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

Having had a store for thirty years I can say that I have never had a customer restore a book, send it in to get graded, have it come back restored, and then blame it on me. I have had each of those things happen multiple times, But never all together.

But here is the key part...if that did happen I would take the return, give the refund, and try to make the rest of their shopping experience the best it can be.

...and this is why I, and many others, buy things from your shop worry-free. If a book has restoration, or issues, the staff have always taken the time to point that out to me before making a purchase I might regret. I picked up an ASM #129 last year that I thought looked shady, but was willing to take a stab at. Before I sent it on to be graded I brought it through the shop and asked if your people thought it was booby-trapped (I thought it might have been trimmed). They gave it a once-over, and pronounced it legit. That's one of the best parts about having an LCS w/ trustworthy staff; sometimes its nice to have a second opinion.

[Cruzin' Thru Comics]

2 hours ago, newshane said:

This is part of the problem with some dealers - the suspicious, adversarial, paranoid attitude towards customers. 

I just about aborted a deal not too long ago over this very thing. 

Stand by your product. Stand by your grading. Make it right if it's wrong. 

I’ve been selling at shows, on eBay and to local customers for over 10 years now. Haven’t once had a problem with restoration yet. I would definitely work with customers on a solution. I just hit 1000 perfect feedback on eBay a couple weeks ago. I’m sure if this issue came up we’d work something out so both parties were happy. It’s easy to say these things about dealers until you actually become one. There are lots of miserable customers out there as well and I’m going to try my best not to get screwed over by them. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 minutes ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

It’s easy to say these things about dealers until you actually become one.

Ever watch the show "Life In Pieces"? Its a fun show, definitely on the surreal side, but still grounded in family humor. 

A lot of the humor surrounds the "missed takeaway", where the point being made by one character is completely missed by another. 

That's what's happened here. You're assuming things that may, or may not be true, but ultimately, you're missing the point. If you're going to be defensive and worry that everyone might be trying to pull a fast one on you...and that's not a personal slight, just an objective analysis...then you'll have to recognize that those attitudes will turn off a significant portion of your potential customer base. It's like I said above: assume the best intentions in everyone, until and unless they prove you wrong, and don't transfer that to anyone else.

Do you own a store? Because this thread is essentially about actual stores, rather than "dealers."

As to your earlier comments about customers switching books and whatnot, there are ways to mitigate that. First, and perhaps most important, is to realize that the odds of someone paying a substantial sum of money on a back issue and then ruining said back issue by "restoring" it, then getting it graded and then blaming you for "missing" said resto is phenomenally small. Possible? Sure. Likely? Well as Mr. B said, he's never had anyone, in 30 years of retailing, have anyone actually do all of those things. You'd have to have a customer who was realllllly mad at you for some reason, but we clever enough to disguise it so that such a scheme would be possible. Most buyers who drop a considerable chunk of change on a comic, the last thing they'd dream of doing is trying to restore it.

Second...the way you protect yourself is to scan anything above the value you don't think you can "eat." Be it $25, or $100, or $500, or whatever, scan your inventory. That way, if someone tries to "switch books" on you, you can pull up the scans and say "I think you may have mistaken another copy for the one I sold you. Look, clearly different copies." 

Third, track your inventory. This requires diligence on your part, but knowing what you sold, and to whom you sold it, can make all the difference if a dispute ever arose.

These are all pro-active steps you can take, to protect not just yourself, but your customers, too. 

33 minutes ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

There are lots of miserable customers out there as well and I’m going to try my best not to get screwed over by them. 

There are. But assuming everyone is a potential miserable customer is going to hurt you in the long run. You'll burn out real quick carrying that burden around all the time. Not everyone is out to screw you over...and trying to protect yourself from any potential "screwing" is just going to alienate people in the long run, because they'll sense that in you.

30 years for me in comics, as of this summer, 28 years as a seller. Set up at my first show in the spring of 1991 with Fred Tiu. What an experience that was.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I also don't mind naming names, either. I know some people get squeamish about that, but...the truth is an absolute defense, and people deserve to know what they're walking into. If it seems I have a grudge against certain stores...of course I do! They ripped me off, and have never even attempted to make amends. I bought multiple restored books from House of Secrets in Burbank, and anyone and everyone I know who is considering going there, I tell the same thing: be very, very careful about what you're buying. Check it thoroughly, because A. they didn't, and B. they don't care. The shady part of the community knows this, and I have zero doubt that people buy problem books, and use HOS as a laundry. You buy a color touched Hulk #181 in 8.5 for $3,000 or so, you crack it, they buy it from you for $4,000, and they put it in their cabinet...no mention of the CT they don't even know is there...for $6,000.

It's quite a nice racket.

But at least people go into it with eyes wide open.

[Cruzin' Thru Comics]

8 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ever watch the show "Life In Pieces"? Its a fun show, definitely on the surreal side, but still grounded in family humor. 

A lot of the humor surrounds the "missed takeaway", where the point being made by one character is completely missed by another. 

That's what's happened here. You're assuming things that may, or may not be true, but ultimately, you're missing the point. If you're going to be defensive and worry that everyone might be trying to pull a fast one on you...and that's not a personal slight, just an objective analysis...then you'll have to recognize that those attitudes will turn off a significant portion of your potential customer base. It's like I said above: assume the best intentions in everyone, until and unless they prove you wrong, and don't transfer that to anyone else.

Do you own a store? Because this thread is essentially about actual stores, rather than "dealers."

As to your earlier comments about customers switching books and whatnot, there are ways to mitigate that. First, and perhaps most important, is to realize that the odds of someone paying a substantial sum of money on a back issue and then ruining said back issue by "restoring" it, then getting it graded and then blaming you for "missing" said resto is phenomenally small. Possible? Sure. Likely? Well as Mr. B said, he's never had anyone, in 30 years of retailing, have anyone actually do all of those things. You'd have to have a customer who was realllllly mad at you for some reason, but we clever enough to disguise it so that such a scheme would be possible. Most buyers who drop a considerable chunk of change on a comic, the last thing they'd dream of doing is trying to restore it.

Second...the way you protect yourself is to scan anything above the value you don't think you can "eat." Be it $25, or $100, or $500, or whatever, scan your inventory. That way, if someone tries to "switch books" on you, you can pull up the scans and say "I think you may have mistaken another copy for the one I sold you. Look, clearly different copies." 

Third, track your inventory. This requires diligence on your part, but knowing what you sold, and to whom you sold it, can make all the difference if a dispute ever arose.

These are all pro-active steps you can take, to protect not just yourself, but your customers, too. 

There are. But assuming everyone is a potential miserable customer is going to hurt you in the long run. You'll burn out real quick carrying that burden around all the time. Not everyone is out to screw you over...and trying to protect yourself from any potential "screwing" is just going to alienate people in the long run, because they'll sense that in you.

30 years for me in comics, as of this summer, 28 years as a seller. Set up at my first show in the spring of 1991 with Fred Tiu. What an experience that was.

I appreciate the advice. I know most of the shop owners in the Los Angeles area. I listen to all of their advice. I’m actually trying to open my own shop soon and the way this industry is nowadays we need all the customers we can get. 

[NoMan]

7 hours ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

I appreciate the advice. I know most of the shop owners in the Los Angeles area. I listen to all of their advice. I’m actually trying to open my own shop soon and the way this industry is nowadays we need all the customers we can get. 

let's us know. I'll check it out!