CGC needs to modify its stance on Color Touch
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1 hour ago, Black_Adam said:

Isn't that what CGC does every time they grade a comic? If they see a black felt mark over a black area of the comic it is color touch (purple label). If they see a black felt mark over a green area it is just a wayward pen stroke (blue label). They have made the resto call based solely on a belief of intent.

No, absolutely not. I'm guessing you mean every time they grade a restored comic which is probably less than 1% of the books they grade but even then, they do not assign restoration based on intent. 

If someone takes a black marker to a portion of a comic that is black and has some paper damage, they call that CT, yes. But they don't try to determine whether or not that was intentional. Someone could have accidentally applied black marker to a crease on a black area of the book, and that would still be CT. Even if it was an accident. They determine CT by whether or not the CT attempts to make the book look like it did prior to whatever damage occurred. Not whether or not it was intentional. The reason a blue market applied to a red area isn't CT is because it does not accomplish that main point of attempting to make the book look more like it's original state.

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Marker on the book is restoration,  yet a a big ole signature in sharpie gets a yellow label.(shrug)

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13 hours ago, faster friends said:

Blue labels for everyone!!!

Unless you tore the cover off with your intention being to deceive.

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Not withstanding, a lot of amateur restoration makes a book look worse. Now, it not only has defects but half-baked, typically ineffective cover up that usually misses the mark by a mile on it as a visual distraction along with the defects of normal wear. Now you have the wear and you have defacement. But whether amateurishly ineffective, or executed with perfection, the attempt to conceal is restoration, whether it's a micromillimeter dot of ink from the head of a pin, or a stroke of acrylic from a 3 inch wide paint brush. CGC is typically right on the button, calling balls and strikes on what's resto and what isn't. I wouldn't monkey around with the system as it is.

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Absoloutly hate the idea of lowering standards.

There has to be a way to detect pressing.

Those books should be plods. Tape should be a Plod.

Sigs, dry erase, etc.

Alter the book in any way and it should be a plod.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NP_Gresham said:

There has to be a way to detect pressing.

IMO, the majority of books pressed using heat and more so using heat and moisture/humidity definitely have one to several consistent,potential tells.

Edited by James J Johnson

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16 hours ago, Black_Adam said:

The PLOD punishes the (deceived) buyer, not the seller. Treat the color touch and the defect it's masking for what they are - flaws - and grade accordingly.

I don't agree that hiding a flaw is, in fact, a "flaw".

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17 hours ago, Black_Adam said:

Restoration removal often involves cutting away the "restored" part of the comic, particularly with tear seals.

Let me get that right ... are you saying that CGC use scissors to cut away the “restored” part of the comic? Especially the tear seals? 

On the topic of CT with GA comics, I have seen some books that come with colour touch. It varies depending who is skillful with technical levels or an amateur. Some books I saw had color bleeding through from front cover surface to back of front cover to see color there. Other books that had CT so difficult to see unless use UV light to spot. Which looks so good to the point thatt the book should be left alone with CT. 

It depends on how much CT is bad in there or how much was applied on covers. I think the books with bad CT jobs should go PLOD to let buyers know that.  Blue labels with notes to info about color touch ... should be very miminal, but should be known of the fact this book received color touch there. But again, if this book get blue label with a note ... went into one of the auctions. The buyer would not noticed the fact, misled past thinking it is unrestored. So... it is sticky topic 

Myself I don’t like PLOD labels because of whoever did color touch on books, or did other restorative jobs on them. But on the other hand, isn’t classic vehicles that were restored to beautiful levels deserve PLOD labels? hm  

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3 hours ago, TwoPiece said:

I don't agree that hiding a flaw is, in fact, a "flaw".

Amateur colour touch with marker is definitely just adding another flaw. It makes the book look different, but it does a very, very poor job of hiding anything from anybody looking at the book closely enough to properly grade it.

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7 hours ago, oakman29 said:

Marker on the book is restoration,  yet a a big ole signature in sharpie gets a yellow label.(shrug)

Of course it gets a qualified label. There's a bunch of writing on it!

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1 hour ago, Fan Boy said:

Let me get that right ... are you saying that CGC use scissors to cut away the “restored” part of the comic? Especially the tear seals? 

 

I'm not sure the tool they used was even that advanced. On the one comic I sent in to have two minor tear seals removed from the back cover (I thought they would use some sort of solvent) they appear to have simply torn away the offending areas. Presto! Resto removed. As I said earlier, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

1840637653_Tearseal.jpg.d6be9a746eafcf1a5a62eadb6d711065.jpg

But I don't want to create the impression this is something new. This is how restoration "removal" has apparently always worked. I found this on the old Classics Incorporated site:

Many times removal involves defacement of the comic. Even when removing slight restoration, it is sometimes necessary to scrape, dig, cut, and obliterate parts of the comic to achieve an unrestored grade. This is especially true for removing amateur restoration, such as glue, and color touch that has bled through the paper. 

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How about everyone just start buying purple labels for the same price as the equivalent blue label slab? We don't need CGC to dictate what the value of a comic is. We can do it ourselves. 

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If I had to choose, based on what everyone has said here so far, I'm ok with the purple labels continuing, but also would like grading companies to not offer to butcher books in order to remove restoration.

The purple label just makes it 100% obvious to the buyer that a book as been altered. It doesn't determine value or desirability of any given book, that's what the market does. And the market seems to speak pretty clearly regarding color touched books.  I see OP's point, and agree with him to a large degree, but alas...

Just CGC, please for the love of pete stop destroying beautiful comics :(

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15 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Amateur colour touch with marker is definitely just adding another flaw. It makes the book look different, but it does a very, very poor job of hiding anything from anybody looking at the book closely enough to properly grade it.

You've convinced me to give up collecting comics.

I hate everything now.

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14 minutes ago, Black_Adam said:

Many times removal involves defacement of the comic. Even when removing slight restoration, it is sometimes necessary to scrape, dig, cut, and obliterate parts of the comic to achieve an unrestored grade. This is especially true for removing amateur restoration, such as glue, and color touch that has bled through the paper. 

I do understand your observations here; there are times the removal of restoration ends up looking worse than the actual restoration. I don't care much for that, either. However, I seriously doubt that CCS will change their position on this, because we do live in a society where the business side of things tends to influence most (if not all) of the decisions that are made. And CCS is simply offering another service to their customers. Moreover, I believe this decision rests solely with the owner of the book at that time. If they feel they'll be happier (or wealthier) by having the restoration removed, so be it. In most cases I'd advise against it, but people can ultimately do whatever they want if it's their personal property.

As far as the tools of the trade, if you've ever had your teeth cleaned at the dentist's office, you're well on your way to understanding the type of instruments that are often used for resto removal...   :fear:  

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I agree with th OPs suggestion. However. It would have a really negative effect on many comic collectors who currently have many PLODs sitting in their collection. Imagine word of this getting out. People would be buying up PLODs like crazy so they could resubmit them for a blue label. And imagine how pissed all those sellers would be after finding out they just gave their books away. I think it's way too late in the game to make a major change like this. But I do believe it should have been like that from the git go.

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23 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

I do understand your observations here; there are times the removal of restoration ends up looking worse than the actual restoration. I don't care much for that, either. However, I seriously doubt that CCS will change their position on this, because we do live in a society where the business side of things tends to influence most (if not all) of the decisions that are made. And CCS is simply offering another service to their customers. Moreover, I believe this decision rests solely with the owner of the book at that time. If they feel they'll be happier (or wealthier) by having the restoration removed, so be it. In most cases I'd advise against it, but people can ultimately do whatever they want if it's their personal property.

As far as the tools of the trade, if you've ever had your teeth cleaned at the dentist's office, you're well on your way to understanding the type of instruments that are often used for resto removal...   :fear:  

I prefer to save any money I would have wasted having my teeth cleaned so I can buy more comics...

Image result for wolverton bad teeth basil

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3 minutes ago, Black_Adam said:

I prefer to save any money I would have wasted having my teeth cleaned so I can buy more comics...

I love Basil Wolverton!  lol 

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9 minutes ago, Ride the Tiger said:

I agree with th OPs suggestion. However. It would have a really negative effect on many comic collectors who currently have many PLODs sitting in their collection. Imagine word of this getting out. People would be buying up PLODs like crazy so they could resubmit them for a blue label. And imagine how pissed all those sellers would be after finding out they just gave their books away. I think it's way too late in the game to make a major change like this. But I do believe it should have been like that from the git go.

Ironically, I believe that is exactly what is happening in the current market. People are buying up all the PLODS and sending them in for restoration removal surgery in hopes of potential profit when that Purple header turns Blue.

My reasoning behind this entire thread is this: restored books are currently being submitted to CGC and coming back with Blue labels (after being cut, scraped, defaced). If this is already the case, why can't the books simply be downgraded accordingly, given the Blue label with the CT notation and returned unmutilated. (shrug)

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