Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS 1 1

[ExNihilo]

19 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

This is a very interesting interview that can't be shared in the non-spoiler Endgame thread.

Avengers: Endgame directors answer Captain America mystery

 

I love the Steve/Bucky relationship.  That moment in the movie when he says "I'm gonna miss you" just shows how connected the two are despite spending large swaths of their lives apart.

[bronze_rules]

47 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Captain America hasn’t been a big selling comic for Marvel since the Golden Age. It’s had a bump here and there, but it consistently showed publication numbers about 40-45% less than Amazing Spider-man. Definite B-list.  

Iron Man has had a blip here and there but again, based upon Comichron publication numbers, it was consistently 35-40% less than ASM, who was an A-lister. B-list. 

Really, Thor and Hulk have put up better numbers over the years. 

Ultimately, how they sold as a comic doesn’t matter. Guardians of the Galaxy was never a big deal and maybe a D list team and they had a huge hit. Iron Man became the biggest movie franchise they had. Black Panther and Captain Marvel both have Billion Dollar movies. 

And Ant Man. 

He couldn’t pull up Captain Marvel numbers but him and Doctor Strange (another B-C lister who never could keep a comic series going) were profitable and made enjoyable movies. 

Bottom line is these movies aren’t made for comic nerds. They’re made for everyone. For a wide range of diverse people and they will reflect that in the movies.

Close minded comic book fans won’t like it.

Bye. See ya. 

Personally I never thought much of GOTG. Loved the movie. Wasn’t much of a Black Panther comic reader. Greatly enjoyed the movie. LOVED the amazing spider-man. The movies are ok. 

Its all a different Universe based upon selling as many seats as possible. The little itty bitty printed comic book niche market is nothing. Nothing. 

No one reads Aquaman. HUGE movie. Shazam hasn’t had a regular comic in decades. It still did a third of a million worldwide. 

Aquaman (Malayasian director) did the same as Spider-man Homecoming in domestic box office and CRUSHED it overseas. AQUAMAN. It beat the #1 merchandised character on the planet at the box office. 

AQUAMAN.

A-list, B-list, D-LIST, male or female, black, white, Asian - it doesn’t matter. Comic nerds can boycott it all they want. The studios are making diverse movies and having success with it. 

Cant wait to see what’s next. 

What they've clearly shown us is that it's possible to entirely change years of perceived value and tier of characters by re-launching them into a different medium and time frame (same for DC), with modified storylines. I would have never perceived nor expected the success of GOTG, Captain Marvel, or Black Panther, for that matter. Same for Aquaman and Wonder Woman. But all in all, I'm really glad there's plenty of enough success to keep the momentum going. Wasn't thrilled bout Sgt. Fury at the outset, but he definitely was enough to carry the character to success (perhaps even beyond the original).

Edited April 30, 2019 by bronze_rules

[JazzMan]

Soooooooo.....where is Gamora?  Is that the going to be the plot to GOTG vol3 or did she get dusted?  You see Quill attempting to search for her at the very end, but what's your take?

[justafan]

18 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

sorry what?  that's a lot of words for an already complex discussion (time travel is just inherently...complicated).

As I understand it (and i only did like college intro to physics so I'm likely way off base), but going back in time and taking the stone creates a branched universe (as described by The Ancient One).  Tony's chrono MacGuffin allows the heroes to return to their prime universe in order to use the gauntlet and return everyone home.  As soon as the job is done, Steve returns all 6 stones back to where they were taken from.  Effectively, only seconds would have passed in the other multiverses (for example as soon as Hulk disappeared with the time stone from The Ancient One, Steve would have popped up mere seconds later to give it back), meaning no one would be the wiser and nothing would have changed, thus maintaining the prime timeline.

Now, in some cases, things changed in these alternate branches creating alternate realities.  For example, once Thanos learned that the heroes were in his timeline, he altered the course of what he did in the Prime universe, thus irrevocably creating a branched universe.  And as soon as he was dusted, that branched universe now continues onward as though Thanos ceased to exist from 2014 onwards.

Where I get confused is Steve traveling back in time.  By being with Peggy, he clearly alters the past and thus creates a new branch.  So how does he wind up on the bench?  (And with the shield no less.)  By all accounts, the only way back for him into the prime universe would be via the chrono MacGuffin.

Despite your lack of Quantum and classical physics education I do believe you've hit the proverbial nail on the head of the key parameter that defines whether a timeline remains a part of the original "prime" timeline or spawns a new branch in MCU time-travel.  Based on the Ancient One's explanation of a linear timeline.  When anything is "removed or added" to a timeline, it spawns a new timeline which explains why the butterfly effect has no impact in any of the changes to the original timeline.  What they gloss over and fail to explain using Iron Man's MacGuffin is how they solve what that kid from Sliders screwed up in how to not only go back to the correct times in their own timeline but also the correct timelines once multiples are spawned by their actions.

The key areas I can think of are:

1st Jump: Clint takes glove from his home.  2 new nearly identical parallel timelines spawns (making 3 timelines):

A. where that glove no longer exists

B. where 2 gloves now exist along with Clint what we call the "new prime" timeline

C. where only 1 glove still exists but Clint no longer exists: original prime timeline. 

Now here's where an assumption is required and the MCU's definition of time travel rules imply.  When Clint returns to the original prime timeline with the glove does that actually merge B & C timelines into one?  For the premise of the MCU time travel rules I believe it is intended that they do merge while timeline A continues on unless Cap also took back the glove.

2nd Jump (team jump):  This spawns 8 new (albeit only 6 are temporary) timelines due to my assumption that they don't leave those timelines at the exact same time.  Rather, they leave at different times in those timelines but arrive back to the prime timeline at the exact same time preserving that timeline.  However, each time one of the heroes returns back from the timelines in the past, those new timelines begin to collapse into a single timeline.

A. Prime timeline where the Avengers no longer exist since they time traveled to the past.

B. Minus Mind gem timeline where all the other stones still exist including the space gem but the mind gem doesn't until the other heroes also exit.  However in this timeline: Loki has the Tesseract/Space gem and doesn't end up in the Asgardian prison but possibly helps to defeat the dark elves and doesn't fake his death and exile Odin.  He may, however, launch his own assault on Asguard with the space gem. Since these events occur prior to the events of the Reality gem being stolen, this becomes its own timeline separate from both that one and the prime timeline.  However, events continue to Ragnarok with him either helping to defeat Thor's sister or Asgard being destroyed and ending up onboard the ship before Thanos attacks and may still kill him.  But wait there's more.  Without the mind gem, Avengers Age of Ultron never really happens since Hydra never gets the mind gem.  Presumably Winter Soldier events still occur and Avengers still attack and discover and battle the twins: Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver but Ultron is never created -at least not at the sentient level he became and Vision is never created.  Sakovia never falls and Zemo never kills Black Panther's father nor reveals the death of Howard Stark by Winter Soldier.  Cap and Sam find Bucky and help him out and form their own team.  Iron Man and Cap may eventually hug it out at the end of Civil War with Tony never knowing the truth or they may continue to not speak.  At this point is is questionable if Thanos is satisfied with having 5 of the 6 stones and the events of Infinity War proceed but without the snap and instead a more visceral battle.  But before all that happens, the other heroes exit and only the space gem leaving Thanos with nothing to use.

C. Minus Time gem timeline where all the other gems still exist but the time gem doesn't until the other heroes also exit.  Dr. Strange comes along but never has the time gem to defeat Dormamu and hence the world ends in chaos and destruction.

D. Minus Reality gem & Mjolnir timeline where all the other gems still exist but the Reality gem doesn't until the other heroes also exit.  Ripple effect on this timeline: (Dark World - Thor presumably still defeats the dark elves even without Mjolnir because the dark elves don't have the Aether so they either don't have a reason to invade and battle the Asgardians or Thor learns of his inherent power earlier and crushes them.  The Reality Gem is never taken to the Collector.  Tesseract is still in the Asgardian Vault & Loki in prison.  Loki doesn't fake his death, Odin is never exhiled but presumably still dies and Ragnarok still occurs presumably with similar results and possibly ending in him onboard the ship.

E. Minus Soul Gem + Gamora isn't in the soul gem (sacrifice) timeline where all the other stones still exist but the Soul Gem doesn't. Presumably by this point Thanos has already given up since this is the last gem before the mind gem to be taken.  The heroes should have already vacated this timeline by now which should collapse it along with the others.

F. Minus Power Gem timeline + 2 Nebulas where all the other stones still exist until the heroes and Thanos exit.  This is the the first stone Thanos acquires (after he stupidly gives Loki the Mind gem in Avengers.  However, this is the one that is required to really make Thanos successful.  Without it he realizes he doesn't stand a chance at beating or getting the others so he alters course and uses the time travel GPS to take him back to the Prime time line.  By doing this after all the other heroes have exited the other timelines, he effectively collapses this timeline to one where only the space gem exists with Loki.

G. Minus Space Gem timeline but all other stones exist possibly until the timeline reaches the time when the other heroes exit.  This one seems to violate the MCU time travel rule in that if it were to collapse into F above and result in the tesseract never being used to used to create the light engine and hence Captain Marvel who already existed at that time, it would contradict the lack of a butterfly effect in the MCU prime timeline.  Instead, what happens is this timeline remains separate from timelines A-F which results in Captain Marvel never existing, The Kree wiping out the Skrulls, the tesseract never being used to open a portal for Loki and hence the Chitari, Earth is never invaded, the Avengers never needed, and Thanos realizing the lack of a space stone simply attempts to achieve his goals using the remaining 5 stones.

So by the time our heroes return with all 6 stones we now have:

A1 timeline where no glove exists at Clint's house

2F: timeline where only the Space stone exists and Loki is still alive but Thanos, Nebula, and Gamora along with Thanos's entire army no longer exist, Vision also does not exist. In this timeline it is possible that Ego succeeded in conquering the universe if Dormammu hasn't already done so.  Maybe Captain Marvel helps out here.  This is the most f-d up timeline so it is vital the heroes return those stones when they are done but only without Thanos being made aware of their return before he leaves. This is the tricky part for Captain America.

2G. Timeline where 5 of the gems exist but the Space gem does not, Captain Marvel does not exist, Kree are dead, Avengers never assemble except to possibly fight Thanos wielding 5 stones.  This time line may result in a Thanos victory due to the lack of Carol Danvers.

2A PrimeTime line where the Avengers return with all 6 stones.  At this point a new timeline is created since the Avengers have now added the stones explained below.

3. Due to the addition of the stones we now have:

2A Old Prime Timeline where Avengers exist but no stones exist

3A New Prime Timeline where the Avengers exist but now have the stones and use the stones to bring back all the heroes and everyone that has died. But we assume that since they arrive back about the same time they departed 3A and 2A collapse into each other. Until Thanos shows up this timeline continues on with Iron Man still being alive and the stones being returned to the 2F and 2G timelines to collapse those back down into each other.  But for that to work an alternative of 2F must exist where Thanos never learns of the time travel.  Since we aren't presented with that reality, 2A and 3A collapse into 3B.

3B Thanos and his army enter and creates another timeline that we end up with at the end of the movie but due to what was explained above, it ends up being the same timeline merged.

4. Cap returns the stones to 2F and 2G to merge the 2 back.  If he does it around the same time they left, everything should collapse back into 1 timeline.  However, I suspect he was content with just ensuring all timelines were protected.  For this to work Cap must return the stones to those timelines at any point before their significance becomes impactful on the timeline in either a good or bad way.

For 2F stones:

The Time stone should be any time before it is actually needed by the Ancient One (i.e. before Dr. Strange arrives)

For the Power Stone it can actually be any time after Thanos exists that timeline.

For the Reality Gem it would be nice if he returned it once the threat of the Dark Elves had passed where Thors mother might still be alive and Odin would know what to do with it.  However, he likely just returned it to Thor/Odin along with Mjolnir and hoped for the best.  But to prevent a possible temptation from Thanos, he should do so once Thanos is known to have exited the timeline.

For the Soul Gem...I honestly have no idea.  that idea with meeting the red skull would be cool but he would need a space ship to get there.  What is more likely to happen is he gives it to Thor or Captain Marvel to hide.  Maybe he was able to exchange the soul gem for Natasha and she returns with him to the 50's.

For the Mind Gem...he could give it right back to Hydra and let the events play out leading to Sakovia, Vision, and Civil War which would actually allow Vision to exist.  However, I think what is more likely is that he bypasses Hydra and gives it to Shuri in Wakanda to try and revive Vision.  While there he likely also asks for a new shield to be made.

for the Space stone he has to correct not 1 but 2 timelines if he really wants to fix things.  He must go back to 2F and prevent the space stone from falling into Loki's hands and then go back and replace the space stone back at the Shield lab in the 60's/70's to ensure Captain Marvel gets created in that time line.  By doing both, he can effectively collapse both of those timelines into each other eliminating 2F and 2G.

And so if he sticks it out in the past that creates a final revised timeline 4A we have:

A1 timeline where no glove exists at Clints house

2B Prime timeline where Avengers beat Thanos and send Cap back

4A. New timeline with 2 Caps where he lives out a life with Agent Carter until she dies and is old himself and before he makes the jump back which he MUST reappear back at 2B at the same time as he left in order to merge those 2 timelines, he goes to Wakanda and asks them to make another Shield for him perhaps he does this at the same time as he gives them the Mind stone to restore Vision. But I honestly like the idea that he just lived out his life in old age and walked there quietly as an old man and sat down.

Ok so my interpretation allows for Vision to be restored, Natasha to be returned, explains how he got a new shield and how we end up with only 2-3 left over timelines one of which is that stupid Glove.

ok I think I need to go watch it a few more times to get it completely right as I'm sure someone will point out a whole bunch of reasons why this all falls apart.

 

 

 

[ExNihilo]

1 hour ago, JazzMan said:

Soooooooo.....where is Gamora?

I'll do you one better...who's Gamora? 

[sd2416]

8 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

I'll do you one better...who's Gamora? 

Why is Gamora?

[JazzMan]

[Bird]

Better yet even still...WHEN is Gamora?

[justafan]

7 hours ago, TwoPiece said:

You didn't buy tickets for all 3 days when they first went on sale, duh!

I couldn't even get onto the amc website or a for the first 8 hours of its release and when I did all friday, sat, and Sunday showings were sold out. 

 

7 hours ago, sd2416 said:

Emily was originally cast as Black Widow, but had to drop out for scheduling conflicts with Gulliver's Travels. 
She also was in the running for Peggy Carter in Cap.   

I wonder if she could go back if she would choose a different option.

[ExNihilo]

8 minutes ago, justafan said:

I couldn't even get onto the amc website or a for the first 8 hours of its release and when I did all friday, sat, and Sunday showings were sold out. 

 

I wonder if she could go back if she would choose a different option.

It's still not too late to cast her in some other role.  I don't know which, but I like her enough that I would be happy to have her in the Marvel family.

[chezmtghut]

I think they could bring anyone back from different timelines at this point if they really wanted to. I don't remember them traveling to the 50's though, it was 1970 & believe when Cap travels back to return the tesseract, he remains in 1970 with Peggy & they grow old together. Present day 2023 Steve Rogers at the end of the film looked 80+ years old, because he was. Just because they played a 50's song in the end, doesn't mean that was the year he went back to.

Another plot hole is how did Thanos even got his ship to 2023 in the 1st place when Nebula used the last of the Pym particles to get there herself.

[@therealsilvermane]

29 minutes ago, chezmtghut said:

I think they could bring anyone back from different timelines at this point if they really wanted to. I don't remember them traveling to the 50's though, it was 1970 & believe when Cap travels back to return the tesseract, he remains in 1970 with Peggy & they grow old together. Present day 2023 Steve Rogers at the end of the film looked 80+ years old, because he was. Just because they played a 50's song in the end, doesn't mean that was the year he went back to.

Another plot hole is how did Thanos even got his ship to 2023 in the 1st place when Nebula used the last of the Pym particles to get there herself.

It's very possible Thanos simply had the Pym Particles and Stark Time Device replicated.

Below is a picture of the car that drives by the home that Peggy and Steve are in. The other photo is allegedly of a set on Endgame. The car is a 1946 DeSoto Deluxe. My theory is that Steve went back to about the time he went on ice, 1945, and met Peggy for that dance.

Edited May 1, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[krighton]

7 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

Alternate branch realities are created as soon as some change occurs in the timeline.  In this example, Tony always has a run in with the Senator in the lobby, but once Antman gives him a mild heart problem, a branch reality is created.  Thus, Loki only possesses the cube in that reality, not the Prime reality.

Captain Marvel has come to be the biggest thing I've been upset about in all the MCU.  Even more upsetting than Thor Dark World (the worst MCU movie).  I can't stop thinking about how overpowered she is.  In Hickman's run, she crashes into Hulk and starts pummeling him.  When the panel turns to Hulk, he's just relaxing and waiting for her to finish before punching her into space.  In the movie, Thanos uses a headbutt on Hulk and stuns/knocks him back before thoroughly wiping the floor with him.  (In Endgame, he does the same to Captain Marvel and it does nothing.)  Therefore, if A > B, and B > C, then A > C.  Similarly in the comics Thanos routintely defeats the likes of Silver Surfer.  So we're saying that Captain Marvel is stronger than the Silver Surfer too?  Her power levels are just absurd and it bothers me sooooo much.  :\

yes, but, i think this hulk/banner mutation is quite a bit weaker than the original.

[@therealsilvermane]

28 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

It's very possible Thanos simply had the Pym Particles and Stark Time Device replicated.

Below is a picture of the car that drives by the home that Peggy and Steve are in. The other photo is allegedly of a set on Endgame. The car is a 1946 DeSoto Deluxe. My theory is that Steve went back to about the time he went on ice, 1945, and met Peggy for that dance.

 

The song on the radio is "It's Been a Long, Long Time", which apparently was a radio hit in 1945-6. 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[chezmtghut]

2 hours ago, chezmtghut said:

I think they could bring anyone back from different timelines at this point if they really wanted to. I don't remember them traveling to the 50's though, it was 1970 & believe when Cap travels back to return the tesseract, he remains in 1970 with Peggy & they grow old together. Present day 2023 Steve Rogers at the end of the film looked 80+ years old, because he was. Just because they played a 50's song in the end, doesn't mean that was the year he went back to.

Another plot hole is how did Thanos even got his ship to 2023 in the 1st place when Nebula used the last of the Pym particles to get there herself.

 

1 hour ago, @therealsilvermane said:

It's very possible Thanos simply had the Pym Particles and Stark Time Device replicated.

Below is a picture of the car that drives by the home that Peggy and Steve are in. The other photo is allegedly of a set on Endgame. The car is a 1946 DeSoto Deluxe. My theory is that Steve went back to about the time he went on ice, 1945, and met Peggy for that dance.

Fair enough on the Steve/Peggy timeline explanation but to say Thanos probably just replicated Pym particles & Stark's time device seems like an oversimplification to me. It feels like anything could be explained away without a plot using that theory.

Edited May 1, 2019 by chezmtghut

[DomUga]

So theres still a frozen Captain America somewhere right? If old Cap dies they can just fish out the frozen one? 

[@therealsilvermane]

Steve and Peggy's song also made an appearance in Winter Soldier...

 

[ExNihilo]

5 hours ago, justafan said:

Despite your lack of Quantum and classical physics education I do believe you've hit the proverbial nail on the head of the key parameter that defines whether a timeline remains a part of the original "prime" timeline or spawns a new branch in MCU time-travel.  Based on the Ancient One's explanation of a linear timeline.  When anything is "removed or added" to a timeline, it spawns a new timeline which explains why the butterfly effect has no impact in any of the changes to the original timeline.  What they gloss over and fail to explain using Iron Man's MacGuffin is how they solve what that kid from Sliders screwed up in how to not only go back to the correct times in their own timeline but also the correct timelines once multiples are spawned by their actions.

The key areas I can think of are:

1st Jump: Clint takes glove from his home.  2 new nearly identical parallel timelines spawns (making 3 timelines):

A. where that glove no longer exists

B. where 2 gloves now exist along with Clint what we call the "new prime" timeline

C. where only 1 glove still exists but Clint no longer exists: original prime timeline. 

Now here's where an assumption is required and the MCU's definition of time travel rules imply.  When Clint returns to the original prime timeline with the glove does that actually merge B & C timelines into one?  For the premise of the MCU time travel rules I believe it is intended that they do merge while timeline A continues on unless Cap also took back the glove.

2nd Jump (team jump):  This spawns 8 new (albeit only 6 are temporary) timelines due to my assumption that they don't leave those timelines at the exact same time.  Rather, they leave at different times in those timelines but arrive back to the prime timeline at the exact same time preserving that timeline.  However, each time one of the heroes returns back from the timelines in the past, those new timelines begin to collapse into a single timeline.

A. Prime timeline where the Avengers no longer exist since they time traveled to the past.

B. Minus Mind gem timeline where all the other stones still exist including the space gem but the mind gem doesn't until the other heroes also exit.  However in this timeline: Loki has the Tesseract/Space gem and doesn't end up in the Asgardian prison but possibly helps to defeat the dark elves and doesn't fake his death and exile Odin.  He may, however, launch his own assault on Asguard with the space gem. Since these events occur prior to the events of the Reality gem being stolen, this becomes its own timeline separate from both that one and the prime timeline.  However, events continue to Ragnarok with him either helping to defeat Thor's sister or Asgard being destroyed and ending up onboard the ship before Thanos attacks and may still kill him.  But wait there's more.  Without the mind gem, Avengers Age of Ultron never really happens since Hydra never gets the mind gem.  Presumably Winter Soldier events still occur and Avengers still attack and discover and battle the twins: Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver but Ultron is never created -at least not at the sentient level he became and Vision is never created.  Sakovia never falls and Zemo never kills Black Panther's father nor reveals the death of Howard Stark by Winter Soldier.  Cap and Sam find Bucky and help him out and form their own team.  Iron Man and Cap may eventually hug it out at the end of Civil War with Tony never knowing the truth or they may continue to not speak.  At this point is is questionable if Thanos is satisfied with having 5 of the 6 stones and the events of Infinity War proceed but without the snap and instead a more visceral battle.  But before all that happens, the other heroes exit and only the space gem leaving Thanos with nothing to use.

C. Minus Time gem timeline where all the other gems still exist but the time gem doesn't until the other heroes also exit.  Dr. Strange comes along but never has the time gem to defeat Dormamu and hence the world ends in chaos and destruction.

D. Minus Reality gem & Mjolnir timeline where all the other gems still exist but the Reality gem doesn't until the other heroes also exit.  Ripple effect on this timeline: (Dark World - Thor presumably still defeats the dark elves even without Mjolnir because the dark elves don't have the Aether so they either don't have a reason to invade and battle the Asgardians or Thor learns of his inherent power earlier and crushes them.  The Reality Gem is never taken to the Collector.  Tesseract is still in the Asgardian Vault & Loki in prison.  Loki doesn't fake his death, Odin is never exhiled but presumably still dies and Ragnarok still occurs presumably with similar results and possibly ending in him onboard the ship.

E. Minus Soul Gem + Gamora isn't in the soul gem (sacrifice) timeline where all the other stones still exist but the Soul Gem doesn't. Presumably by this point Thanos has already given up since this is the last gem before the mind gem to be taken.  The heroes should have already vacated this timeline by now which should collapse it along with the others.

F. Minus Power Gem timeline + 2 Nebulas where all the other stones still exist until the heroes and Thanos exit.  This is the the first stone Thanos acquires (after he stupidly gives Loki the Mind gem in Avengers.  However, this is the one that is required to really make Thanos successful.  Without it he realizes he doesn't stand a chance at beating or getting the others so he alters course and uses the time travel GPS to take him back to the Prime time line.  By doing this after all the other heroes have exited the other timelines, he effectively collapses this timeline to one where only the space gem exists with Loki.

G. Minus Space Gem timeline but all other stones exist possibly until the timeline reaches the time when the other heroes exit.  This one seems to violate the MCU time travel rule in that if it were to collapse into F above and result in the tesseract never being used to used to create the light engine and hence Captain Marvel who already existed at that time, it would contradict the lack of a butterfly effect in the MCU prime timeline.  Instead, what happens is this timeline remains separate from timelines A-F which results in Captain Marvel never existing, The Kree wiping out the Skrulls, the tesseract never being used to open a portal for Loki and hence the Chitari, Earth is never invaded, the Avengers never needed, and Thanos realizing the lack of a space stone simply attempts to achieve his goals using the remaining 5 stones.

So by the time our heroes return with all 6 stones we now have:

A1 timeline where no glove exists at Clint's house

2F: timeline where only the Space stone exists and Loki is still alive but Thanos, Nebula, and Gamora along with Thanos's entire army no longer exist, Vision also does not exist. In this timeline it is possible that Ego succeeded in conquering the universe if Dormammu hasn't already done so.  Maybe Captain Marvel helps out here.  This is the most f-d up timeline so it is vital the heroes return those stones when they are done but only without Thanos being made aware of their return before he leaves. This is the tricky part for Captain America.

2G. Timeline where 5 of the gems exist but the Space gem does not, Captain Marvel does not exist, Kree are dead, Avengers never assemble except to possibly fight Thanos wielding 5 stones.  This time line may result in a Thanos victory due to the lack of Carol Danvers.

2A PrimeTime line where the Avengers return with all 6 stones.  At this point a new timeline is created since the Avengers have now added the stones explained below.

3. Due to the addition of the stones we now have:

2A Old Prime Timeline where Avengers exist but no stones exist

3A New Prime Timeline where the Avengers exist but now have the stones and use the stones to bring back all the heroes and everyone that has died. But we assume that since they arrive back about the same time they departed 3A and 2A collapse into each other. Until Thanos shows up this timeline continues on with Iron Man still being alive and the stones being returned to the 2F and 2G timelines to collapse those back down into each other.  But for that to work an alternative of 2F must exist where Thanos never learns of the time travel.  Since we aren't presented with that reality, 2A and 3A collapse into 3B.

3B Thanos and his army enter and creates another timeline that we end up with at the end of the movie but due to what was explained above, it ends up being the same timeline merged.

4. Cap returns the stones to 2F and 2G to merge the 2 back.  If he does it around the same time they left, everything should collapse back into 1 timeline.  However, I suspect he was content with just ensuring all timelines were protected.  For this to work Cap must return the stones to those timelines at any point before their significance becomes impactful on the timeline in either a good or bad way.

For 2F stones:

The Time stone should be any time before it is actually needed by the Ancient One (i.e. before Dr. Strange arrives)

For the Power Stone it can actually be any time after Thanos exists that timeline.

For the Reality Gem it would be nice if he returned it once the threat of the Dark Elves had passed where Thors mother might still be alive and Odin would know what to do with it.  However, he likely just returned it to Thor/Odin along with Mjolnir and hoped for the best.  But to prevent a possible temptation from Thanos, he should do so once Thanos is known to have exited the timeline.

For the Soul Gem...I honestly have no idea.  that idea with meeting the red skull would be cool but he would need a space ship to get there.  What is more likely to happen is he gives it to Thor or Captain Marvel to hide.  Maybe he was able to exchange the soul gem for Natasha and she returns with him to the 50's.

For the Mind Gem...he could give it right back to Hydra and let the events play out leading to Sakovia, Vision, and Civil War which would actually allow Vision to exist.  However, I think what is more likely is that he bypasses Hydra and gives it to Shuri in Wakanda to try and revive Vision.  While there he likely also asks for a new shield to be made.

for the Space stone he has to correct not 1 but 2 timelines if he really wants to fix things.  He must go back to 2F and prevent the space stone from falling into Loki's hands and then go back and replace the space stone back at the Shield lab in the 60's/70's to ensure Captain Marvel gets created in that time line.  By doing both, he can effectively collapse both of those timelines into each other eliminating 2F and 2G.

And so if he sticks it out in the past that creates a final revised timeline 4A we have:

A1 timeline where no glove exists at Clints house

2B Prime timeline where Avengers beat Thanos and send Cap back

4A. New timeline with 2 Caps where he lives out a life with Agent Carter until she dies and is old himself and before he makes the jump back which he MUST reappear back at 2B at the same time as he left in order to merge those 2 timelines, he goes to Wakanda and asks them to make another Shield for him perhaps he does this at the same time as he gives them the Mind stone to restore Vision. But I honestly like the idea that he just lived out his life in old age and walked there quietly as an old man and sat down.

Ok so my interpretation allows for Vision to be restored, Natasha to be returned, explains how he got a new shield and how we end up with only 2-3 left over timelines one of which is that stupid Glove.

ok I think I need to go watch it a few more times to get it completely right as I'm sure someone will point out a whole bunch of reasons why this all falls apart.

And this is why multiversal theory is so complicated.  That's an incredibly deep analysis.  I think we should just wait for the introduction of Kang and let him sort it out for our heroes.  

[thunsicker]

7 hours ago, ianh said:

Completely disagree with this. Captain America and Iron Man have had a central role in Marvel since the 1960's and have most certainly been A-listers since then. I also said I think Avengers doesn't work without them, I didn't say anything about Marvel not being able to move on without them. I would certainly include Thor among the A-listers but Black Panther and Captain Marvel? No, don't make me laugh. Just because they have a movie doesn't make them A-listers. Both super heroes have been failing and succeeding in comics for years but you know who has been steady selling? Cap and IM, true A-listers. 

Both Black Panther and Captain Marvel huge success imo came from how close they were to an Avengers movie and a possible tie-in. I'd bet the next of each we'll see more Ant-man numbers which isn't bad but they just aren't on the level of Avengers without the Avengers movie storyline going forward.  And no, now that RDJ and Evans are done with Avengers even if they keep the series going on I doubt we see anything close to this again. MCU will be fine but it won't be breaking any records soon I think as you don't lose 2/3 main guys and don't expect to lose a step. I could be wrong and hope there is plenty of other good movies slated but i don't see anything being this epic again and certainly not with BP and CM trying to take the helm.  People just seem to think you take the comics throw in a bunch of heroes and you are good. it doesn't work that way. It took them over 10 years to develop this storyline. Can they do that again? Maybe. But not as the Avengers especially without Cap and IM. 

Cap and Iron Man were NOT A-Listers before the MCU.  When Marvel was selling off movie rights in the 90’s to avoid bankruptcy there was a reason the X-Men, Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, and the Hulk were taken.  Cap and Iron Man were what was left after the A-Listers were gone.  Are they more important now?  Are they central to the MCU?  Sure.  But to say they have always been A-Listers in the marvel canon is just wrong.  And if the MCU can make Cap and Iron Man A-listers I see no reason good stories with other characters can’t make them A-Listers too.

[Jaylam]

With all the pre-movie speculation, does the Black Knight or some iteration or mention of him appear in this movie??? (I've read some but not all of this thread, but did not come across any mention of the Black Knight at all.) I've not seen the movie yet, but I don't mind knowing at this point.