What's the true value of love? 3 3

[Timely]

What's the true value of original art? Now, before you say, "whatever someone is willing to pay for it!", here are some recent observations.

 

This week a piece of art a dealer has for sale for $50k I was interested in.  I made him a trade offer of $35k based on what I felt the art was worth.  The dealer scoffed at my offer, okay.  So, I decided to ask a few others I know what their take was on it's value.  A dealer/collector said "30ish".  A collector I asked said "$10-15k", but he also said he was not a fan of that piece, so I think he would not even pay the $10k estimate he put on it.  That's a $40,000 swing in value from the dealers ask & this particular collectors low estimate!

 

In another story, a friend of mine bought a piece of art for $1200.  I offered him $1500 hoping he would flip it for the quick $300 profit.  He declined & sold it in an auction 3 months later for $3500.  Now it's on a dealers site for $7500! So within a year it went up $6300 from my vantage point!

 

See where I'm going with this?  OA is all 1 of a kind, there is no GPA for OA.  If your lucky, you can find a past sale of that specific piece, otherwise the best you can do is find something compatible or ask others who's opinions you trust & value.

 

It seems like the OA market is more of a "wild west" where sales, ask prices & estimates are all over the place!  With comics if you have an ASM #129 in NM, you know within 10% one way or another what the thing is worth.

 

How do we combat this craziness?  Is it even possible?  Does this type of "wild west" pricing scare away potential collectors & investors?  I know it's got me worried!

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Timely

[suspense39]

Haha!  

Since ive been in this hobby I’ve been amazed how many people “know” with confidence, what things are worth.....

It seems that here’s an idea that that every time it changes hands the seller has to make some money on it.....so it’s value is more than you or the other guy paid for it. The only time I hear about people selling at a loss is at auction. Does anyone try to sell for less than they paid? 

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, Timely said:

What's the true value of original art? Now, before you say, "whatever someone is willing to pay for it!", here are some recent observations.

 

This week a piece of art a dealer has for sale for $50k I was interested in.  I made him a trade offer of $35k based on what I felt the art was worth.  The dealer scoffed at my offer, okay.  So, I decided to ask a few others I know what their take was on it's value.  A dealer/collector said "30ish".  A collector I asked said "$10-15k", but he also said he was not a fan of that piece, so I think he would not even pay the $10k estimate he put on it.  That's a $40,000 swing in value from the dealers ask & this particular collectors low estimate!

 

In another story, a friend of mine bought a piece of art for $1200.  I offered him $1500 hoping he would flip it for the quick $300 profit.  He declined & sold it in an auction 3 months later for $3500.  Now it's on a dealers site for $7500! So within a year it went up $6300 from my vantage point!

 

See where I'm going with this?  OA is all 1 of a kind, there is no GPA for OA.  If your lucky, you can find a past sale of that specific piece, otherwise the best you can do is find something compatible or ask others who's opinions you trust & value.

 

It seems like the OA market is more of a "wild west" where sales, ask prices & estimates are all over the place!  With comics if you have an ASM #129 in NM, you know within 10% one way or another what the thing is worth.

 

How do we combat this craziness?  Is it even possible?  Does this type of "wild west" pricing scare away potential collectors & investors?  I know it's got me worried!

 

I don’t know if this helps, but this is a thin market. While lots of people may buy something occasionally, I don’t think you have anything close to the number of regular buyers of, say, old comics, let alone old cars. I also suspect the number of large ticket regular purchasers is less than 1,000 at any given point in time, not counting dealers. I am also not counting purchasers like me who swim in the low end of the market; there are probably a lot of us.  So, wild swings should be expected on high end items, particularly if you start segregating the large  purchasers into subgroups like Kirby fans, EC, etc. To me, an expensive Kirby piece is worth nothing because I would never buy it. 

The impact of a thin market would explain what you saw. Sometimes, an expensive piece sits for years—yet the price goes up. I saw an Adams cover which the dealer wanted $13,000 for (no, not Coollines). When he had it for sale two years earlier, it didn’t sell for $8,000; and he would have taken less. And that isn’t even too expensive.

The bottom line is that this stuff is not a good investment vehicle unless you get something the market treats as hot, or comes with special background, like early Ditko. And that’s why there is no true value to most comic art.

[Bronty]

2 hours ago, Timely said:

What's the true value of original art? Now, before you say, "whatever someone is willing to pay for it!", here are some recent observations.

 

This week a piece of art a dealer has for sale for $50k I was interested in.  I made him a trade offer of $35k based on what I felt the art was worth.  The dealer scoffed at my offer, okay.  So, I decided to ask a few others I know what their take was on it's value.  A dealer/collector said "30ish".  A collector I asked said "$10-15k", but he also said he was not a fan of that piece, so I think he would not even pay the $10k estimate he put on it.  That's a $40,000 swing in value from the dealers ask & this particular collectors low estimate!

 

In another story, a friend of mine bought a piece of art for $1200.  I offered him $1500 hoping he would flip it for the quick $300 profit.  He declined & sold it in an auction 3 months later for $3500.  Now it's on a dealers site for $7500! So within a year it went up $6300 from my vantage point!

 

See where I'm going with this?  OA is all 1 of a kind, there is no GPA for OA.  If your lucky, you can find a past sale of that specific piece, otherwise the best you can do is find something compatible or ask others who's opinions you trust & value.

 

It seems like the OA market is more of a "wild west" where sales, ask prices & estimates are all over the place!  With comics if you have an ASM #129 in NM, you know within 10% one way or another what the thing is worth.

 

How do we combat this craziness?  Is it even possible?  Does this type of "wild west" pricing scare away potential collectors & investors?  I know it's got me worried!

 

You see danger I see opportunity;)

[Bronty]

11 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I don’t know if this helps, but this is a thin market. While lots of people may buy something occasionally, I don’t think you have anything close to the number of regular buyers of, say, old comics, let alone old cars. I also suspect the number of large ticket regular purchasers is less than 1,000 at any given point in time, not counting dealers. I am also not counting purchasers like me who swim in the low end of the market; there are probably a lot of us.  So, wild swings should be expected on high end items, particularly if you start segregating the large  purchasers into subgroups like Kirby fans, EC, etc. To me, an expensive Kirby piece is worth nothing because I would never buy it. 

The impact of a thin market would explain what you saw. Sometimes, an expensive piece sits for years—yet the price goes up. I saw an Adams cover which the dealer wanted $13,000 for (no, not Coollines). When he had it for sale two years earlier, it didn’t sell for $8,000; and he would have taken less. And that isn’t even too expensive.

The bottom line is that this stuff is not a good investment vehicle unless you get something the market treats as hot, or comes with special background, like early Ditko. And that’s why there is no true value to most comic art.

No opportunities in early Ditko.  You can only get it at auction.   Ok maybe it doubles if you hold it a long time.   Meh

[exitmusicblue]

2 hours ago, Timely said:

What's the true value of original art? Now, before you say, "whatever someone is willing to pay for it!", here are some recent observations.

 

This week a piece of art a dealer has for sale for $50k I was interested in.  I made him a trade offer of $35k based on what I felt the art was worth.  The dealer scoffed at my offer, okay.  So, I decided to ask a few others I know what their take was on it's value.  A dealer/collector said "30ish".  A collector I asked said "$10-15k", but he also said he was not a fan of that piece, so I think he would not even pay the $10k estimate he put on it.  That's a $40,000 swing in value from the dealers ask & this particular collectors low estimate!

 

In another story, a friend of mine bought a piece of art for $1200.  I offered him $1500 hoping he would flip it for the quick $300 profit.  He declined & sold it in an auction 3 months later for $3500.  Now it's on a dealers site for $7500! So within a year it went up $6300 from my vantage point!

 

See where I'm going with this?  OA is all 1 of a kind, there is no GPA for OA.  If your lucky, you can find a past sale of that specific piece, otherwise the best you can do is find something compatible or ask others who's opinions you trust & value.

 

It seems like the OA market is more of a "wild west" where sales, ask prices & estimates are all over the place!  With comics if you have an ASM #129 in NM, you know within 10% one way or another what the thing is worth.

 

How do we combat this craziness?  Is it even possible?  Does this type of "wild west" pricing scare away potential collectors & investors?  I know it's got me worried!

 

Sounds like the overall art market. Because comic art is art.  : )

[gumbydarnit]

Slight drift here... can someone point me to the comic art values thread, where pecking order of art values are roughly stated. I tried to search for it and couldn't find it.

[ESeffinga]

The way it connects one human being’s ideas & emotions to another human being. And if the artist is very lucky their work connects with a LOT of others.

Those shared moments where something they share with the world impacts and comes back to them.

Different art connects differently. But that is it’s true underlying value. And if a work doesn’t connect with us, we give it no value. Monetarily or otherwise.

The goosebumps someone gets holding the cover to their first comic book. The gut wrenching horror and drama of a great masterpiece in a gallery. The song on the radio from our first kiss. Or the first movie we went to with a significant other. These are the markers of human existence, and they are the thing that remains as we all turn to dust. 

Whats the value of art?  Nothing... or Everything.

How do we put a price on it? We hold our noses and we take the plunge. Or we scratch our head in bewilderment when someone else does, and we just don’t get it.

There is supply, demand, and emotion. Mix those all up, and it really isn’t possible to get any clearer than that, IMO.

[AnkurJ]

In a very rough basic way

If General market value = x

Then dealer/collector pricing = 1.25x to 2x

If you’re lucky you’ll be able to buy it at the lower end of the dealer pricing. Rarely if ever will you be able to buy a highly desirable piece at x. 

[jjonahjameson11]

10 hours ago, Timely said:

What's the true value of original art? Now, before you say, "whatever someone is willing to pay for it!", here are some recent observations.

 

This week a piece of art a dealer has for sale for $50k I was interested in.  I made him a trade offer of $35k based on what I felt the art was worth.  The dealer scoffed at my offer, okay.  So, I decided to ask a few others I know what their take was on it's value.  A dealer/collector said "30ish".  A collector I asked said "$10-15k", but he also said he was not a fan of that piece, so I think he would not even pay the $10k estimate he put on it.  That's a $40,000 swing in value from the dealers ask & this particular collectors low estimate!

 

In another story, a friend of mine bought a piece of art for $1200.  I offered him $1500 hoping he would flip it for the quick $300 profit.  He declined & sold it in an auction 3 months later for $3500.  Now it's on a dealers site for $7500! So within a year it went up $6300 from my vantage point!

 

See where I'm going with this?  OA is all 1 of a kind, there is no GPA for OA.  If your lucky, you can find a past sale of that specific piece, otherwise the best you can do is find something compatible or ask others who's opinions you trust & value.

 

It seems like the OA market is more of a "wild west" where sales, ask prices & estimates are all over the place!  With comics if you have an ASM #129 in NM, you know within 10% one way or another what the thing is worth.

 

How do we combat this craziness?  Is it even possible?  Does this type of "wild west" pricing scare away potential collectors & investors?  I know it's got me worried!

 

Have to disagree with you on knowing within 10% the value of ASM 129 in NM.  For example,

raw or slabbed?  Big difference in price 

White pages or off-white pages? Significant difference

nicely centred spine or off centred?  Could be significant difference 

colour brightness?  Yep, difference in price

sharpness of corners?  Price difference 

date stamp?  Price difference 

now factor in some Or all combinations thereof...and it’s not as predictable as you think.  

Edited April 27, 2019 by jjonahjameson11

[Timely]

38 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Have to disagree with you on knowing within 10% the value of ASM 129 in NM.  For example,

raw or slabbed?  Big difference in price 

White pages or off-white pages? Significant difference

nicely centred spine or off centred?  Could be significant difference 

colour brightness?  Yep, difference in price

sharpness of corners?  Price difference 

date stamp?  Price difference 

now factor in some Or all combinations thereof...and it’s not as predictable as you think.  

I simplified the scenario to make a point. My point is there are hundreds if not thousands of copies in the same or close to the same condition to get a pretty accurate evaluation. If I take a comic that constantly sells for $5000 to auction I'd expect it to sell for $4500-5500, not $700 or $30,000. That's my point!

[timguerrero]

I first started buying art as an investment but have slowly found out that it is hard to find customers who wish to pay asking price so I reverted back to comics and have been making some money speculating, more so than from art.

However, I think that one might hit the jackpot with art and the gains on initial investment could be 10x or more. I know that I could make good money by selling the pieces that are in my permanent collection however being a collector those are the pieces I am not willing to let go even if I have to eat ketchup sandwiches now and then, lol.

[Bronty]

7 hours ago, Timely said:

I simplified the scenario to make a point. My point is there are hundreds if not thousands of copies in the same or close to the same condition to get a pretty accurate evaluation. If I take a comic that constantly sells for $5000 to auction I'd expect it to sell for $4500-5500, not $700 or $30,000. That's my point!

With all respect West, I’m not sure what the point is.    You know fully well that the price can range widely depending on the situation.    What I’m unclear on is why you see that as some kind of problem that needs addressing.    You can’t change the nature of the beast.    To put it another way, we can’t expect to change the sun  so if you go outside in summer, wear sunscreen.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Bronty

[Get Marwood & I]

There's a lot of money in the world. It's not evenly spread of course and some people have the ability to buy without a moments hesitation what others will have had to have saved years to be able to afford.  It is possible to arrive at an approximate value for some art pages. A Ross Andru Amazing Spidey tends to land in the $2,000-3,000 area,  last time I looked for an 'unremarkable' page. So a long term fan spends a few years saving up in the hope that one day they get the opportunity to own their little piece of history.  And lo and behold, one day it's there in an auction. In dives our committed fan. Alas, that same day, a person to whom $2,000 is small change is also watching....

Being one of a kind items, there is no obvious ceiling price. A knowledgeable rich person wouldn't pay 20 grand for an ASM 129 in 9.2 as that would be a waste. They're freely available for much less. But he would likely pay 20 grand for an ASM Andru page, if the page happened to mean something to him (or her). There are price ranges that give an indication of worth, sure. But the only thing that really matters is how rich the watcher(s) is.

[Rick2you2]

36 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

here are price ranges that give an indication of worth, sure. But the only thing that really matters is how rich the watcher(s) is.

Or crazy.

[jjonahjameson11]

11 hours ago, Timely said:

I simplified the scenario to make a point. My point is there are hundreds if not thousands of copies in the same or close to the same condition to get a pretty accurate evaluation. If I take a comic that constantly sells for $5000 to auction I'd expect it to sell for $4500-5500, not $700 or $30,000. That's my point!

Yeah, and your underlying premise is flawed.  The true value of art is what someone is willing to pay for it.  Period.

[Get Marwood & I]

48 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

here are price ranges that give an indication of worth, sure. But the only thing that really matters is how rich the watcher(s) is.

Or crazy.

Yes. Yes, that too.

[Timely]

I'm not sure why this thread is not getting the response I was hoping for, perhaps I have not been clear enough. 

I was about to purchase a piece of art for $50,000. My peers said it's worth $10,000 to $30,000. I lost confidence in the piece and did not buy it. Now I am second guessing other pieces I have bought. Did I pay double what the next highest buyer would have paid? I feel like I've made good purchases, but when I spend that kind of money I have to look at it as an investment too. I love every piece I bought from an artistic standpoint, but no one wants to feel the overpaid or got ripped off buying a piece of art. Is there anyone here who would feel good about paying $50,000 for a new Honda when everyone else got theirs for $30,000?

If there is not confidence in a collectible investors tend to look elsewhere. 

Before comic grading began in 2000 most sales were to comic collectors. Grading helped stabilize the industry and confidence increased dramatically since then. I'm not sure OA has that same level of stability, and that's what you need to have if you want an outside investor to spend $50,000 on your collectible. Otherwise you have dealers trading back and forth with each other hoping a collector will come along and pull the trigger.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Timely

[jjonahjameson11]

27 minutes ago, Timely said:

I'm not sure why this thread is not getting the response I was hoping for, perhaps I have not been clear enough. 

I was about to purchase a piece of art for $50,000. My peers said it's worth $10,000 to $30,000. I lost confidence in the piece and did not buy it. Now I am second guessing other pieces I have bought. Did I pay double what the next highest buyer would have paid? I feel like I've made good purchases, but when I spend that kind of money I have to look at it as an investment too. I love every piece I bought from an artistic standpoint, but no one wants to feel the overpaid or got ripped off buying a piece of art. Is there anyone here who would feel good about paying $50,000 for a new Honda when everyone else got theirs for $30,000?

If there is not confidence in a collectible investors tend to look elsewhere. 

Before comic grading began in 2000 most sales were to comic collectors. Grading helped stabilize the industry and confidence increased dramatically since then. I'm not sure OA has that same level of stability, and that's what you need to have if you want an outside investor to spend $50,000 on your collectible. Otherwise you have dealers trading back and forth with each other hoping a collector will come along and pull the trigger.

The only person who can answer this is you.  Do your friends have the EXACT same interest in OA as you?  do they have the EXACT same expeirence collecting OA, same contacts, same ability to pay?

Edited April 27, 2019 by jjonahjameson11

[Bronty]

19 minutes ago, Timely said:

I'm not sure why this thread is not getting the response I was hoping for, perhaps I have not been clear enough. 

I was about to purchase a piece of art for $50,000. My peers said it's worth $10,000 to $30,000. I lost confidence in the piece and did not buy it. Now I am second guessing other pieces I have bought. Did I pay double what the next highest buyer would have paid? I feel like I've made good purchases, but when I spend that kind of money I have to look at it as an investment too. I love every piece I bought from an artistic standpoint, but no one wants to feel the overpaid or got ripped off buying a piece of art. Is there anyone here who would feel good about paying $50,000 for a new Honda when everyone else got theirs for $30,000?

If there is not confidence in a collectible investors tend to look elsewhere. 

Before comic grading began in 2000 most sales were to comic collectors. Grading helped stabilize the industry and confidence increased dramatically since then. I'm not sure OA has that same level of stability, and that's what you need to have if you want an outside investor to spend $50,000 on your collectible. Otherwise you have dealers trading back and forth with each other hoping a collector will come along and pull the trigger.

 

Well there you go.   You're posing the question as though its some pervasive issue with the market when really what you're having is a confidence crisis in your own ability to assess value.

Where values are harder to pin down, you need that confidence.

I won't ask you to name the 50k piece out of respect for the seller, but if you want to post other pieces and the prices paid, we can give you more direct feedback.

Asking for feedback about how to fix the 'wild west' isn't going to get you the answers you are looking for.    I like sunshine and cactii just fine.