Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS 1 1

[@therealsilvermane]

11 hours ago, bronze_rules said:

WTF happened to Captain Marvel during the middle of the entire film? With her powers, they would just ignore her over half the film? So much more they could have utilized her for.

Folks have been complaining they thought Captain Marvel was underutilized in the movie. Kind of. She did kind of do what Fury called her for, emergency muscle. He didn't call her for character development. She did save Tony and Nebula. She took point on the early Thanos fight. She took out Thanos's mothership and  literally prevented Thanos from doing an even worse Gauntlet snap during the grand fight. The Russos and Brie Larson admitted the character was new and weren't completely sure what creative choices to take with her. Brie says she didn't figure out Carol Danvers until she started making the solo movie. But still, any underutilization of such a powerful character for me takes me back to some of the issues I have had with the Russo Brothers MCU movies going back to Winter Soldier. They take a lot of easy conveniences for the sake of plot or effect. In Infinity War, Wanda would have been way more effective on the battlefield than guarding Vision. They could have placed some guards with Viz and it would have been the same amount of protection it seemed. When Captain America calls the Avengers to descend on Vision when Thanos is about to get the Mind Stone, why wasn't Thor there immediately? Never mind going for the head, he should have been there way earlier. It was a bit of a plot convenience and the Russos seem to have trouble juggling all these different power sources effectively, for me. As far as an actual tightly woven story, they seem to do better with smaller stories like Cap and Bucky and Sam's relationship. Given all that, I loved Endgame.

[Comicopolis]

The Old Man Cap living his life out with Peggy while hiding from everybody theory doesn’t work according to the Russo’s concept of how time travel works. They make this very clear in the movie through Banner’s explanation that anything you change in the past doesn’t affect the future but only creates new timelines/realities, hence the mention of other time travel movies such as Back to the Future. This point is rammed home when Nebula kills her ‘old’ self and doesn’t blink out of existence.

When Cap goes back to return the stones and the hammer and then decides to stay with Peggy that changes her future and creates a new timeline/reality so him living it out means he won’t appear in the Endgame future. There’s not enough time at the end of the movie to explain it – and not everything has to be explained in fiction – but it is explainable.

Cap has the Stark time travel tech and Pym Particles, assumingly more than for one trip in case something goes wrong, so he can live out his life in the new Peggy Carter existence and still return to the point where we see him sitting on the bench in the Endgame timeline. Remember, he must be over 100 by then so Peggy will have died, and he wants to get back to let his original friends know what happened to him.

So, he has the science to do it and reason to do it but he stills need to arrive through one of the Quantum Gates, and he doesn’t do it at the end of the movie because we first see him sitting on the bench. But he could have come through any of the other Quantum Gates at different times, such as the one that Hank Pym builds in Ant-Man and the Wasp – when it’s turned on, and they’re all distracted by fighting Ghost. Old Man Cap could also appear through the one in the back of the van at the end of that movie when all three of the Pym’s are snapped out of existence and Scott is trapped in the Quantum Realm.

More likely is he reappears in the time between the Avengers setting off to retrieve the stones and their return. Any of those happening would also explain how he was able to bring his shield for Falcon because it’s from the Peggy Carter timeline.

Do I think any of those things happened? I’m not sure, but they’re possible, and so I don’t see it as a plot hole.

The massive plot hole in the room is the one mentioned above about how Thanos was able to travel to the future with that vast army of ships. We see the traitorous Nebula turn the machine on and say something like ‘the gateway is open’ so it appears to work differently than the Stark tech and the Pym Particles which allowed individuals to travel through time. I mean, how can she communicate through time? Thanos and his goons don’t come through the Quantum Gate because they’re in the sky when they attack Avengers Mansion. So, this has to be a different method of time travel but one which needs an anchor at both ends. This is a version of what Bronze posted above about Thanos reverse engineering time-travel. And to answer the question he posed about why not appear at an earlier point in time, I’m guessing Thanos needed to come through that particular Quantum Gate which must have created a portal greater than the machine itself, hence them appearing in space or Earth’s atmosphere.

I know a lot of people don’t like time travel fiction, but I love it because of this type of conundrums and contradiction it throws up.

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Folks have been complaining they thought Captain Marvel was underutilized in the movie. Kind of. She did kind of do what Fury called her for, emergency muscle. He didn't call her for character development. She did save Tony and Nebula. She took point on the early Thanos fight. She took out Thanos's mothership and  literally prevented Thanos from doing an even worse Gauntlet snap during the grand fight. The Russos and Brie Larson admitted the character was new and weren't completely sure what creative choices to take with her. Brie says she didn't figure out Carol Danvers until she started making the solo movie. But still, any underutilization of such a powerful character for me takes me back to some of the issues I have had with the Russo Brothers MCU movies going back to Winter Soldier. They take a lot of easy conveniences for the sake of plot or effect. In Infinity War, Wanda would have been way more effective on the battlefield than guarding Vision. They could have placed some guards with Viz and it would have been the same amount of protection it seemed. When Captain America calls the Avengers to descend on Vision when Thanos is about to get the Mind Stone, why wasn't Thor there immediately? Never mind going for the head, he should have been there way earlier. It was a bit of a plot convenience and the Russos seem to have trouble juggling all these different power sources effectively, for me. As far as an actual tightly woven story, they seem to do better with smaller stories like Cap and Bucky and Sam's relationship. Given all that, I loved Endgame.

Someone said 'Rumpelcaptainmarvelskin'.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I'm more than happy that Captain Marvel didn't swoop in to save the day.

This was a service to the original film Avengers and it was pulled off near-perfectly.

On a scale of 1-100, I give Endgame a 98. It did have some of the serious scenes undercut by humor and quips, as some critics warned. I also didn't care for the all-female shot. I don't see the point in segregating characters by gender or race. Doesn't make sense. Detracts, how ever very slightly, from the greatness of the film. The Steve Rogers ending, while perfect for his character, would indicate that there's at least a few branches in time, now.

[ianh]

What an awesome movie and perfect way to end the Avengers. I didn't like that Tony died but it made sense especially when Cap once commented "You're not the guy to make the sacrifice play, to lay down on a wire and let the other guy crawl over you". Thor, IM and Cap versus Thanos was awesome even though it was Fat Thor. Epic fight and just showed how strong Thanos was even without the stones. I was hoping to see Hulk versus Thanos but seeing SW against him kicking his butt was just as good.

I'm glad they focused on the original 6 with Ant-man especially focusing on him and Hawkeye as they both missed out on Infinity War. SO HAPPY that it wasn't a Captain Marvel saves the universe and they really minimized her but she had key points in the story. I always thought it ridiculous that her with the power of 1 stone could go toe to toe with Thanos with all 6 stones so glad they didn't go that route but she still did ok against him. 

As Thor has always been my favorite Avenger even growing up it kinda sucked seeing him go downhill but thinking about it, Thor has lost more than anyone really. His mother, father, brother , best friends and Asgard with most of it's population all destroyed. How could he not just give up after that? It's totally understandable. I'm super excited that it looks like he'll be in GoTG now. Makes for a lot of great humor.

AS far as Cap and the shield goes. I think people are putting way to much thought into that. He lived his life with Peggy the way he should have. Wonder if he ever told her he mugged down with her niece OR if she ever actually was born? Thor took his hammer out of his past timeline as well. Just one of those things. I didn't think Sam was the right person to get it though. He has no powers and I have no interest in watching the Falcon and SW series but oh well it was a nice gesture I guess. 

I think the MCU going forward will still do good but nothing like this and Avengers again. Without IM and Cap it just doesn't work. It's like taking Superman and Batman out of JL. Just doesn't work and I don't see the newer characters having that star power to do this again. Certainly not Brie Larson. You can see in all the interviews the other actors just did not like her at ALL.

[Bosco685]

15 minutes ago, Comicopolis said:

The Old Man Cap living his life out with Peggy while hiding from everybody theory doesn’t work according to the Russo’s concept of how time travel works. They make this very clear in the movie through Banner’s explanation that anything you change in the past doesn’t affect the future but only creates new timelines/realities, hence the mention of other time travel movies such as Back to the Future. This point is rammed home when Nebula kills her ‘old’ self and doesn’t blink out of existence.

When Cap goes back to return the stones and the hammer and then decides to stay with Peggy that changes her future and creates a new timeline/reality so him living it out means he won’t appear in the Endgame future. There’s not enough time at the end of the movie to explain it – and not everything has to be explained in fiction – but it is explainable.

Cap has the Stark time travel tech and Pym Particles, assumingly more than for one trip in case something goes wrong, so he can live out his life in the new Peggy Carter existence and still return to the point where we see him sitting on the bench in the Endgame timeline. Remember, he must be over 100 by then so Peggy will have died, and he wants to get back to let his original friends know what happened to him.

So, he has the science to do it and reason to do it but he stills need to arrive through one of the Quantum Gates, and he doesn’t do it at the end of the movie because we first see him sitting on the bench. But he could have come through any of the other Quantum Gates at different times, such as the one that Hank Pym builds in Ant-Man and the Wasp – when it’s turned on, and they’re all distracted by fighting Ghost. Old Man Cap could also appear through the one in the back of the van at the end of that movie when all three of the Pym’s are snapped out of existence and Scott is trapped in the Quantum Realm.

More likely is he reappears in the time between the Avengers setting off to retrieve the stones and their return. Any of those happening would also explain how he was able to bring his shield for Falcon because it’s from the Peggy Carter timeline.

Do I think any of those things happened? I’m not sure, but they’re possible, and so I don’t see it as a plot hole.

The massive plot hole in the room is the one mentioned above about how Thanos was able to travel to the future with that vast army of ships. We see the traitorous Nebula turn the machine on and say something like ‘the gateway is open’ so it appears to work differently than the Stark tech and the Pym Particles which allowed individuals to travel through time. I mean, how can she communicate through time? Thanos and his goons don’t come through the Quantum Gate because they’re in the sky when they attack Avengers Mansion. So, this has to be a different method of time travel but one which needs an anchor at both ends. This is a version of what Bronze posted above about Thanos reverse engineering time-travel. And to answer the question he posed about why not appear at an earlier point in time, I’m guessing Thanos needed to come through that particular Quantum Gate which must have created a portal greater than the machine itself, hence them appearing in space or Earth’s atmosphere.

I know a lot of people don’t like time travel fiction, but I love it because of this type of conundrums and contradiction it throws up.

Well put!

And with the different Peggy timeline and this leading to a potential alternate shield, even more.

But then if you overthink these timeline stories, would Peggy be throwing herself at helping found SHIELD like she did if she now had Steve Rogers in her life? Or maybe she would do it even more, as together armed with Steve's future-knowledge they would be aware Hydra was out there looking to infiltrate any intelligence agency it felt was strong enough. So as a bait effort, together they pull together SHIELD knowing it will attract Hydra attention.

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, ianh said:

...Thanos but seeing SW against him kicking his butt was just as good.

This was so awesome! They finally let Scarlet Witch cut loose, and man did she deliver. She took over the role others assumed was going to be Captain Marvel swooping in to save the day. She beat him so bad, he had to bomb his own troops to disrupt the battle.

[krighton]

Ive tried to suspend belief and disregard most of the plot holes....

what did cap do with mjolnir, put it in the cupboard?  So now there's 2 mjolnirs in the timeline?

I must have missed completely Ms Marvel losing the hot potato infinity gauntlet, all of a sudden it was on the ground....

i would think she would be the only one to be able to use the gauntlet and not suffer any long lasting effects...or maybe doctor strange....and where were the heroes when everyone returned, Hawkeyes wife calls but no calls from all the heroic muscle

What the heck were they trying to do with the gauntlet, just run it all over the battlefield until the bad guys got it?  Marvel should have taken it to outer space

Why worry about putting the stones back since they dorked with the timeline so much already

How the heck did Cap put the stone back that was guarded by Red Skull....and why is Natasha's death more permanent than a death caused by the infinity gauntlet....so now the infinity gauntlet has limitations and can't bring someone back to life?

Ms Marvel could have used the infinity gauntlet to bring tony back to life, or can it not handle that type of thing.

would it have cost more for doctor strange to say words...kind of odd no speaking at all...maybe his tongue didn't materialize with his body or cumberbatch wanted more $ for a speaking role.

[@therealsilvermane]

45 minutes ago, ianh said:

I think the MCU going forward will still do good but nothing like this and Avengers again. Without IM and Cap it just doesn't work. It's like taking Superman and Batman out of JL. Just doesn't work and I don't see the newer characters having that star power to do this again.

What!? It's because of Iron Man and Captain America that the Avengers didn't work (as a team). You mean it doesn't work without all that in-fighting? And there have been a few MCU team ups the past few years sans RDJ and Chris Evans and they seemed to do just fine. Guardians of the Galaxy don't need them. Thor's little team of heroes in Ragnarok didn't need them. Carol Danvers even had her own little team with Nick Fury, Maria, and Talos and it was a fun adventure. The Avengers without the tension between Stark and Rogers will be different, but they'll be just fine. There are different stories you can tell other than a Civil War. How about an Avengers team that actually gets along and is functional? What a concept!

45 minutes ago, ianh said:

I didn't think Sam was the right person to get it though. He has no powers and I have no interest in watching the Falcon and SW series but oh well it was a nice gesture I guess.

Sam was the perfect person. He's still a soldier and cares about the good fight. Bucky is like Steve, he just wants to rest after living a lifetime murdering people for Hydra and the Russians. Sam may need a suit and weapons upgrade (Vibranium?) to be a more suitable Cap/Falcon hybrid, but he'll do just fine, too.

Edited April 29, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[theCapraAegagrus]

5 minutes ago, krighton said:

what did cap do with mjolnir, put it in the cupboard?  So now there's 2 mjolnirs in the timeline?

I must have missed completely Ms Marvel losing the hot potato infinity gauntlet, all of a sudden it was on the ground....

i would think she would be the only one to be able to use the gauntlet and not suffer any long lasting effects...or maybe doctor strange....and where were the heroes when everyone returned, Hawkeyes wife calls but no calls from all the heroic muscle

What the heck were they trying to do with the gauntlet, just run it all over the battlefield until the bad guys got it?  Marvel should have taken it to outer space

Why worry about putting the stones back since they dorked with the timeline so much already

How the heck did Cap put the stone back that was guarded by Red Skull....and why is Natasha's death more permanent than a death caused by the infinity gauntlet....so now the infinity gauntlet has limitations and can't bring someone back to life?

Ms Marvel could have used the infinity gauntlet to bring tony back to life, or can it not handle that type of thing.

would it have cost more for doctor strange to say words...kind of odd no speaking at all...maybe his tongue didn't materialize with his body or cumberbatch wanted more $ for a speaking role.

Cap returned Mjolnir to Asgard so that The Dark World played out as we saw. Same as he did with all 6 Infinity Stones.

The other Avengers were most likely rejoicing in being alive again... Took a few minutes to re-assemble. It's not like Strange was able to tell all of The Decimated that they were going to die, then have to re-assemble in NY when they come back to life.

They were trying to take the Gauntlet to the Quantum Tunnel...

They don't want tons of branch realities to exist, because that means that many more Thanos exist, and that means he could become aware of those alternate realities, etc etc etc. Pretty important stuff that was told to us multiple times. They needed to prevent as many branch realities as possible.

If they bring Nat back, the Soul Stone disappears back to Vormir. That much was made clear by Red Skull. "A Soul for a Soul."

If Danvers brings Tony back, then a new branch reality is created. Bad idea.

You know that movies are moving pictures, right? Not everything needs dialogue...

[theCapraAegagrus]

Also, Bucky is the White Wolf now. Sam is a perfect and logical choice to be Captain America.

[Grendel72]

Am curious. If u needed to sacrifice someone u loved to get the soul stone, and Thanos sacrificed Gamora to get it, then in the case of Hawkeye and Black Widow, he didnt really sacrifice her.  In fact both of them were sacrificing themselves for the other. Does that count ?

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, Grendel72 said:

Am curious. If u needed to sacrifice someone u loved to get the soul stone, and Thanos sacrificed Gamora to get it, then in the case of Hawkeye and Black Widow, he didnt really sacrifice her.  In fact both of them were sacrificing themselves for the other. Does that count ?

"You must lose that which you love."

As long as something truly loved is yeeted off the cliff - that's all that matters.

[@therealsilvermane]

7 minutes ago, krighton said:

Ive tried to suspend belief and disregard most of the plot holes....

what did cap do with mjolnir, put it in the cupboard?  So now there's 2 mjolnirs in the timeline?

I must have missed completely Ms Marvel losing the hot potato infinity gauntlet, all of a sudden it was on the ground....

i would think she would be the only one to be able to use the gauntlet and not suffer any long lasting effects...or maybe doctor strange....and where were the heroes when everyone returned, Hawkeyes wife calls but no calls from all the heroic muscle

What the heck were they trying to do with the gauntlet, just run it all over the battlefield until the bad guys got it?  Marvel should have taken it to outer space

Why worry about putting the stones back since they dorked with the timeline so much already

How the heck did Cap put the stone back that was guarded by Red Skull....and why is Natasha's death more permanent than a death caused by the infinity gauntlet....so now the infinity gauntlet has limitations and can't bring someone back to life?

Ms Marvel could have used the infinity gauntlet to bring tony back to life, or can it not handle that type of thing.

would it have cost more for doctor strange to say words...kind of odd no speaking at all...maybe his tongue didn't materialize with his body or cumberbatch wanted more $ for a speaking role.

I think you need to watch the movie a second time. Most of your gripes are explained or aren't plot holes.

Rogers returns Mjolnir 2 to Asgard at the end. Carol lost the gauntlet because Thanos punched her. Carol could have used the gauntlet maybe, but Tony chose to end this thing once and for all. They were trying to bring the Gauntlet to the Quantum tunnel in the van to send it into the Quantum realm. Putting the stones back at the same time they were taken would prevent an alternate reality as explained by the Ancient One. Cap and the Soul Stone's return could make for an interesting tale, but it's not a plot hole. Maybe he didn't return it to Vormir? Maybe that's how it ends up with Adam Warlock in GOTG Vol 3?  Natasha and Gamora are in the Soul Stone and according to the comics, that's not a complete death. 

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, Grendel72 said:

Am curious. If u needed to sacrifice someone u loved to get the soul stone, and Thanos sacrificed Gamora to get it, then in the case of Hawkeye and Black Widow, he didnt really sacrifice her.  In fact both of them were sacrificing themselves for the other. Does that count ?

I said the very same thing early on in this thread, and totally agree.

Clint did not sacrifice Natasha. As a self-sacrifice action, she allowed herself to fall off the cliff. Like this plot point. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

It took me until the 3rd watch to feel like I truly have an understanding of most, if not all, of the movie.

I was also more excited to see it the 3rd time than bother previous days.

There are over 100 callbacks and homages in this movie, to the previous 20 films. A ton of them in the 3rd Act. It's crazy.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I must advise:

Do not bring your pre-middle school children to opening weekend for a PG-13 movie that is 3 hours long.

Thursday night, someone brings their 6-year old kid that is talking during some of the silent and somber moments.

Saturday night, a family with 2 kids goes to the bathroom a literally combined 12 times. When the 2 parents go to the bathroom at the same time, 1 kid bothers the grandpa, "I need to go check on them", multiple times.

This is p&*s-poor etiquette. And this is in what I would call one of the more "upper-class" theaters. Normally, the people that attend openers are the perfect moviegoers. I guess it isn't safe there anymore. At this point I'm starting to support the "streaming" opener where you watch it in the comfort of your own home. I don't want theaters to go away, but people are ruining it for everyone.

[ChasingKingKirby]

16 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

What!? It's because of Iron Man and Captain America that the Avengers didn't work (as a team). You mean it doesn't work without all that in-fighting? And there have been a few MCU team ups the past few years sans RDJ and Chris Evans and they seemed to do just fine. Guardians of the Galaxy don't need them. Thor's little team of heroes in Ragnarok didn't need them. Carol Danvers even had her own little team with Nick Fury, Maria, and Talos and it was a fun adventure. The Avengers without the tension between Stark and Rogers will be different, but they'll be just fine. There are different stories you can tell other than a Civil War. How about an Avengers team that actually gets along and is functional? What a concept!

Sam was the perfect person. He's still a soldier and cares about the good fight. Bucky is like Steve, he just wants to rest after living a lifetime murdering people for Hydra and the Russians. Sam may need a suit and weapons upgrade (Vibranium?) to be a more suitable Cap/Falcon hybrid, but he'll do just fine, too.

Disagree totally.  Where's the star power?   Cap and Iron Man ARE the Avengers.  Don't forget, Thor's gone too.  And so is Natasha and Vision.   We're left with the supporting cast to reform the team.  Ugh.   Outside of Tchalla, you can't support a big budget movie with that crew.  Teenage Spidey is entertaining.  Cap Marvel is way over powered and has the personality of drying paint.  Professor Hulk is annoying and pinning for Nat.  Who leads the new team?  

Sam was absolutely the wrong person to give the shield too.   His gimmick is entertaining and hard to replace.  It also made no sense.   He gives the shield to a guy that's been missing in action for five years that Cap has known for a couple years instead of his lifelong friend that is one of the best hand to hand combat fighters in the MCU?   I just don't get it.

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

"You must lose that which you love."

As long as something truly loved is yeeted off the cliff - that's all that matters.

What the Red Skull noted to Thanos in Infinity War was the following: "The Stone demands a sacrifice. In order to take the Stone, you must lose that which you love. The Soul... for a soul."

 

To sacrifice something, I would think you have to consciously give something. Not that person falling on a sword to help you unconsciously make that decision because you can't do it yourself. Then that isn't a sacrifice.

[@therealsilvermane]

8 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I said the very same thing early on in this thread, and totally agree.

Clint did not sacrifice Natasha. As a self-sacrifice action, she allowed herself to fall off the cliff. Like this plot point. 

Clint sacrificed his best friend Natasha. He didn't want to, but this one counts. The Soul Stone is hungry. It'll take what it can get, at least, according to Jim Starlin.