CGC needs to modify its stance on Color Touch
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15 minutes ago, Black_Adam said:

I prefer to save any money I would have wasted having my teeth cleaned so I can buy more comics...

Image result for wolverton bad teeth basil

You're English?!

 

Sorry, Marwood, low hanging fruit.

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1 minute ago, grebal said:

You're English?!

 

Sorry, Marwood, low hanging fruit.

Canadian. Close enough.

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50 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

There. I feel better now. Carry on :)

I'm laughing on the outside but crying on the inside...   lol  /  :cry:

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2 hours ago, Ride the Tiger said:

How about everyone just start buying purple labels for the same price as the equivalent blue label slab? We don't need CGC to dictate what the value of a comic is. We can do it ourselves. 

How, pray tell, is CGC dictating the value of comics? 

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1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

As we talk it all through the one thing that becomes clearer and clearer to me is how everything is about money. I can't for the life of me understand why a comic collector with a well presenting book that he loves, that they know has colour touch, would prefer to have that CT removed from an aesthetic point of view. The book looks better with the CT, especially in a slab. We put them in those things so we can't read them you know, so much do we love them. But scrape that CT off, and our cherished book often looks awful. 

So the only logical reason to have CT removed is to exploit the monetary gain. The average non-comic person would probably find it very peculiar that a book that looks nice is worth less than a book that looks awful. We restore great works of art and cars because we value the aesthetics. Who wants a rusty looking car or an old master covered in mould. But comics? No, let's butcher them so we can make a buck. Lets scratch a line down the cover where someone CT'd the subscription crease. Think about that for a moment. Let's take a knife, and cut away parts of this comic - to improve it's value. As The Count would say, "Vot!?" countvoncount.gif.7d28346854d5119590442f6da4e3e2fa.gif

So let's pay someone to butcher our book. Who shall we pay? I know, those guys who give our minor colour touched books purple labels which destroy our comics value (and they don't tell us it has CT until after we've paid them). Then, lets pay them same guys to crack it back open, and cut away parts of the comic. That's right - let's pay a team of people dedicated to the preservation of collectables to take a knife to our book! Then, lets pay them a third time to give the book a "Blue label" (which is what we wanted in the first place) - even though they have used a knife to improve it's appearance (a process known by it's Latin name "Trimmicus Hipocrasus"). Then, and only then, can we make more money than when we started. Who cares if the book looks horrific? It's doubled in value by going from nice looking to horrific! I'm delighted!

God forbid, but what a load of old cock our hobby can be at times.

Remember; if you take a knife to a book, that's trimming with intent to make the book look better. Damn you fiend! Take your purple label and begone! but if CGC take a knife to a book, with intent to make it look better, why, that's restoring the book to it's previous state! Even though there are lots of bits of it missing now! Give that book a BLUE LABEL! And an upgrade! Even though there is less of it in existence now than there was under it's previous grade!

 

There. I feel better now. Carry on :)

 

Why are you (or anyone) paying someone else to remove CT? You know you can do it yourself, right? And the second bolded part is just incorrect. CGC will not grade a book as restored if YOU take a knife to it and remove CT. It seems your problem is partly based on an incorrect assumption. That being that CCS is the only entity that can remove CT and get a blue label from CGC. That is not the case. Anyone can remove CT and get a blue label. 

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4 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

Why are you (or anyone) paying someone else to remove CT? You know you can do it yourself, right? And the second bolded part is just incorrect. CGC will not grade a book as restored if YOU take a knife to it and remove CT. It seems your problem is partly based on an incorrect assumption. That being that CCS is the only entity that can remove CT and get a blue label from CGC. That is not the case. Anyone can remove CT and get a blue label. 

So if I remove CT from the right hand edge of a comic by trimming it, it won't come back a trimmed PLOD?

Why is removing a frayed edge called trimming, and labelled as restoration, when removing intermittent dots of colour isn't called restoration? Both involve removing bits of the cover to make it look better?  

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

How, pray tell, is CGC dictating the value of comics? 

I wouldn't say they dictate value, but they certainly direct it every time they arbitrarily choose to emphasize one defect's impact on grade (staining) or deemphasize another (foxing) or decide to blue label one book with slight CT while PLODing another. Not to mention the substantial gray area inherant in assigning a grade...

Do they say a Hulk 181 should be worth $X? No. But they do say this Hulk 181 will be worth more than another based, at least partially, on unknown criteria. And you know as well as I do that lobbying for certain outcomes is a real thing.

Edited by october

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16 minutes ago, october said:

I wouldn't say they dictate value, but they certainly direct it every time they arbitrarily choose to emphasize one defect's impact on grade (staining) or deemphasize another (foxing) or decide to blue label one book with slight CT while PLODing another. Not to mention the substantial gray area inherant in assigning a grade...

Do they say a Hulk 181 should be worth $X? No. But they do say this Hulk 181 will be worth more than another based, at least partially, on unknown criteria. And you know as well as I do that lobbying for certain outcomes is a real thing.

I agree with most of that. I also don't like that they treat some defects more harshly than others, that they don't disclose their criteria and what gets me most is that they seem to at times change their stance on things and don't announce it. For example, they seem to now downgrade for printer's creases whereas they really didn't as far as I can tell years ago. But that is not the same thing as dictating value. We (the collectors) decided that restored books are worth far less than non restored books. Also, going by your criteria... anyone that assigns a grade to a book is "directing value". That is inherent in assigning a grade. There is no way around it. 

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21 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

So if I remove CT from the right hand edge of a comic by trimming it, it won't come back a trimmed PLOD?

Why is removing a frayed edge called trimming, and labelled as restoration, when removing intermittent dots of colour isn't called restoration? Both involve removing bits of the cover to make it look better?  

Because a book starts off as having a non frayed edge. The starting point of every book is what it looks like coming off the press. No frayed edges, no color touch, no defects other than whatever might have been present as it came off the press (like miswraps). When you color touch a book you are attempting to return it to its original (off the press) state. When you trim a frayed edge you are attempting to return it to its off the press state. When you remove color touch, you are attempting to return it to its pre color touched state NOT its original off the press state. You are damaging the book when you remove CT, plain and simple. You are not attempting to restore it to its original off the press state.

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And while on the subject:  Whether they lower the blue label grade with restoration noted (unlikely) or maintain the higher PL grade and describe restoration, they should rethink the description of what constitutes "slight color touch."  If they're going to denote that FF #1 back on page 2 as having a "slight color touch" when there appears to be - at the least - restoration on two letters (various areas), the Torch's body and the monster's mouth, then I'd ask for another designation like "very slight color touch" for CT on a spine tick or a corner or other localized area on a book.  That amount of resto should not be tarred with the same brush as the one here. 

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The problem isn't designation, though I completely agree with B_A on the principle.

The problem is the totally irrational and insane differences in value the market places on restored vs. unrestored books.

So long as it is financially rewarding to scrape the hell out of books....and it is...then this will continue, regardless of what CGC or any other grading company says.

A Hulk #1 that is a 7.5 with slight color touch is worth $7-$10k. That same book with CT scraped off is now a 6.5...but "worth" $30-$35k. 

THAT is the heart of the problem, and that is a problem that really can't be fixed by changing designations.

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4 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

Because a book starts off as having a non frayed edge. The starting point of every book is what it looks like coming off the press. No frayed edges, no color touch, no defects other than whatever might have been present as it came off the press (like miswraps). When you color touch a book you are attempting to return it to its original (off the press) state. When you trim a frayed edge you are attempting to return it to its off the press state. When you remove color touch, you are attempting to return it to its pre color touched state NOT its original off the press state. You are damaging the book when you remove CT, plain and simple. You are not attempting to restore it to its original off the press state.

And yet, as I said, both practices involve the same thing - removing parts of the book - and one is labelled positively and the other negatively. In the case of CT removal, it just does not seem right to me that a book that has had pieces removed in laboratory conditions for the sole purpose of improving its monetary value should get a Blue label. Its end state is artificial. At the very least, the label should note "colour touch professionally removed" so that the buyer knows what they are buying. 

In comparison,  few I think would argue against the notion that trimming is almost universally despised by collectors. When it's in doubt,  say micro trimmed, it is CGCs label that turns your love to hate.  You were happy until you saw that purple label. So there is evidence that collectors dont like books that have been tampered with. How is removing CT not tampering? Should a book that has been restored and then 'unrestored' be allowed to sit in the same colour holder as a book in its natural state? 

Nobody mention pressing :D

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1 minute ago, Get Marwood & I said:

And yet, as I said, both practices involve the same thing - removing parts of the book - and one is labelled positively and the other negatively. In the case of CT removal, it just does not seem right to me that a book that has had pieces removed in laboratory conditions for the sole purpose of improving its monetary value should get a Blue label. Its end state is artificial. At the very least, the label should note "colour touch professionally removed" so that the buyer knows what they are buying. 

In comparison,  few I think would argue against the notion that trimming is almost universally despised by collectors. When it's in doubt,  say micro trimmed, it is CGCs label that turns your love to hate.  You were happy until you saw that purple label. So there is evidence that collectors dont like books that have been tampered with. How is removing CT not tampering? Should a book that has been restored and then 'unrestored' be allowed to sit in the same colour holder as a book in its natural state? 

Nobody mention pressing :D

Scraped off CT might be easy to spot. What if there was CT on a corner of a book and removing it just involved tearing the corner off? How is CGC supposed to tell if that corner was torn off because someone removed CT or if it was torn off because someone snagged it on something or needed a piece of paper to roll their gum in? 

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3 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

Scraped off CT might be easy to spot. What if there was CT on a corner of a book and removing it just involved tearing the corner off? How is CGC supposed to tell if that corner was torn off because someone removed CT or if it was torn off because someone snagged it on something or needed a piece of paper to roll their gum in? 

They can't. Likewise with trimming. I carefully trim a scruffy edge with a knife, I get a PLOD. I tear it off and I get a Blue. It's nonsense. 

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Buy the book, not the label. If they’re not there to disclose restoration, what are they there for? If color touch isn’t an automatic plod what do you think is going to happen to all the unrestored GA comics out there? Probably the same thing to happen to them when pressing was no longer scandalous, right?

 

if you think color touch is no big deal, buy up all the purple labels you can. There’s a reason they make th labels though and I figure they aught to use them

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3 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

Buy the book, not the label. If they’re not there to disclose restoration, what are they there for? If color touch isn’t an automatic plod what do you think is going to happen to all the unrestored GA comics out there? Probably the same thing to happen to them when pressing was no longer scandalous, right?

 

if you think color touch is no big deal, buy up all the purple labels you can. There’s a reason they make th labels though and I figure they aught to use them

It's quite a good debate isn't it. No easy answers really. My last thought, accepting all the grey areas, is that a book with a few tiny dots of CT really shouldn't get lumped in with extensively restored books under the PLOD label. Especially when that label has such a massive affect on value and desirability. There has to be a fairer way to present the two ends of the spectrum. It's like giving people the death sentence for a parking ticket. 

 

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14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The problem isn't designation, though I completely agree with B_A on the principle.

The problem is the totally irrational and insane differences in value the market places on restored vs. unrestored books.

So long as it is financially rewarding to scrape the hell out of books....and it is...then this will continue, regardless of what CGC or any other grading company says.

A Hulk #1 that is a 7.5 with slight color touch is worth $7-$10k. That same book with CT scraped off is now a 6.5...but "worth" $30-$35k. 

THAT is the heart of the problem, and that is a problem that really can't be fixed by changing designations.

So how's this for an idea.  Instead of giving a restored comic a blue label with restoration noted, how about they have two grades on the restored label.  What the comic presents as and what they estimate the grade would be before restoration was done to it?  Or what the comic presents as and what they estimate the grade would be if the restoration was removed.  The reason that plods get such lower values is that for many people (and especially over the internet) it is very hard to figure out what slight, moderate, and extensive restoration means.   As such one never knows if you are buying a classic comic or a frankenbook.  I really think this would lessen the penalty of PLODs and discourage restoration removal.

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Maybe the should do different shades of purple? (shrug)

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