delekkerste Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, tth2 said: Hasn't seemed to deter any of the players who are setting ever rising records in the current Heritage auction. Also, price is what you pay, value is what you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_K Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 29 minutes ago, delekkerste said: For several people I've spoken to, it's the straw that's broken the camel's back. What does that mean ?? The end of a collecting career ? Only trading ? Only dealing in cash ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Will_K said: What does that mean ?? Gray. Market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Will_K said: What does that mean ?? The end of a collecting career ? Only trading ? Only dealing in cash ? The sales tax issue has definitely had an impact - I sold a piece to a collector this week who told me that, with New Jersey no longer being a sales tax haven for him, he's taken to buying privately as much as possible instead of buying at auction. I know at least a couple of collectors who have basically said they're done buying at auction (some have expressed the same sentiment in this Forum)...now, I'm not convinced that's a literal "nevermore", but, it probably means they and others will be buying less, and that some who have already pulled back over the past few years will appear, for all intents and purposes, to be semi-retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 35 minutes ago, delekkerste said: I sold a piece to a collector this week who told me that, with New Jersey no longer being a sales tax haven for him, he's taken to buying privately as much as possible instead of buying at auction. The only way this works is...tax evasion LUV THIS THREAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstojano Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 5 hours ago, delekkerste said: The sales tax issue has definitely had an impact - I sold a piece to a collector this week who told me that, with New Jersey no longer being a sales tax haven for him, he's taken to buying privately as much as possible instead of buying at auction. I know at least a couple of collectors who have basically said they're done buying at auction (some have expressed the same sentiment in this Forum)...now, I'm not convinced that's a literal "nevermore", but, it probably means they and others will be buying less, and that some who have already pulled back over the past few years will appear, for all intents and purposes, to be semi-retired. Count me as one of these people. I will suck it up when I have to but that extra 8% on top of the 20%, well like you said it broke the camels back a bit for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtlevy1 Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, cstojano said: Count me as one of these people. I will suck it up when I have to but that extra 8% on top of the 20%, well like you said it broke the camels back a bit for me. Another reason we,as a community, should be able to do more collector - collector deals...between the vig and taxes there is quite a bit of room to come to terms,,,that said, I feel there are quite a few folk that need the comfort of other bidders to estimate market value Edited November 23, 2019 by mtlevy1 John E., GMRS and BCarter27 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 5 hours ago, mtlevy1 said: I feel there are quite a few folk that need the comfort of other bidders to estimate market value For those that were around 20-25 years ago, when you wanted to buy a really big piece you almost always had to have equivalent "level" trade material (and maybe 'some' cash too). Why? Because aside from Sotheby's/Christie's comps (primarily EC and serious Golden/Silver Age material) there were no public numbers at four figures and above. Without that you really couldn't just "put" $25k on something and expect anything in return other than laughter. That's why circa 1995 Mike Burkey famously told Ed Hodder to take $15k for GSX #1 cover, because it would never, ever be worth more At least that's how I remember it. It's Mike's story to correct if I'm off a bit. Taxes are deflationary. By definition. Take the facts and the trend and let your mind wander from there... Twanj 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippiecop Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 It was the X-Men #94 cover, but everything else is correct. Twanj 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, hippiecop said: It was the X-Men #94 cover, but everything else is correct. Yes! Cockrum not Kane!! (and even harder to justify $15k CASH for that reason too.) Twanj 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 When did heritage start auctioning comic art and when did they start leaving sales info up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Jay Olie Espy said: When did heritage start auctioning comic art and when did they start leaving sales info up? 2001 iirc? Unlike CLink, their history was always wide open, initially you didn't even have to "sign up" first. That transparency is a good thing that also helped stairstep prices up across the board. Heritage stepped into the void left by Sotheby's and Christie's slumming in comics/art in the 1990s when fine art was in a major recession due to Japan, Inc. implosion (a long slow ride that continues to unravel...great job BOJ!) Others tried too: off the top of my head Greg Manning, Mastro(net), Jay Parinno's The Mint, PIH, surely others too. Mostly coin guys. HA won the battle for the many reasons that eBay and PayPal did in their respective spaces. Not sure how attractive the hobby would have been to any of those folks without professional grading being in place though. That's what jacked up coins and cards, and that's what everybody wanted - to ride comics all the way up too. Twanj and John E. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malvin Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Sales tax has certainly affected me. There were a few times on ebay when I thought something was a great buy, then I saw the price with sales tax and it made me think more carefully before deciding not to buy it. It's giving me more discipline and now I buy less junk Malvin delekkerste, John E. and Catwoman_Fan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tth2 Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 2 hours ago, vodou said: Others tried too: off the top of my head Greg Manning, Mastro(net), Jay Parinno's The Mint, PIH, surely others too. Mostly coin guys. HA won the battle for the many reasons that eBay and PayPal did in their respective spaces. Heritage won the battle by buying Greg Manning. Manning had the first really big online auction of the CGC era, and Heritage built off of that platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, tth2 said: Heritage won the battle by buying Greg Manning. Manning had the first really big online auction of the CGC era, and Heritage built off of that platform. Is that correct? I don't see any mention of that here - https://www.company-histories.com/Greg-Manning-Auctions-Inc-Company-History.html But GMAI also does not look like an ongoing concern past about 2004. I think the Bill Hughes chunk moved from Manning to Mastro, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romitaman Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, vodou said: For those that were around 20-25 years ago, when you wanted to buy a really big piece you almost always had to have equivalent "level" trade material (and maybe 'some' cash too). Why? Because aside from Sotheby's/Christie's comps (primarily EC and serious Golden/Silver Age material) there were no public numbers at four figures and above. Without that you really couldn't just "put" $25k on something and expect anything in return other than laughter. That's why circa 1995 Mike Burkey famously told Ed Hodder to take $15k for GSX #1 cover, because it would never, ever be worth more At least that's how I remember it. It's Mike's story to correct if I'm off a bit. Taxes are deflationary. By definition. Take the facts and the trend and let your mind wander from there... Actually... Ed had the X-Men 94 cover.... and this happened at one of our ever classic NORTHERN OHIO ART GATHERINGS which were very frequent and lot of collectors attended from about 1993-2002 or so. but that 15k figure offered to Ed for the X-men 94 cover was around 1993-1994...which was unheard of territory at the time. I was still paying 200-300 dollars for large art John Romita ASM pages and pre 100 ASM Romita small art Covers were under 1000 still . LOL Edited November 24, 2019 by romitaman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstojano Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) Well I won my first Sunday auction since sales tax went into effect. It looks like the tax is charged on the hammer, bp, and shipping. It is hard to tell because tax rates where I live vary depending on the specific part of town you are in. Another HA changed I noted - the 1% discount for echeck is gone and a 2.5% credit card fee has now been added (my cc number is conspicuously not in the system anymore I assume due to the hack). The party is really over. I didn't overspend, but mentally prefer paying by card for the security, cash back bonus, and stacking of bills into one convenient register. I expect bp to nudge up over 20% soon as well. These all seem like very small changes but it is enough to turn me off. Edited November 25, 2019 by cstojano John E. and Twanj 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 hour ago, cstojano said: Well I won my first Sunday auction since sales tax went into effect. It looks like the tax is charged on the hammer, bp, and shipping. It is hard to tell because tax rates where I live vary depending on the specific part of town you are in. Another HA changed I noted - the 1% discount for echeck is gone and a 2.5% credit card fee has now been added (my cc number is conspicuously not in the system anymore I assume due to the hack). The party is really over. I didn't overspend, but mentally prefer paying by card for the security, cash back bonus, and stacking of bills into one convenient register. I expect bp to nudge up over 20% soon as well. These all seem like very small changes but it is enough to turn me off. A further BP hike would be disastrous, as it greatly increases the friction/transaction costs. Maybe it will be absorbed without much fanfare in a strong market, but, when the market eventually cools down, whether due to cyclical or longer-term secular reasons, it's going to be a very big deal. Which is why, as much as I like Heritage, I actively root for the success of their rivals as well. We've already seen the BP rise from 19.5% to 20% in the past couple of years, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they did that in the face of weakened competition. If HA's dominance continues unchecked, it wouldn't be a stretch to see the BP rise further at some point. John E. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pubestache Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) In regards to Heritage, Have they removed Paypal payments? I'm about to pay for an auction I won, $220ish nothing too expensive, and the PayPal option is gone. I've always used PayPal and paid for auctions much more than that with it. Edited November 25, 2019 by Pubestache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tth2 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Is the credit charge even relevant? Heritage started limiting credit card payments to some ridiculously low amount years ago, so that payment method hasn't even been relevant for many buyers for a while now. Which has been a real hassle for overseas buyers such as myself, because now I usually have to pay by wire transfer which means schlepping to the bank and filling in the wire transfer form. It used to be so much easier when I could just charge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
