CGC needs to modify its stance on Color Touch 5 5

[Kevin76]

If color touch is present on the book so try and hide a color break and it gets graded...automatic PLOD.  If a pen mark is on the book without the intention of trying to cover up a color break, then it should be noted (example) "black pen mark on cover" 

[dupont2005]

2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

It's quite a good debate isn't it. No easy answers really. My last thought, accepting all the grey areas, is that a book with a few tiny dots of CT really shouldn't get lumped in with extensively restored books under the PLOD label. Especially when that label has such a massive affect on value and desirability. There has to be a fairer way to present the two ends of the spectrum. It's like giving people the death sentence for a parking ticket. 

 

The label doesn’t have a massive affect, the color touch does. That’s what happens when you disclose color touch. What amount of restoration is acceptable in a non restored label? I’d say none. Just means cheaper comics for those who like them. But by allowing any level of restoration in a blue label you will see restoration become exactly as common as pressing, and it’s fairly safe to assume anything slabbed in at least the past five years has been pressed

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, thunsicker said:

So how's this for an idea.  Instead of giving a restored comic a blue label with restoration noted, how about they have two grades on the restored label.  What the comic presents as and what they estimate the grade would be before restoration was done to it?  Or what the comic presents as and what they estimate the grade would be if the restoration was removed.  The reason that plods get such lower values is that for many people (and especially over the internet) it is very hard to figure out what slight, moderate, and extensive restoration means.   As such one never knows if you are buying a classic comic or a frankenbook.  I really think this would lessen the penalty of PLODs and discourage restoration removal.

I've long been an advocate of more information on the labels, including breaking up grading into component parts, with a final "all things taken into account" being the "big grade" on the label. 

Something along the lines of this:

Where they give different facets of the grade individual scores.

With restoration, a "percentage original" might be something that is workable, especially for books that have pieces added and the like. Something like "80% original material" or somesuch. 

It's rough, but I think the idea is there.

[Black_Adam]

8 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

The label doesn’t have a massive affect, the color touch does. That’s what happens when you disclose color touch. What amount of restoration is acceptable in a non restored label? I’d say none. Just means cheaper comics for those who like them. But by allowing any level of restoration in a blue label you will see restoration become exactly as common as pressing, and it’s fairly safe to assume anything slabbed in at least the past five years has been pressed

No amount of restoration would be 'allowed' in a Blue label - the book would get hammered - it just wouldn't get a Purple label (which ironically would give the color-touched comic a higher grade).

I don't think this compares to pressing which - when present - is almost always rewarded with a higher grade by CGC (who freely offer the service).

[Black_Adam]

I know this thread is like shooting arrows at the clouds, but this would be the grading system for CT I envision:

An unscrupulous comic store guy has a comic with a color-breaking corner crease. In its current state it is a 7.0 

He takes a black marker and color touches the crease, now the comic looks like a 9.0

He sells the book to an unsuspecting customer and the CT goes unnoticed. Customer submits the comic for grading and it comes back as a 9.0 (PLOD).

Customer curses comic store guy (who has vanished) and sends the comic back to have the CT removed. The corner is cut away (there was bleed through) and the book comes back as a 6.0 (Blue).

Under my system the grader would have caught the CT, deducted a full grade for it from the otherwise 7.0 comic, and sent the book back as a 6.0 (Blue).

Exact same result except it does not further damage the comic and saves the duped customer additional pain in the form of extra resto removal/grading/shipping fees.

 

[LordRahl]

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

They can't. Likewise with trimming. I carefully trim a scruffy edge with a knife, I get a PLOD. I tear it off and I get a Blue. It's nonsense. 

No. No it isn't. If you tear it off, it just looks like a torn up book. If you trim it carefully with a knife, you are now trying to make it look like it did when it came off the press. I can't tell if you honestly can't see this very fundamental difference or you're being intentionally obtuse because reality doesn't fit your view.

[Get Marwood & I]

10 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

No. No it isn't. If you tear it off, it just looks like a torn up book. If you trim it carefully with a knife, you are now trying to make it look like it did when it came off the press. I can't tell if you honestly can't see this very fundamental difference or you're being intentionally obtuse because reality doesn't fit your view.

And by calling me obtuse you forfeit the right to find out. Be well.

[Black_Adam]

5 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

No. No it isn't. If you tear it off, it just looks like a torn up book. If you trim it carefully with a knife, you are now trying to make it look like it did when it came off the press. I can't tell if you honestly can't see this very fundamental difference or you're being intentionally obtuse because reality doesn't fit your view.

If I have a (PLOD) comic with a spine crease that has been carefully color touched with a straight black line (makes it look like it came right off the press) and I draw a black line vertically through it so that it now looks like someone drew a black cross on the cover (now it is just a marked-up book) does that mean the comic is no longer restored and gets a Blue label?

[VintageComics]

2 minutes ago, Black_Adam said:

If I have a (PLOD) comic with a spine crease that has been carefully color touched with a straight black line (makes it look like it came right off the press) and I draw a black line vertically through it so that it now looks like someone drew a black cross on the cover (now it is just a marked-up book) does that mean the comic is no longer restored and gets a Blue label?

I'm not sure if you are aware or not, but we discussed this sort of thing in great detail maybe 12-13 years ago on here.

CGC wanted to introduce a Blue label right across the board. It co-incided with their introduction of their in house restoration and removal service.

The boards shut it down and it never made it off the ground.

Since then, we've had detailed discussions on the topic.

Things got pretty heated on here. There was lots of name calling and accusations.

I have always felt that labeling color touch (CLEARLY so that nobody can miss it) while putting a book in a blue label would go a long way to helping educate people about books and values while reducing the amount of destruction done to books.

The recent change to having Conserved AND Restored labels was a small step in that direction.

The main barrier is that too many people don't care what perception is, values are affected or anything else. They only want color touched books clearly segregated into Purple labels and nothing else.

It's a great discussion, but nothing is every going to change IMO.

 

[Black_Adam]

4 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I'm not sure if you are aware or not, but we discussed this sort of thing in great detail maybe 12-13 years ago on here.

CGC wanted to introduce a Blue label right across the board. It co-incided with their introduction of their in house restoration and removal service.

The boards shut it down and it never made it off the ground.

Since then, we've had detailed discussions on the topic.

Things got pretty heated on here. There was lots of name calling and accusations.

I have always felt that labeling color touch (CLEARLY so that nobody can miss it) while putting a book in a blue label would go a long way to helping educate people about books and values while reducing the amount of destruction done to books.

The recent change to having Conserved AND Restored labels was a small step in that direction.

The main barrier is that too many people don't care what perception is, values are affected or anything else. They only want color touched books clearly segregated into Purple labels and nothing else.

It's a great discussion, but nothing is every going to change IMO.

 

I wasn't even aware that these Boards existed 12-13 years ago...

And thanks for the insight, I figured as much but was just frustrated by the current system (of resto removal) and wanted to throw in my own 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, Black_Adam said:

I wasn't even aware that these Boards existed 12-13 years ago...

And thanks for the insight, I figured as much but was just frustrated by the current system (of resto removal) and wanted to throw in my own 

 

I was aware. I often detect some resentment from certain 'old timers' here on these boards when newer members discuss 'old subjects'. Its like you're not allowed to, just because its been done before, by them, and you weren't there. But new aspects can come up, and nothing ever changed where people gave in. So I'm glad you threw your in Black Adam. I enjoyed the debate, even if others thought it sank long ago with the Titanic. 

[Mystafo]

4 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

what a load of old cock

I don't feel we've given enough thought to this poignant line.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Mystafo

[VintageComics]

14 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I was aware. I often detect some resentment from certain 'old timers' here on these boards when newer members discuss 'old subjects'. Its like you're not allowed to, just because its been done before, by them, and you weren't there. But new aspects can come up, and nothing ever changed where people gave in. So I'm glad you threw your in Black Adam. I enjoyed the debate, even if others thought it sank long ago with the Titanic. 

I'm not sure if you were talking about me or not but there is no resentment from me about the discussion.

The only resentment I might still hold is for those other old-timers who accused me of being a greedy, slimy person for seeing things the way Black_Adam does.

[Get Marwood & I]

4 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I'm not sure if you were talking about me or not but there is no resentment from me about the discussion.

The only resentment I might still hold is for those other old-timers who accused me of being a greedy, slimy person for seeing things the way Black_Adam does.

I wasn't talking about you Roy, no. We're on the same page I think. 

[Ride the Tiger]

3 hours ago, LordRahl said:

How, pray tell, is CGC dictating the value of comics? 

By making the restored books appear less desirable with a different colored label. When I first got into comics there was near mint, fine and good. No one ever talked about a book being restored because they didn't care. Now it's like a little color touch is the Black Plague. And what company brought about the whole restored issue?

[Get Marwood & I]

26 minutes ago, Mystafo said:

5 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

what a load of old cock

I don't feel we've given enough thought to this poignant line.

It doesn't seem that profound taken out of context, does it 

[The Lions Den]

56 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

And by calling me obtuse you forfeit the right to find out. Be well.

The last time I heard that word used it ended up like this...

[Get Marwood & I]

Just now, The Lions Den said:

The last time I heard that word used it ended up like this...

Please Dufresne, sorry, refrain from obtuseness 

[RockMyAmadeus]

16 minutes ago, Ride the Tiger said:

By making the restored books appear less desirable with a different colored label. When I first got into comics there was near mint, fine and good. No one ever talked about a book being restored because they didn't care. Now it's like a little color touch is the Black Plague. And what company brought about the whole restored issue?

CGC isn't dictating anything. That's an important distinction that ought not be missed. CGC only grades what is in front of them; they're not responsible for the way the market reacted.

Restoration was a very big, very serious problem, about which many people cared (myself included) long before the advent of CGC. In fact...restoration detection easily edges out accurate grading as the #1 reason for CGC's existence. Grading is subjective...just because CGC says a book is 8.5 doesn't mean you must agree. Market acceptance is the result of three parties agreeing: CGC, the seller, and the buyer. 

But what was never subjective was the presence or absence of restoration. And that, more than anything else, is why CGC initially got off the ground and proved its value to the community. People were tired of paying unrestored prices for restored books. Without CGC, you would never, ever have seen a million dollar comic book (outside of inflation.)

Edited April 30, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus
damn typos.

[LordRahl]

28 minutes ago, Ride the Tiger said:

By making the restored books appear less desirable with a different colored label. When I first got into comics there was near mint, fine and good. No one ever talked about a book being restored because they didn't care. Now it's like a little color touch is the Black Plague. And what company brought about the whole restored issue?

CGC did not make restored books appear less desirable. They only differentiate them with a different color label. Restored books were always less desirable. You are dead wrong that people didn't care if a book was restored prior to CGC.

CGC does not dictate comic values. We (the market) do that. All CGC does is provide an unbiased opinion as to grade and an educated opinion as to restoration. It is then up to us to assign a value, which we have done.