CGC needs to modify its stance on Color Touch 5 5

[RockMyAmadeus]

24 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

1 hour ago, LordRahl said:

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, the long held standard definition of restoration was indeed already established and in place when CGC first opened its doors for business.  

Unfortunately for all of us, CGC surreptitiously decided to change the definition of restoration to suit the business agenda of their parent CCG and did not bothered to inform the collecting base or the marketplace of this significant change.  It was only years later due to the efforts of many board detectives here that we were able to finally get CGC to admit to these significant  changes in the restoration definition to the point whereby even "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book in and of itself was not considered to be restoration".  

To make matters doubly worse, it was then determined that certain "people in the know" were already well aware of these changes and had been nefariously "maximizing the potential" of their books.  Needless to say, they most likely made a small fortune by offloading them into an unsuspecting marketplace by laundering them through CGC to obtain their sealed stamp of approval.     

While there is some truth here (maybe even mostly truth), this is as one sided as a view can get. There is a lot of context that you are (probably purposefully) leaving out. It makes rational people that don't share your extreme view just dismiss it out of hand precisely because of its extremism. Even though like I said there is a lot of truth to it. Any noob that doesn't have all of the background, who is perhaps reading this thread after getting into comics in the last few years is either a) going to dismiss this as a CGC hater with an agenda (which based on your years of posts here is what I personally believe is the case but my opinion is irrelevant in the context of what I'm trying to tell you) or b) believe you completely and miss the bigger picture of the good that CGC has done for the hobby. Much like I tell my far left liberal and far right conservative friends... there is a happy middle.  

Most definitely not a CGC hater as I believe this hobby of ours is certainly a lot better and far safer for the collecting base with CGC here, as compared to the what was taking place before 3rd party grading and restoration checking was in place.  

With all of the apparent CGC acolytes here seemingly always bestowing the virtues of the company (like you ), it's also good to point out that this world of ours is not always perfect like the sweet and innocent days of wine and roses.  It just would have been so much better for CGC to have been proactive and upfront about the changes,instead of being reactive and having to explain the changes after the fact.  I actually felt sorry for Steve being caught in that particular situation at the time and finally disclosing the company line in order to explain how a book could go all the way from a CGC 4.0 grade up to a CGC 7.5 grade, before then going way up to a CGC 9.0 grade, all whilst residing in a CGC blue label holder.  

It just would have been so much better if they had informed the collecting base about all of these significant changes before they even graded their first book and they could have been collecting all of these additional revenue streams right from the get go.  Of course, there would most likely have been such an uproar from the collectors at the time, that CGC might not have even gotten off the ground at the time.  So, with CCG being a business enterprise and with their prior experience in the other collecting fields, I do understand why they did it the way they did, but that certainly does not mean that I have to like how it all went down.  

I agree with both of you.

 

[lou_fine]

On 4/30/2019 at 9:17 AM, Black_Adam said:

On 4/30/2019 at 8:52 AM, Ride the Tiger said:

I agree with th OPs suggestion. However. It would have a really negative effect on many comic collectors who currently have many PLODs sitting in their collection. Imagine word of this getting out. People would be buying up PLODs like crazy so they could resubmit them for a blue label. And imagine how pissed all those sellers would be after finding out they just gave their books away. I think it's way too late in the game to make a major change like this. But I do believe it should have been like that from the git go.

Ironically, I believe that is exactly what is happening in the current market. People are buying up all the PLODS and sending them in for restoration removal surgery in hopes of potential profit when that Purple header turns Blue.

My reasoning behind this entire thread is this: restored books are currently being submitted to CGC and coming back with Blue labels (after being cut, scraped, defaced). If this is already the case, why can't the books simply be downgraded accordingly, given the Blue label with the CT notation and returned unmutilated. 

Actually, with CGC's announced  change to their restoration rating scale a few years ago, you need not even bother to go through all that work in order to get your restored book out from the PLOD slab. 

With their more clearly defined restoration scale and also deeming some work as Conservation, it was a simple matter of cracking out a former PLOD book and resubmitting it back in for one of those blue/grey Conserved slabs, depending upon the work that had been done.  Looking backwards now, some of the astute buyers would stand to have made a lot of money by buying those much dreaded PLOD's in the early days when they were highly stigmatized by almost all collectors.  Especially since there seems to be a slightly better understanding of restored books nw and the type of work done to them, as compared to the early days when CGC first started out with just the stigmatizing purple labels.  

In fact, to the point whereby we are starting to seemingly see more acceptance of these Conserved and even Restored books.  Especially after the big Jon Berk Auction a couple summers ago, whereby even restored books are now finally going for big premiums and sometimes even multiples to condition guide and in particular, for the truly HTF rarer books.  

Edited May 8, 2019 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I agree with both of you.

 

I am certainly glad to see that all 3 of us are in agreement then.  

Nothing can be expected to be perfect, including CGC, but it's definitely a lot better than what we had before.  

[lou_fine]

On 4/30/2019 at 1:49 PM, VintageComics said:

I'm not sure if you are aware or not, but we discussed this sort of thing in great detail maybe 12-13 years ago on here.

CGC wanted to introduce a Blue label right across the board. It co-incided with their introduction of their in house restoration and removal service.

The boards shut it down and it never made it off the ground.

Since then, we've had detailed discussions on the topic.

Things got pretty heated on here. There was lots of name calling and accusations.

 

Yes, I clearly remember that long and much heated discussion on the boards here.  

I believe CGC and Steve in particular finally realized the impact or unintended consequences which their stigmatizing purple label was having on the value of restored books at the time.  As a result, they attempted to introduced a 15-point restoration rating system similar to the formal 10-point restoration rating system that Jon Berk had proposed in a written article for Comic Book Marketplace in the very early days of CGC.  I never could understand the rationale by many of the board members here at the time that they simply would never be able to understand a formal 10-point restoration rating system, and yet they seem to have absolutely no problems understanding a 10-point grading system.  Saying that you could not comprehend the difference between a R-0 rated Unrestored book from say a R-10 Extreme Amateur Restored book is like saying you cannot comprehend the difference between a CGC 0.5 Poor graded book from a CGC 9.8 NM/M graded book.   

My personal belief is that all of the backlash against the idea was also due to a case of extremely bad timing.  Especially since they tried to introduce this new idea right after the whole pressing (i.e. maximization of potential) and Ewert micro-trimming fiasco had come to light and were still fresh in the minds of everybody here.  Many simply dismissed this right away and saw it as possibly just another potential scam which was being foisted upon them as the credibility of CGC at the time was shall we say a bit suspect. 

A uni-color label system with a formal 10-point restoration rating system in conjunction with a formal 10-point grading system would definitely have been a good idea and most likely been happily accepted by the collecting base if it had been introduced right from the get go.  Definitely hard to close the barn door (i.e. to make changes) after the horses have already left.  

Edited May 8, 2019 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 4/30/2019 at 6:53 PM, VintageComics said:

The different colored labels (in my opinion) have created an exaggerated difference in price between Purple and Blue labels.

The market simply shunned Purple labels.

 

I do believe that if all labels were the same color from the start (with color touch notations on blue labels and a distinct way of notating quantity of CT) people would have been forced to learn the resto market better, and therefore value them better, reducing the price gap and therefore preventing or at least reducing the 2ndary market of resto removal.

 

 

On 5/1/2019 at 6:11 AM, VintageComics said:

What I think you will see eventually (or would have seen had it been done from the start) is a much better price spread for all the books that fall along the spectrum from heavily restored to no resto, rather than a huge divide between restored books and unrestored books with most restored books being clumped closer together in price.

It's just common sense that as you expose people to something they by nature learn more about it and become more accepting.

Roy;

In full agreement with your points here as I have also made virtually the same ones many times before in the past whenever this topic came up.  

Similarly, I believe pricing on books would have been significantly different if CGC had come up with a dual color labeling system for their graded books, dependent upon age and grade level to help "differentiate" them for the marketplace.  Say blue labels for all MA books graded CGC 9.8 and above, with say black labels for all MA books lower than CGC 9.8.  Or say blue labels for all CA books graded 9.6 and above, with black labels for all CA books lower than CGC 9.6. 

Well,you get the idea as I think we should be able to differentiate the difference between the various CGC grades and think for ourselves, without having CGC guide or direct us through the use of different colour labels.  

 

[LordRahl]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Most definitely not a CGC hater as I believe this hobby of ours is certainly a lot better and far safer for the collecting base with CGC here, as compared to the what was taking place before 3rd party grading and restoration checking was in place.  

With all of the apparent CGC acolytes here seemingly always bestowing the virtues of the company (like you ), it's also good to point out that this world of ours is not always perfect like the sweet and innocent days of wine and roses.  It just would have been so much better for CGC to have been proactive and upfront about the changes,instead of being reactive and having to explain the changes after the fact.  I actually felt sorry for Steve being caught in that particular situation at the time and finally disclosing the company line in order to explain how a book could go all the way from a CGC 4.0 grade up to a CGC 7.5 grade, before then going way up to a CGC 9.0 grade, all whilst residing in a CGC blue label holder.  

It just would have been so much better if they had informed the collecting base about all of these significant changes before they even graded their first book and they could have been collecting all of these additional revenue streams right from the get go.  Of course, there would most likely have been such an uproar from the collectors at the time, that CGC might not have even gotten off the ground at the time.  So, with CCG being a business enterprise and with their prior experience in the other collecting fields, I do understand why they did it the way they did, but that certainly does not mean that I have to like how it all went down.  

Not sure I would fall in this category. My eyes are not closed to the faults that CGC has had in the past and still have today. I am a supporter of the concept of 3rd party grading and CGC in particular as I appreciate what they have done for the hobby. That does not mean that I see no problems. There is room for improvement. I was as critical as most during the Ewert fiasco, the new gen holders damaging books etc. I also understand that they are running a business and a lot of the pie in the sky expectations/asks that collectors here have are just unrealistic and silly from the perspective of someone trying to run a profitable business. 

Also, this post of yours quoted above is much more measured and does not have the feel of a hater with an agenda. Unfortunately most of your posts having to do with CGC are not this measured and even the "complimentary" ones usually are back handed compliments. At least that is my take on it when I read your posts. I could of course be wrong but given that it's sometimes difficult for thoughts to translate well in an online forum, that is my impression from a limited method of communication such as this. I guess all I'm saying is that people like me (and I may be in the minority) would pay greater attention to what you have to say (and I think there is value in what you are saying) IF you were more measured in your presentation.  

[LordRahl]

10 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

 

Roy;

In full agreement with your points here as I have also made virtually the same ones many times before in the past whenever this topic came up.  

Similarly, I believe pricing on books would have been significantly different if CGC had come up with a dual color labeling system for their graded books, dependent upon age and grade level to help "differentiate" them for the marketplace.  Say blue labels for all MA books graded CGC 9.8 and above, with say black labels for all MA books lower than CGC 9.8.  Or say blue labels for all CA books graded 9.6 and above, with black labels for all CA books lower than CGC 9.6. 

Well,you get the idea as I think we should be able to differentiate the difference between the various CGC grades and think for ourselves, without having CGC guide or direct us through the use of different colour labels.  

 

I'm not sure if/what impact the label colors have on pricing of restored books. I know I like the color difference from an ease of use perspective. CBCS doesn't have different colors for restored books. I wonder if there is as big of a discrepancy in restored vs unrestored prices for their slabs. Or if there is enough market data available to see a trend with them. GPA doesn't track CBCS so I can't try to piece it together but maybe someone, somewhere is tracking CBCS?

[lou_fine]

On 5/1/2019 at 2:47 PM, Rip said:

On 5/1/2019 at 2:35 PM, bb8 said:

But my question is does this only apply to GA books (the only blue label books with the ‘very minor’ designation)? Has anyone seen a SA/BA/MA book to get a blue label with ct or glue?

Golden Age Only Period.  (Aside from errors)

Years ago I believe SB came on the boards and explained it was just due to the acceptance in the hobby and only when the grade would have had no apparent improvement anyway. 

I mentioned Snyder because he was known to mess with quite a few high quality GA books back in the day. Some have suggested this acceptance was due to some of his practices.

I believe that many of the board members here either do not realize or have forgotten that restored books way back in the day (around the late 70's and early 80's) were deemed to have added value in comparison to a previously unrestored copy.  Definitely an acceptable and possibly even recommended practice way back then, assuming proper disclosure of course.    

In fact, to the point whereby Overstreet even attempted to come up with some type of numerical determination in his guide whereby a restored book would be valued a certain percentage higher than its prior unrestored grade and yet lower than its new restored grade if it was unrestored.  

Thank goodness the hobby has learned from their past mistakes and advanced far enough that no collector would ever be crazy enough to even think of trying to "improve" their book in the hopes of being able to sell them for more money in this so much more consumer aware marketplace of ours nowadays.    

Edited May 8, 2019 by lou_fine

[blazingbob]

49 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

I'm not sure if/what impact the label colors have on pricing of restored books. I know I like the color difference from an ease of use perspective. CBCS doesn't have different colors for restored books. I wonder if there is as big of a discrepancy in restored vs unrestored prices for their slabs. Or if there is enough market data available to see a trend with them. GPA doesn't track CBCS so I can't try to piece it together but maybe someone, somewhere is tracking CBCS?

Having made the mistake of buying a Restored CBCS "blue" label (RESTORED is too small on the label) I'm sorry but I'm not a big fan of the one color.  When you train buyers with color coding it is very hard to un-learn something especially when you are tired.  I see blue,  I assume unrestored.  If I have to read the label on every book I'm looking at and I look at a lot of books I miss something.  And frankly that mistake cost me $500.  

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, LordRahl said:

'm not sure if/what impact the label colors have on pricing of restored books. I know I like the color difference from an ease of use perspective. CBCS doesn't have different colors for restored books. I wonder if there is as big of a discrepancy in restored vs unrestored prices for their slabs. Or if there is enough market data available to see a trend with them. GPA doesn't track CBCS so I can't try to piece it together but maybe someone, somewhere is tracking CBCS?

It's hard to say because you have almost 2 decades of a market that has already been programmed to look for two different colors.

As Bob just stated, many people didn't even realize that they were putting restored books into the same labels as unrestored books.

There are also many other factors to take into account, one being that CBCS is the 2nd major company to enter the market with certification.

But I do believe it would have been entirely different if they came out of the gate that way 20 years ago.

[lou_fine]

On 5/1/2019 at 6:52 PM, Rip said:

Avengers 4

CGC 9.8 $143,000

CGC 9.6 $23,500

Time to think about in-between grades

Or maybe it's time to educate certain segments of the marketplace that there is both a mathematically significant and financially acknowledged difference between $143K and $23.5K.  

And yet at the same time, even independent third party grading of a comic book is still at best only a subjective opinion at the time the book crosses a human grader's table.  As such, due to almost any number of contributing factors, a book which might grade out as a CGC 9.6 copy could conceivably be graded as a CGC 9.8 copy the next day or even a hour from then, and vice versa.  

That is, unless you truly believe this is a perfect world and if this is indeed the case why would you want to stop at only single decimal delineations between grades.  Especially when there must be a world of clear and obvious differences between a CGC 9.62 and CGC 9.63 graded book.  

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

8 hours ago, LordRahl said:

. I also understand that they are running a business and a lot of the pie in the sky expectations/asks that collectors here have are just unrealistic and silly from the perspective of someone trying to run a profitable business

Whenever I hear that us noobs need an explanation for why it’s ok to improve a book, I check to make sure my wallet is still in my pocket.  

[LordRahl]

5 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Whenever I hear that us noobs need an explanation for why it’s ok to improve a book, I check to make sure my wallet is still in my pocket.  

I have no idea how your comment relates to my quote Just as an example of what I was referring to with the "pie in the sky expectations"... when the Ewert fiasco was happening people were suggesting that CGC search for and review scans of books online to try and find micro-trimming. This of course is a great idea if we the customers want to foot the bill for the thousands of hours of research that would take But no one that was making that suggestion was willing to foot the bill IIRC.

What does running a profitable business have to do with restoring a book?

[blazingbob]

I am kind of surprised by the "moral compass" that gets applied to the grading of comics,  Pressing, restoration and removal.

When boiled down it always comes down to financial.

Pressing is very profitable to the grading company and the person having it done if the book upgrades.      

Restoration if done in a good conscious comes down to is it good for the book or bad conscious,  deceive the buyer into thinking the book is better then it really is.  Disclosure is only as good as the person selling the book.  Put the book into the wrong hands and the restoration magically disappears until discovered again.  

Restoration removal is a financial decision since the book is worth more if it is blue versus purple.  Doesn't matter how bad it looks the goal is a blue label.  Nothing like having a person bragging in front of a customer how he took a purple down to blue by scrapping away.  And then they wonder why the customer doesn't buy from them. 

The idea of "minimizing" the type of restoration is just another attempt at financial gain by those who need another revenue stream.  Sorry,  I'm black and white,  Restoration is restoration.  Yeah I get it,  Slight to Extensive but to those looking to change the financial landscape slight means a better shot at blue then extensive.  Could CGC have done a better job in the beginning?  Sure,  but if some remember the big obstacle was would the marketplace accept encapsulated comics?  You think the dealer pool could come to a consensus on how restoration could be addressed?  Why do you think that the comic market continues to deal in a "reactive" mode?  Because no industry group exists,  those Overstreet advisors last met when?  CGC has met with it largest customers to discuss changes when?  

It would be amazing to me if CGC worked with its biggest customers to discuss and make changes BEFORE they did something.  They grade em,  WE sell them.      

[theCapraAegagrus]

The difference between pressing, and color touch/other restoration, is that pressing doesn't change what the book is. Restoration modifies what the book is to what it could have been.

Let's compare it to the human body. Pressing = buying one of those compression shirts for slighty-overweight people. Restoration = fat injections. Color touch = nose job.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Like with body "enhancements", restoration isn't always awful. Sometimes it might be necessary. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with restoration just likes there's nothing inherently "wrong" about a person with bodily modifications.

[Get Marwood & I]

23 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

The difference between pressing, and color touch/other restoration, is that pressing doesn't change what the book is. Restoration modifies what the book is to what it could have been.

Let's compare it to the human body. Pressing = buying one of those compression shirts for slighty-overweight people. Restoration = fat injections. Color touch = nose job.

What does an arse lift compare to TwoPiece? Apart from putting me on a pedestal that is? 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, Get Marwood & I said:

What does an arse lift compare to TwoPiece? Apart from putting me on a pedestal that is? 

Butt implants?

Staple replacement.

[Get Marwood & I]

3 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Butt implants?

Staple replacement.

Oh, thank God. That's rust in my pants. Phew. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Get Marwood & I said:

Oh, thank God. That's rust in my pants. Phew. 

If it's moving, that's not rust...

Crabs.