Ever had a reholder downgrade???
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I just sent in 10 books (worth about $8K) to CGC to get new style holders and Walking Dead custom labels.  All are 9.8 Signature Series and 1 is unique.    I watched a CGC Podcast and they seemed pretty clear that if a book comes in for a reholder and it is clearly over-graded, they will reassess and lower the grade.  Their rationale was they do not want an overgraded book out there, even if they previously made a mistake (or the book degraded somehow).   I've got a friend with Walking Dead #1 CGC 9.9 ($10K+ book) and an AF15 (unsure of grade but it would easily buy a new car) and he would love to reholder them but is afraid of the risk of a downgrade.    I've done a batch of 5 and a second batch of 10 and all came back same grade.   How many books have you sent for reholders and have you ever been slapped with a downgrade?  If you were, did CGC notify you in advance that the downgrade was coming?

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I'd say your friend is fine and you can always post a picture on the forum first to make sure the grade is somewhat in line.  I can see them changing a grade on a grossly incorrectly graded book, but say, 1-2 grades off?  Unlikely.

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A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. 

Is anything wrong with the current cases? Cracks or major scuffs? If no then personally I wouldn't worry about reholdering.

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It could just be that they want to get new holders as they are much superior to the old ones and the risk of a 9.9 going down to a 9.8 OR an AF 15 dropping even half of a grade could be thousands of dollars lost...plus the cost of the FML tier to get the re-holder would be running the risk of paying for a downgrade.

Has anyone been on the bad end of a hypothetical situation like the one the OP mentioned?  Getting a re-holder and losing out on an investment due to the grade being lowered?

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9 minutes ago, DTM700 said:

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. 

Is anything wrong with the current cases? Cracks or major scuffs? If no then personally I wouldn't worry about reholdering.

I agree, this is excellent advise. I have personally seen grades lowered on a reholder. Sometimes it's a situation where the book gets damaged. Sometimes a press will revert. I think you are crazy to submit a 9.9 for reholder. 

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7 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I agree, this is excellent advise. I have personally seen grades lowered on a reholder. Sometimes it's a situation where the book gets damaged. Sometimes a press will revert. I think you are crazy to submit a 9.9 for reholder. 

Hi Bob, I’m not reholdering a 9.9.   I just mentioned that I have a friend who would like to if the risk of downgrade was not there. CGC’s sister coin grading group NGC guarantees the grade.  If they find it to be lower they will buy the coin off the market or reimburse the owner the difference.  But they charge more to grade expensive coins than comics.

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4 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

Hi Bob, I’m not reholdering a 9.9.   I just mentioned that I have a friend who would like to if the risk of downgrade was not there. CGC’s sister coin grading group NGC guarantees the grade.  If they find it to be lower they will buy the coin off the market or reimburse the owner the difference.  But they charge more to grade expensive coins than comics.

Interesting. I was not aware of this guarantee for coins.  

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13 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Interesting. I was not aware of this guarantee for coins.  

Yes, the best company is PCGS (most conservative and get the best coins)  Someone paid $80K for a penny and when they put it up for auction, a flaw in the coin was discovered.  PCGS wrote the guy a check for $80,000.   I'm sure NGC has honored many but I stopped coin collecting in 2006.

 

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35 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I agree, this is excellent advise. I have personally seen grades lowered on a reholder. Sometimes it's a situation where the book gets damaged. Sometimes a press will revert. I think you are crazy to submit a 9.9 for reholder. 

I've submitted quite a few 9.8s and 9.9s for reholder. Even in one case when I felt it certain to get a downgrade, I never did. Never have. Maybe I just got lucky? 

They aren't getting paid to regrade, so why would they, unless they see something over-the-top wrong? 

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I sent books back to have them reholdered for horrible Newton Rings, they knocked a corner off one and the grade was lowered.

So it can happen, I'd leave them alone. 

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28 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

I sent books back to have them reholdered for horrible Newton Rings, they knocked a corner off one and the grade was lowered.

So it can happen, I'd leave them alone. 

this is my biggest concern with reholdering from old slab to new slab. it's not just a matter of cracking open the old slab and reinsert in the comic with the original inner well into a new slab. some of those older inner wells aren't the same size as the new ones and won't align properly in the new slab. anyone who's ever cracked open a slab to get the comic out knows the hard part is cutting the comic carefully out of the inner well. using scissors you have to be careful not to bend the spine as you cut and also leave jagged edges in the plastic which can nick, scratch, or even shear off a piece of the cover especially on a brittle older book. God forbid you cut to close and...SNIP! now u have a trimmed comic.

 

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4 hours ago, justafan said:

this is my biggest concern with reholdering from old slab to new slab. it's not just a matter of cracking open the old slab and reinsert in the comic with the original inner well into a new slab. some of those older inner wells aren't the same size as the new ones and won't align properly in the new slab. anyone who's ever cracked open a slab to get the comic out knows the hard part is cutting the comic carefully out of the inner well. using scissors you have to be careful not to bend the spine as you cut and also leave jagged edges in the plastic which can nick, scratch, or even shear off a piece of the cover especially on a brittle older book. God forbid you cut to close and...SNIP! now u have a trimmed comic.

 

Very good points made on this thread. It's true, a downgrade does happen occasionally during the reholder process, but it usually has to be a pretty noticeable flaw that the grader simply can't ignore to receive a downgrade. As was mentioned, sometimes flaws happen due to damage, and every so often a grade will change because the grade of the book is off the mark---I've even seen the grade of the book go up rather than down.  

As far as removing the book from the inner well, you bring up a good point. You must be very careful when using scissors to open the well. There are a few tricks I've learned which may help, however. First, check to see if there's any clearance between the book and the interior edges of the inner well---sometimes there's a bit of a gap on the sides or top to bottom. Make that gap the side you cut to limit the possibility of cutting into the book. Second, I always cut the top edge first; I've never seen the top edge have a wedge, and there's usually a gap there already. When cutting with scissors, try to cut along the inner edge of the heat seal; it not only serves as a guide, but if you can cut the seal you can usually peel the well open without too much trouble. If the well starts to tear and not follow the seal, finish it with scissors or a box cutter (be careful not to cut yourself, though!) Third, once you have the top edge open, sometimes you can get the sides to open without cutting them. Occasionally they'll peel open easily if they're not sealed too tightly. If neither side will open easily, try to create as much of a gap as possible by gently tapping the comic toward one side or the other (this usually won't work if there's a wedge, however). If you can get the top and one side completely open, you're home free. Once you get that far, carefully slide a thin backing board under the book as far as possible and then gently coax the book from the well by slowly pulling it out while at the same time moving the backing board underneath it. In this way, you'll provide stability for the book as it comes out of the well. Watch out for any rough plastic edges that may catch the book as you remove it. It takes a little practice, but it's actually pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Always take your time and use extreme caution when removing books from the inner well---there may be a tear on the book you can't see and that can be a real problem...  :cry:

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I sent books back to have them reholdered for horrible Newton Rings, they knocked a corner off one and the grade was lowered.

So it can happen, I'd leave them alone.

CGC damaged the book and didn't cover the damages they made to it?

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11 minutes ago, csaag said:

CGC damaged the book and didn't cover the damages they made to it?

They gave me a small credit. It was a book that is not high in Overstreet, but was Wonder Woman #50  part of my Wonder Woman collection and very  VERY  hard to replace, you can't find some of them. It was an old book, it was not brittle, but there was a corner that was partially torn and it came off when they reholdered it. They actually sent me the corner.  

The people who worked with me were nice, I can't fault them, I know they didn't mean any harm, but stuff happens.

 It's hard to argue value in those circumstances. In any case, i'd be reluctant to send something that didn't look terrible back. The books I sent back the last time had so many Newton Rings they looked like different books.

I know they try, and I'm sure they didn't damage it on purpose, but they need to fix this case issue. I just got a box of books back on Friday and there are some big scuff marks on a few so far. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with these.

I had never had these issues previously and I've had a lot of my collection slabbed over the past 5-10 years.

 

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2 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

They gave me a small credit. It was a book that is not high in Overstreet, but was Wonder Woman #50  part of my Wonder Woman collection and very  VERY  hard to replace, you can't find some of them. It was an old book, it was not brittle, but there was a corner that was partially torn and it came off when they reholdered it. They actually sent me the corner.  

The people who worked with me were nice, I can't fault them, I know they didn't mean any harm, but stuff happens.

 It's hard to argue value in those circumstances. In any case, i'd be reluctant to send something that didn't look terrible back. The books I sent back the last time had so many Newton Rings they looked like different books.

I know they try, and I'm sure they didn't damage it on purpose, but they need to fix this case issue. I just got a box of books back on Friday and there are some big scuff marks on a few so far. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with these.

I had never had these issues previously and I've had a lot of my collection slabbed over the past 5-10 years.

 

Laurel & Hardy don't seem too annoyed there Sharon! :foryou:

Joking aside, it's a shame to see that this stuff is still going on - Newton Rings etc. The CGC process and case are great when everything works. But when you're one of those receiving books where it hasn't worked, I should imagine it's a difficult thing to deal with. Comics being what they are, delicate, rare, precious, the last thing any grading company should be doing is presenting them badly and, in some cases, damaging them.

 

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12 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Laurel & Hardy don't seem too annoyed there Sharon! :foryou:

Joking aside, it's a shame to see that this stuff is still going on - Newton Rings etc. The CGC process and case are great when everything works. But when you're one of those receiving books where it hasn't worked, I should imagine it's a difficult thing to deal with. Comics being what they are, delicate, rare, precious, the last thing any grading company should be doing is presenting them badly and, in some cases, damaging them.

 

It's a first world problem Steve, I'm not crying (or laughing;) but I'm disappointed that there are still issues and I'd rather have my books safe than a pretty case.

Then again as many collectors, I'm slightly OCD, so scuffs bother me more on the cases, than they do on my furniture;) 

The good news is, NO Newton rings so far (for the books I've examined) but the new issue appears to be scuffing.

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2 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

It's a first world problem Steve, I'm not crying (or laughing;) but I'm disappointed that there are still issues and I'd rather have my books safe than a pretty case.

Then again as many collectors, I'm slightly OCD, so scuffs bother me more on the cases, than they do on my furniture;) 

The good news is, NO Newton rings so far (for the books I've examined) but the new issue appears to be scuffing.

Scuffing poll coming up!

Spoiler

I'm joking :grin:

 

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As inconsistent as the grading has been over the years (or as consistently tight/high as it has been lately) I wouldn't risk a regrade unless there was a serious flaw to the case that might possibly endanger the book. Just not worth it. And I'd never reholder a 9.9 or 10, ever, because those are almost completely arbitrary and unlikely to happen again.

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I was a fan of hunting for NM raw books and then slabbing them for my collection. But after my experience with CGC's newtown rings, which 50% of the books that I've gotten back recently have had, I have changed my approach. I now hunt for older slabbed books, like pre-2014, which do not have the newton ring issue AND are so much cheaper since more and more collectors are selling off their old slab in favor of new ones. they may not be in the clearer and much more heftier slabs but not seeing oils all over my book makes it worth it, especially on an all black cover. just my opinion. 

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I submitted six books last month that needed new holders, due to cracks. I got an email a few days ago informing me that four of these books would receive lower grades. I’ve sent in Reholder submissions five or six times over the years and this is a first for me. The email listed several options and showed pictures of the flaws. I’m still processing this, two of these books are expensive.

I opted for the press option, so only time will tell. One of these books was graded only a year ago, the others were graded during 2002-08. Again, I’m still processing this but I found myself going over my slabs looking for possible damage. I also do not recall any of the defects that were pointed out to me when I last viewed the slabs before packing them up for CGC. Theses slabs had cracks but I did not detect any damage to the book.

I go by the old saying “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” but these slabs needed it. I’m trying not to be traumatized by this experience, but due to this, and the Newton Ring issue I’m hesitant to send books in for either grading or Reholdering.

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