Support your LCS! But why? 2 2

[Robot Man]

2 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

Kind of the point of the thread though, right? Pointing out bad business practices. 

Yep!  Luckily, we have these great boards to get the word out. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, Robot Man said:

What this hobby "should" be and what it really is are two different things.

Never suggested anything even remotely otherwise. But the discussion isn't about what "should" be, but what the buyer has the RIGHT to expect.

The burden is on the seller to disclose, not the buyer to find out. A buyer shouldn't be forced to buy an "already graded book" to be free of the risk of buying altered items.

A seller sells me a restored book without disclosing it, whether they knew about it or not, that seller fixes it, period. No accusation, no assumption of bad faith...just fix it. 

*I* sell a restored book without disclosing it, *I* fix it. Period. 

5 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

Everybody makes mistakes on both sides.

What does this even mean? The only mistake a buyer can make is in paying too much for items that are available elsewhere for a lower price. The buyer doesn't "make a mistake" if they don't detect restoration. The onus is NOT on the buyer to be an expert. It's on the SELLER. And if the seller does not know, that's fine...it's perfectly legal to sell things "as is"...but you have to state that upfront, in no unclear terms.

9 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

This hobby is full of shady people whether you like it or not.

Again, what does this even mean? Who said there weren't shady people in this hobby? The presence of shady people in the hobby does not therefore translate into buyers being on the hook for someone else's shady behavior. 

Should buyers be aware? Of course. Should buyers do their due diligence? Of course. Should buyers do as much as they can to be aware and protect themselves? Of course. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. 

But that doesn't negate the obligation of the seller to disclose, and to repair if they don't and it's discovered after the fact. The burden is on the seller...not the buyer. The seller does not want that burden? Then they better state, upfront, in writing, that the books are being sold "as is", and the buyer assumes all responsibility...which *generally* means the buyer has the right to have the item inspected by an expert third party before the purchase is "final."

Of course...that might cut into their ability to sell, so you weigh the consequences of your choices...

[RockMyAmadeus]

20 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

“It’s your fault for letting me screw you over” is not a great sales philosophy

Exactly correct.

 

22 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

Same logic, if you’re selling a $1000 book get it graded so you know exactly what you’re selling. No matter how you spin it, the seller is responsible for accurately representing their wares

Also exactly correct.

[DavidTheDavid]

12 minutes ago, newshane said:

Rule of social interaction #1 - acknowledge that a customer has entered the store by either:

A. Looking at them (at least). 

B. Saying "Hello, can I help you with anything?" 

That alone would put you in the top 5% of comic shop owners.  

Definitely. Smiles are nice, too.

[RockMyAmadeus]

14 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

No it's not. VERY short sighted and dealers like that don't last long in this hobby.

Robert Beerbohm.

[Robot Man]

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Robert Beerbohm.

Yep, Danny Dupjek, 1,000,000 comics, the list goes on and on. Where are they now? Karma is a beach. What goes around, comes around...

Edited April 26, 2019 by Robot Man

[MrBedrock]

22 minutes ago, JollyComics said:

I can share my experience with you. I asked for two books being pulled from the glass display and asked the owner if it's ok to inspect the books throughout. He nodded. Both books were heavily color touched (it won't be removed for sure). One of them was trimmed on three edges (pretty obvious to me). I showed the restorations to him. He nodded. His price was apparently not 40-60% below the price guide. I had to explain about the right price for the restoration. He said no flatly. No further questions. The owner's face was stoic. No offer, no promotional or all others. Just blank. Walked out of the door. That was my only visit at LCS (27 miles away from my home) and last time.

Which store was this?

[Robot Man]

9 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Never suggested anything even remotely otherwise. But the discussion isn't about what "should" be, but what the buyer has the RIGHT to expect.

The burden is on the seller to disclose, not the buyer to find out. A buyer shouldn't be forced to buy an "already graded book" to be free of the risk of buying altered items.

A seller sells me a restored book without disclosing it, whether they knew about it or not, that seller fixes it, period. No accusation, no assumption of bad faith...just fix it. 

*I* sell a restored book without disclosing it, *I* fix it. Period. 

What does this even mean? The only mistake a buyer can make is in paying too much for items that are available elsewhere for a lower price. The buyer doesn't "make a mistake" if they don't detect restoration. The onus is NOT on the buyer to be an expert. It's on the SELLER. And if the seller does not know, that's fine...it's perfectly legal to sell things "as is"...but you have to state that upfront, in no unclear terms.

Again, what does this even mean? Who said there weren't shady people in this hobby? The presence of shady people in the hobby does not therefore translate into buyers being on the hook for someone else's shady behavior. 

Should buyers be aware? Of course. Should buyers do their due diligence? Of course. Should buyers do as much as they can to be aware and protect themselves? Of course. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. 

But that doesn't negate the obligation of the seller to disclose, and to repair if they don't and it's discovered after the fact. The burden is on the seller...not the buyer. The seller does not want that burden? Then they better state, upfront, in writing, that the books are being sold "as is", and the buyer assumes all responsibility...which *generally* means the buyer has the right to have the item inspected by an expert third party before the purchase is "final."

Of course...that might cut into their ability to sell, so you weigh the consequences of your choices...

Hey you're preaching to the crowd here. Comic books are just "used merchandise" that have been passed around for years. Anything can or could have happened to them in their lifetime. In some cases they have gotton to be worth a whole lot of money. Greed and shifty practices always come into play when this happens. This is the same in many collectible categories. Believe me, I deal in a lot of different stuff and have been burned myself but I have learned from my mistakes. I trust very few fully. I just don't think it is fair to dump all dealers in the same bucket. The ones that are honest stay in business, the ones that don't, don't. The honest ones (and there are tons), get my business, the ones that aren't don't. They probably all F-up time to time, they way they handle it is what matters.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Robot Man said:

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Robert Beerbohm.

Yep, Danny Dupjek, 1,000,000 comics, the list goes on and on. Where are they now? Karma is a beach. What goes around, comes around...

Your point was that such people don't last long in this hobby.

My point is that, like barnacles, they attach themselves to the underside of the hobby, and last a very, very long time. Beerbohm's still around, and has been since the 60s (as you know.) Has Bob ever paid back the people from whom he took money and never sent product, thereby stealing from them, while using the "me and my family are too sick! (but not so sick we can't maintain an online presence)" excuse?

Dupcek is still around. So is Gerry Ross. This hobby is a cesspool of people willing to take advantage of others, filled to the brim with cheats and thieves. The only way that will change is for buyers to say "no, I will NOT let you steal from me by misrepresenting what you've sold me" and "no, I will not buy from you, no matter what you have, no matter how badly I think I want it." And the only way THAT will happen is for people to discuss it, like we're doing here.

What's the old phrase around here...? "He'd trample his grandmother to buy from Satan if he had the book he wanted?" 

Knowingly doing business with the fraudulent makes one an accessory to fraud, whether one admits it or not. Even if the fraudulent don't defraud me, by doing business with them, I enable them to defraud others.

Edited April 26, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[DavidTheDavid]

48 minutes ago, JollyComics said:

I can share my experience with you. I asked for two books being pulled from the glass display and asked the owner if it's ok to inspect the books throughout. He nodded. Both books were heavily color touched (it won't be removed for sure). One of them was trimmed on three edges (pretty obvious to me). I showed the restorations to him. He nodded. His price was apparently not 40-60% below the price guide. I had to explain about the right price for the restoration. He said no flatly. No further questions. The owner's face was stoic. No offer, no promotional or all others. Just blank. Walked out of the door. That was my only visit at LCS (27 miles away from my home) and last time.

This happened to me at the store I complained about. I looked at a book, handed it back, said it looked like color touch. The guy said nothing, humphed a little, put it back on display.

Compare that to Heroes in SC where I pointed out what looked like at least one replaced staple and they removed it from display to inspect and reprice it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

17 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

I just don't think it is fair to dump all dealers in the same bucket.

Neither do I, which is why I would never do that. My point is merely that the burden of disclosure is always on the seller, never the buyer. And telling buyers it's a gamble and they should accept that risk as part of doing business is neither true nor helpful, and enables and encourages the fraudulent, as Dupont said, to continue the practice. People respect you, with good cause, and listen to what you have to say. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'll share a good example of a great dealer: Howard at Legacy Comics in Glendale, CA.

He had a beat up copy of FF #1...this would have been maybe 2-3 years ago?

It was priced at $1500, about right. I inspected it, and noted that it had color touch, vertically, in the center of the cover. I pointed it out to Howard, and he said "oh, I missed that." and immediately repriced the book at $750. I didn't ask. He just did it.

I bought the book. 

That's how you do it.

[DavidTheDavid]

I wonder if there's just a miscommunication here.

Caveat emptor is certainly true in this market. Smart buyers are looking out for themselves. But scrupulous, competent sellers should disclose any known restoration.

[ComicConnoisseur]

The main problem with the LCS future is the main product they are selling is low entertainment value for the price.

I was just looking at the upcoming Disney streaming service which debuts later in the year and they will charge $6.99 per month, while the LCS sells one monthly comic book in the $3.99/$4.99 range. If you are consumer which one would you pick? Not to mention the Disney streaming service will instantly go to smartphones/HDTVs, while it`s a difficult task to find most LCS.

This definitely isn't the late 1980s/early 1990s anymore and the LCS now has some serious competition when it comes to accessing superhero adventures. Before the LCS was the main game in town for most of us to get our superhero fix,now with a click we can get that fix somewhere other than the LCS.

It will be interesting to see what the LCS`s landscape will look like in 5-10 years.

Edited April 27, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur

[nocutename]

On 4/24/2019 at 1:01 PM, ExNihilo said:

The truth is, I haven't come across a perfect shop.  Every shop has it's own set of problems.  I went to one shop in LA that had friendly knowledgeable staff and every book was bagged/boarded, but the back issue section was small.  I have a shop nearby which provides CGC service and has a large selection of back issues, but the store is a mess and the modern weekly books are laid out and appear prone to be damaged by other customers.  Then you've got places like Mile High which have HUGE stock, but the price of the books are, as the store name implies, mile high.  I mean, I get that there are costs involved with doing business and that running the perfect shop in all likelihood would mean less profits.  But at the end of the day, when i sub to 30+ books a month, it's better for me to just buy via DCBS and save myself 40%.  I shopped at my LCS for 20+ years, but there came a time where I just had to look out for myself and save some money (so I could buy more graded books).

For me the only perfect shop I ever visited was Zapp Comics in NJ.  I stumbled across the shop, when I was at a comic / toy show in NJ and asked around it there was any comic shops in the area.  They sent me to Zapp.  Even though I live in NY, I had gone several times during my collecting phase.  What made that shop so great?  They had Silver, Bronze and up.  A truly nice selection of books that you can just browse through without asking to see any boxes from behind a counter.  They had very decent prices on all their stuff too. 

But my favorite shop will always be Alternate Realities.  While it wasn't the greatest store design wise, they had the best employees and there was always a friendly conversation waiting to spring up.  The owner kept TPBs in stock so even if you were looking for something out of print, he would have it and sell it for retail price.  I would spend hours in that shop.

The two "Local" comic shops near me just cannot compete customer service wise at all.  I have told the story about the 1 book he order twice for me and sold it twice out from under me.  Twice I trekked to the store without so much as a call from the one clerk that claims he is all about customer service.  Shame because that store does alot of in-house signing, promos and I even traded some items with them.  It was a fun store but they will never see my business again.

[Buzzetta]

I have returned a book that came back as restored to a dealer and a raw book purchased through Heritage that was advertised as having color touch but I returned it because it came back as color touched AND trimmed on all three sides. 

With that said, I would also take back a book that I sold that had restoration. 

 

[MrBedrock]

2 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

The main problem with the LCS future is the main product they are selling is low entertainment value for the price.

I was just looking at the upcoming Disney streaming service which debuts later in the year and they will charge $6.99 per month, while the LCS sells one monthly comic book in the $3.99/$4.99 range. If you are consumer which one would you pick? Not to mention the Disney streaming service will instantly go to smartphones/HDTVs, while it`s a difficult task to find most LCS.

This definitely isn't the late 1980s/early 1990s anymore and the LCS now has some serious competition when it comes to accessing superhero adventures. Before the LCS was the main game in town for most of us to get our superhero fix,now with a click we can get that fix somewhere other than the LCS.

It will be interesting to see what the LCS`s landscape will look like in 5-10 years.

This is a bad analogy...fans pay an average of $25 for affordable seats at Fenway to watch the Red Sox play, and there is absolutely no entertainment value in that.

[Ken Aldred]

2 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Before the LCS was the main game in town for most of us to get our superhero fix,now with a click we can get that fix somewhere other than the LCS.

A shop here originally called itself Odyssey because, despite being quite inconveniently located in the Southside university district with poor public transport connections at the time, comics fans would still desperately make the weekly trek there for their fix because the store was the only source for imported US comics in the city.  That was divulged to me by its rather arrogant proprietor.

With monopolistic attitudes like that one, no wonder I'm so thankful for the arrival of the digital medium.

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

This is a bad analogy...fans pay an average of $25 for affordable seats at Fenway to watch the Red Sox play, and there is absolutely no entertainment value in that.

Really. I guess we were not watching the same team last year. 

Ha ha lol.

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

41 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

A shop here originally called itself Odyssey because, despite being quite inconveniently located in the Southside university district with poor public transport connections at the time, comics fans would still desperately make the weekly trek there for their fix because the store was the only source for imported US comics in the city.  That was divulged to me by its rather arrogant proprietor.

With monopolistic attitudes like that one, no wonder I'm so thankful for the arrival of the digital medium.

Agreed. I read 99 percent of my comics digitally now either thru Amazon Kindle or Marvel Unlimited.

Last time I went to a LCS I Spent 8 bucks on two modern comics. 20 minute read tops. Felt like a terrible value for the money.

I kept saying to myself that I could have spent the $8 to either go see a 2 hour movie or put the $8 to the Netflix bill. 

The funny thing is those $3.99 cover price comics will be eventually $4.99 cover prices in the next year or two.

Terrible value for the money when Amazon`s Comixlogy Unlimited is $5.99 a month.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur