Support your LCS! But why? 2 2

[SBRobin]

I go mainly for charity. I like the owner and I want his store to succeed and for him to do well, and he's a really nice guy. But I have been going less and less. Retailer incentive variants are always priced at the ratio, so a 1:100 incentive will be in his shop for $100 that I can get on ebay for $70. He offers a discount on new issues, but it's not as much as Midtown. Keys are pretty expensive too. I paid $80 for an old issue of ASM in mediocre condition because I wanted to buy something, then some it was half that price on ebay. 

[newshane]

8 hours ago, Cruzin' Thru Comics said:

 I’m sure if this issue came up we’d work something out so both parties were happy. 

That's all good, but this statement doesn't exactly jive with what you said earlier. 

[F For Fake]

20 hours ago, october said:

Nothing huge. Some silver age minor keys priced around half of GPA. Also got an ASM 57 they had marked as VF, but that is dead NM. Not sure what the grader was looking at. 

That's cool! There are definitely deals to be had, as they are in the business of turning stuff over pretty quickly. As for the grader, I've known him a loooong time (since I was a kid, really) and I think his tendency is to undergrade the higher stuff (meaning you'll find "VF's" and "VFNM" that are strong NM) but the mid-grades can be a tad overgraded sometimes (some F's may really be a little closer to VG/VG+, etc). It usually all evens out in the end. I picked up a VFNM Cap 109 from that collection that was a "VFNM", but is a NM all day long in current condition and could maybe press higher. It's that nice. There are some gems to be found for sure. Glad you got some good stuff!

[Robot Man]

15 hours ago, Number 6 said:

I agree, operating in good faith and being willing to discuss options goes a long way, as well as recognizing that situations vary. 

If I bought some mid-80’s Daredevils for $10 each, get them home and discover they all have color touch? I would expect to be able to return those without any hassle. 

If I bought a $1,000 book that the owner felt confident was unrestored, I immediately send it to CGC and it comes back PLOD?  I’d probably be looking for a full or nearly full return on the book itself, but the grading fees and associated shipping costs would be on me. I couldn’t detect the restoration either without the evaluation of a 3rd part so I have to take some responsibility for that. 

If I bought a $1,000 book but held it in my collection for a number of years before submitting to CGC only to discover it’s restored? Well, I’d bring it to the dealer’s attention but at that point I’d want to see if we could possibly work some kind of partial refund based on the difference between a restored/unrestored copy. Yes, I bought the book on the pretext it was unrestored, but after holding the book for a period of time at some point the book becomes more mine than the dealers. 

If a dealer is trying to sell me a $1,000 book but is hedging on being 100% sure if the book is unrestored, I might suggest maybe sharing the risk, say splitting the cost to submit to CGC. If it comes back unrestored I buy the book; if it comes back restored the dealer now know exactly what he has without dumping too much more into the book and I’m comfortable what I wagered to find out the book’s true state. Or something like that. 

 

If you are spending a grand on a book, buy a graded copy and you will know exactly what you are getting. 

[Ken Aldred]

19 hours ago, DavidTheDavid said:

I'm not a heavy hitter, but I spend at least a few hundred every month on back issues

To many people outside our nostalgia-driven or speculative microverse, that's still a significant amount.  

Edited April 26, 2019 by Ken Aldred

[Number 6]

1 hour ago, Robot Man said:

If you are spending a grand on a book, buy a graded copy and you will know exactly what you are getting. 

I understand that. For me personally, if I was in the market for a $1,0000 book that's exactly what I'd do - buy a CGC graded copy. 

But it seems there are dealers who sell $1,000 books raw and there are buyers for those books who then turn around and submit them to CGC with the minimum expectation that the book comes back unrestored. I don't do it but clearly others do. 

I was just using Crusin' For Comics' hypothetical sale of a $900 book to a buyer concerned about restoration as a springboard to illustrate that situations vary and as long as buyer and seller aren't adversarial they can work something out. 

And, admittedly, I got far too long-winded with it. 

[Robot Man]

That is a gamble and buyer beware. Gotta ask yourself, is it worth the risk for a little maybe short term gain? Not all books have "potential". There are a lot of sharks in the water. You really better be on your game and know resto to play that game. I personally, won't do it unless I am buying from a reputable dealer that I know and even then, probably wouldn't dump that kind of money into a raw. That is why CGC stays in business...

[RockMyAmadeus]

12 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

That is a gamble and buyer beware. Gotta ask yourself, is it worth the risk for a little maybe short term gain? Not all books have "potential". There are a lot of sharks in the water. You really better be on your game and know resto to play that game. I personally, won't do it unless I am buying from a reputable dealer that I know and even then, probably wouldn't dump that kind of money into a raw. That is why CGC stays in business...

Buying a book should not be a gamble for any customer. "Unrestored" is the default status of all comic books, as manufactured. A buyer should never have to assume the risk that the book might be altered.

The "you're taking a gamble" argument never flies with regards to restoration. A restored item has been purposely altered to appear in better condition than it actually is...and that alteration is designed to be "not obvious." The burden is on the seller to disclose, not the buyer to find out. That doesn't fly in any other field of commerce; it shouldn't fly in comics, either.

I doubt you'd convince any court in the land otherwise.

And not everyone buys books with an eye to "short term gain" or that "have potential." What the buyer intends to do with the book is none of the seller's business.

Edited April 26, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

23 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

And, admittedly, I got far too long-winded with it. 

Bah! Making a clear position sometimes requires more than 144 characters. Not everything can be boiled down to a soundbite.

[DavidTheDavid]

1 hour ago, Ken Aldred said:

To many people outside our nostalgia-driven or speculative microverse, that's still a significant amount.  

It's certainly more than I should be spending!

[Robot Man]

This thread has made me think a little bit about comic book shops and their owners. Most probably go into business with good intentions and a lot of hope. Many long term dealers I know have gotton a bit "jaded" if they have done this for a considerable length of time. The customer is not "always right" and many can be downright rude and entitled. They have heard all the senarios and have to put up with a lot of abuse.

That being said, a lot of comic book shop owners seem to have social problems. Not good when working with the public if you want to survive. Many, could not hold down a real job especially one working with the public. They treat their shops as their own little "kingdom" and if you don't like it get out. I don't deal with those people and will not support them.

There are MANY shops though, that work hard, service their customers and are very professional treating their shops like any other "real" business. These folks need our support and I give them as much business as possible. I don't want them to go they way of most record shops, book stores, head shops and other fun places to shop. Small businesses are a dying breed and we need to support them before they are all gone.

Another beef of mine as a seller. I do a LOT of shows all year long. I sell comic books but also lots of other antiques and collectibles. I know real well the frustrations of hardworking shop owners and other dealers. It can be a tough, backbreaking business. One of my biggest beefs with customers is when I quote a price and they ask "what is your best price?" and then assume that is the new starting point to negotiate. Really??? You already had me kick myself in the butt and now you want to start "playing the game"? If you donj't like my price, it is YOUR responsibility to make a counter offer, not mine. When I quote my "best price", that is it. No more haggling. This is the price that I am willing to take it home for. Buy it or politely move on.

Luckily, other than the usual un-informed buyers who really don't know the value of things, 90+% of my customers are wonderful and I get a lot of repeat business at shows. This is why I keep doing it.

[dupont2005]

2 hours ago, Robot Man said:

If you are spending a grand on a book, buy a graded copy and you will know exactly what you are getting. 

Same logic, if you’re selling a $1000 book get it graded so you know exactly what you’re selling. No matter how you spin it, the seller is responsible for accurately representing their wares

[dupont2005]

45 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

That is a gamble and buyer beware. Gotta ask yourself, is it worth the risk for a little maybe short term gain? Not all books have "potential". There are a lot of sharks in the water. You really better be on your game and know resto to play that game. I personally, won't do it unless I am buying from a reputable dealer that I know and even then, probably wouldn't dump that kind of money into a raw. That is why CGC stays in business...

“It’s your fault for letting me screw you over” is not a great sales philosophy

[Robot Man]

17 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Buying a book should not be a gamble for any customer. "Unrestored" is the default status of all comic books, as manufactured. A buyer should never have to assume the risk that the book might be altered.

The "you're taking a gamble" argument never flies with regards to restoration. A restored item has been purposely altered to appear in better condition than it actually is...and that alteration is designed to be "not obvious." The burden is on the seller to disclose, not the buyer to find out. That doesn't fly in any other field of commerce; it shouldn't fly in comics, either.

I doubt you'd convince any court in the land otherwise.

And not everyone buys books with an eye to "short term gain" or that "have potential." What the buyer intends to do with the book is none of the seller's business.

What this hobby "should" be and what it really is are two different things. If you are going to pony up big money for a book you better be educated or very well versed in what you are doing. Everybody makes mistakes on both sides. I have never sold a book that I didn't stand behind. If I miss something, it's on me and I man up and make it right. I check my stuff really well but have been fooled. I treat every buyer the way I would want to be treated if the shoe were on the other foot.

I have also made pricing mistakes. Missing books that have suddenly become hot or in demand. My lack of dillegence is your gain. Believe me, every show I do, I get those sharp buyers that capitialize on it and that is alright.

This hobby is full of shady people whether you like it or not. They eventually get a bad rep and buyers stay away from them. Word of mouth is very powerful. I trust very few dealers when it comes to my money. I do my homework and buy from the right ones. I have also learned the hard way. It is part of the education that comes from years of buying and selling books. If I am spending a lot of money, I rely on the experts at CGC to help me sleep well with my decision.

As far as what you do with it once you buy it, IS none of my business and I am happy if they got a deal. It just makes for happy return customers.

[DavidTheDavid]

Quote

That being said, a lot of comic book shop owners seem to have social problems. Not good when working with the public if you want to survive. Many, could not hold down a real job especially one working with the public. They treat their shops as their own little "kingdom" and if you don't like it get out. I don't deal with those people and will not support them.

I have a feeling that those owners would say the same about many of their customers. Of course, that doesn't include anyone here.   

[Robot Man]

5 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

Same logic, if you’re selling a $1000 book get it graded so you know exactly what you’re selling. No matter how you spin it, the seller is responsible for accurately representing their wares

It's a 50/50 proposition. Buy from trusted, honest dealers or be very well versed in what you are doing. Bad dealers love un-informed buyers. A sad statement but very true now days.

[JollyComics]

20 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

This is not right. A customer should never ever bear the burden of responsibility for missed restoration.

I can share my experience with you. I asked for two books being pulled from the glass display and asked the owner if it's ok to inspect the books throughout. He nodded. Both books were heavily color touched (it won't be removed for sure). One of them was trimmed on three edges (pretty obvious to me). I showed the restorations to him. He nodded. His price was apparently not 40-60% below the price guide. I had to explain about the right price for the restoration. He said no flatly. No further questions. The owner's face was stoic. No offer, no promotional or all others. Just blank. Walked out of the door. That was my only visit at LCS (27 miles away from my home) and last time.

[newshane]

2 minutes ago, DavidTheDavid said:

I have a feeling that those owners would say the same about many of their customers. Of course, that doesn't include anyone here.   

Rule of social interaction #1 - acknowledge that a customer has entered the store by either:

A. Looking at them (at least). 

B. Saying "Hello, can I help you with anything?" 

That alone would put you in the top 5% of comic shop owners.  

[Robot Man]

8 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

“It’s your fault for letting me screw you over” is not a great sales philosophy

No it's not. VERY short sighted and dealers like that don't last long in this hobby.

[dupont2005]

Just now, Robot Man said:

It's a 50/50 proposition. Buy from trusted, honest dealers or be very well versed in what you are doing. Bad dealers love un-informed buyers. A sad statement but very true now days.

Kind of the point of the thread though, right? Pointing out bad business practices.