To slab or not to slab: An actual discussion on the (de)merits of grading 0

[ExNihilo]

Right off the bat, this isn't another one of SWAMI's threads, so I'm gonna apologize in advance for anyone that got their hopes up.  But the subject title seemed fitting and I'm not exactly opposed to a little bit of satire.  (Though, if my post is the serious one, and his is the comedic one...then what's the opposite of satire?)

That all being said, I saw this tweet from Larsen.  More surprising to me was the large number of respondents who agreed and took his side on the discussion.  I think it just goes to show how much of a niche following there really is for CGC graded books, even amongst comic collectors.

I realize this board will obviously veer on the other end of the spectrum, but i'm curious to know peoples thoughts on both creator opinions as well as the opinions of other non-CGC collectors.  The primary excuse that books are meant to be read seems to fall flat in this day and age where many books can be read digitally.

 

[NoMan]

I think this has been covered before here but I personally don't mind as everything here has been discussed before. Everybody collects how they collect and love is all around for everyone, including my wife's stupid-a** friend that's really mad at me now. So f her. 

Anyhoo, I fear restoration as in my restoration detection skills are nonexistent and I feel CGC is pretty good at that, hence buying books already CGCed. If I want to read the books I don't buy encased in plastic. Easy. Don't know who Erik Larsen is but perhaps he should realize that it's a free country and not everyone into comics is into comics to read 'em, although I like to read 'em.

[mattn792]

"literally unreadable" is bs - crack the book it out if you feel that you absolutely must read that particular copy.

[mattn792]

3 minutes ago, NoMan said:

I think this has been covered before here but I personally don't mind as everything here has been discussed before. Everybody collects how they collect and love is all around for everyone, including my wife's stupid-a** friend that's really mad at me now. So f her. 

Anyhoo, I fear restoration as in my restoration detection skills are nonexistent and I feel CGC is pretty good at that, hence buying books already CGCed. If I want to read the books I don't buy encased in plastic. Easy. Don't know who Erik Larsen is but perhaps he should realize that it's a free country and not everyone into comics is into comics to read 'em, although I like to read 'em.

Larsen has quite a work history -- http://comicbookdb.com/creator.php?ID=205

I'm personally a fan, largely for his contribution to the Apocalypse: The 12 storyline (it got me back into collecting oh so many years ago ), but I couldn't disagree with him more on this point.

[NoMan]

1 hour ago, mattn792 said:

Larsen has quite a work history -- http://comicbookdb.com/creator.php?ID=205

I'm personally a fan, largely for his contribution to the Apocalypse: The 12 storyline (it got me back into collecting oh so many years ago ), but I couldn't disagree with him more on this point.

Good for him! I figured he was important or he wouldn't be on Twitter telling us all what he thinks. 

[tv horror]

I don't have any CGC books and enjoy my comics in the raw state however what I can't abide is a large autograph across a classic cover, that saddens me. Yes I do own a lot of DF signed comics but the reason I have them is that I admired the creators and it was possibility the only way I would ever get them. A few of them have since died yet I still treasure them, then again none of them are on classic covers just titles associated with them. Here is an example.

 

[BladeTX]

3 hours ago, mattn792 said:

"literally unreadable" is bs - crack the book it out if you feel that you absolutely must read that particular copy.

Now someone is talking some sense!!!

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

Right off the bat, this isn't another one of SWAMI's threads, so I'm gonna apologize in advance for anyone that got their hopes up.  But the subject title seemed fitting and I'm not exactly opposed to a little bit of satire.  (Though, if my post is the serious one, and his is the comedic one...then what's the opposite of satire?)

That all being said, I saw this tweet from Larsen.  More surprising to me was the large number of respondents who agreed and took his side on the discussion.  I think it just goes to show how much of a niche following there really is for CGC graded books, even amongst comic collectors.

I realize this board will obviously veer on the other end of the spectrum, but i'm curious to know peoples thoughts on both creator opinions as well as the opinions of other non-CGC collectors.  The primary excuse that books are meant to be read seems to fall flat in this day and age where many books can be read digitally.

 

The argument has always fallen flat, digital age or no.

Creators have historically not understood collectors. Creators react with varying degrees of confusion, from puzzled bemusement to naked, hostile, aggressive contempt for those who care about collecting and especially for those that care about condition. 

They don't get it, and never have (with very few exceptions.)

It took a long time for creators in the 70s and 80s to understand the concept of bags and boards, after all.

Creators simply cannot fathom why A. someone would care about the condition of these items, and B. why anyone would want more than a single example, regardless of form. So, yes, anything that appears to them to be limiting the ability of people to access their work, they will be knee-jerk (and it IS knee-jerk) opposed to. They can't grasp that the reason why people get these things slabbed is precisely BECAUSE they appreciate the work of the creator. They think that people who slab books are doing so for $$$, and no other reason. And they're not wrong, at least initially. But they don't follow that argument to its logical conclusion: that the "end-users" of these items are collectors, collectors who buy these things because they appreciate the art of the artform. 

And even so-called "speculators" and "investors" are rare immune from the siren call of the artform, as these pieces of paper silently call out "read me.....! Reeeeead me.....! You can't resist the lure of my colors, of my lines, of my art, of my dialogue...you can't resist forever..........."

I have an X-Men #94-143 9.8 SS set I'm building precisely because I...and many thousands of people like me...admire, respect, and appreciate the work, and enjoy owning it in its original form, in the best possible condition. 

Creators also don't respect...because, again, they don't understand....that many of the books they worked on have value precisely because of their work. To them, there's no difference between the original and the 473rd print..it's all the same effort. And so they scorn the fact that it costs money to own originals, often lots of money, and don't respect that value paid by collectors.

And, to be blunt, CGC has fumbled the ball in these situations, and not gotten ahead of these issues in the manner that they should.

The way to fix it is to explain to creators, over and over until they get it, the above. That yes, people who get books slabbed can be, and mostly are, real fans, and YES, it's a rather expensive process, and NO, your signature is not even remotely the same kind of service or effort that CGC provides, and YES, I can (and mostly do!) enjoy your work and STILL get it slabbed, and NO, the books don't have to remain in the slab forever.

And until COLLECTORS...CUSTOMERS...start standing up to creators and...politely..pushing back and explaining these things, it will only get worse and worse and worse, until the entire creative community has completely poisoned itself. And that includes confronting the so-called "facilitators" who only facilitate money into their own pockets by lying to creators about the goals and purpose of Sig Series.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, mattn792 said:

"literally unreadable" is bs - crack the book it out if you feel that you absolutely must read that particular copy.

Until Erik Larsen hears that from a lot of people, he won't be changing his mind. He may never anyways, but until people start telling him this, he definitely never will.

 

[ExNihilo]

9 hours ago, NoMan said:

I think this has been covered before here but I personally don't mind as everything here has been discussed before. Everybody collects how they collect and love is all around for everyone, including my wife's stupid-a** friend that's really mad at me now. So f her. 

Anyhoo, I fear restoration as in my restoration detection skills are nonexistent and I feel CGC is pretty good at that, hence buying books already CGCed. If I want to read the books I don't buy encased in plastic. Easy. Don't know who Erik Larsen is but perhaps he should realize that it's a free country and not everyone into comics is into comics to read 'em, although I like to read 'em.

You're right.  Even in the short time I've been on the boards, I've seen a fair share of less discussed topics get pushed off the front page.  And considering the boards have been around for 15+ years (??) i'm sure a lot of stuff's been brought up on numerous occasions.  Apologies if it gets brought up a lot.  It was just the first time that I've seen a creator so publicly come out against slabbing that it seemed interesting.

[Comics4All]

17 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

Right off the bat, this isn't another one of SWAMI's threads, so I'm gonna apologize in advance for anyone that got their hopes up.  But the subject title seemed fitting and I'm not exactly opposed to a little bit of satire.  (Though, if my post is the serious one, and his is the comedic one...then what's the opposite of satire?)

That all being said, I saw this tweet from Larsen.  More surprising to me was the large number of respondents who agreed and took his side on the discussion.  I think it just goes to show how much of a niche following there really is for CGC graded books, even amongst comic collectors.

I realize this board will obviously veer on the other end of the spectrum, but i'm curious to know peoples thoughts on both creator opinions as well as the opinions of other non-CGC collectors.  The primary excuse that books are meant to be read seems to fall flat in this day and age where many books can be read digitally.

 

AWWWW! I thought Swampi Gas had a new Mystery Box of Trek to post! 

Larsen just likes to be controversial! To each their own! CGC serves a purpose! People like it or it wouldn't sill exist, 

[NoMan]

7 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

You're right.  Even in the short time I've been on the boards, I've seen a fair share of less discussed topics get pushed off the front page.  And considering the boards have been around for 15+ years (??) i'm sure a lot of stuff's been brought up on numerous occasions.  Apologies if it gets brought up a lot.  It was just the first time that I've seen a creator so publicly come out against slabbing that it seemed interesting.

No worries. Like I said, doesn't bother me.

It seems a number of creators get angry around the SS program and slabbing in general. No, I don't have examples. But I'm sure someone reading this thread does. 

[punksdropdirtysrh]

I hate it when guys harsh on slabbed books “because you can’t read them” therefore you don’t read and aren’t appreciating comics the right way. I slab my favorite books/covers for fun and also own either the Omnibus or paperback for reading. Some guys need to get over it. 

[mattn792]

50 minutes ago, NoMan said:

No worries. Like I said, doesn't bother me.

It seems a number of creators get angry around the SS program and slabbing in general. No, I don't have examples. But I'm sure someone reading this thread does. 

John Byrne and BWS are the two most prominent SS boycotts that I can think of.

[Comics4All]

36 minutes ago, punksdropdirtysrh said:

I hate it when guys harsh on slabbed books “because you can’t read them” therefore you don’t read and aren’t appreciating comics the right way. I slab my favorite books/covers for fun and also own either the Omnibus or paperback for reading. Some guys need to get over it. 

If I get a slabbed book instead of a raw book in a purchase , that's fine. I don't exclusively go for slabbed or raw, but when I do buy a slabbed book, I have had friends who say "Have fun with your book you can never read" & my response is I already have read the book a million times or I own a raw copy or a TPB of it.

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by comics4all

[theCapraAegagrus]

[jason4]

No.

I love my slabs and cgc. I'm not handling high dollar books. That's what reprints and digital is for. 

[Joosh]

How could I not have this slabbed? Erik Larson is missing out by alienating his fans who like CGC.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, mattn792 said:

3 hours ago, NoMan said:

No worries. Like I said, doesn't bother me.

It seems a number of creators get angry around the SS program and slabbing in general. No, I don't have examples. But I'm sure someone reading this thread does. 

John Byrne and BWS are the two most prominent SS boycotts that I can think of.

John Byrne and BWS are both extremely selfish and greedy, who deeply resent anyone making what they consider "money off of them." BWS even goes so far as to write terms of resale into anything he sells to you...meaning, if you turn around and sell something he sold to you, you have to go back and pay him a specified amount of that future transaction. Neither of them understands that the reason people pay so much for their signatures is precisely because they're so stingy with them. If they freely and happily signed books, then, eventually, only the people who really wanted the books would seek out their signatures. Their reluctance to sign creates the very value they despise.

And that's really unfortunate, because their work stands at the pinnacle of the artform, and has brought me no end of enjoyment.

It's the people who try to monetize signatures...like the so-called "facilitators" who "stable" artists, for their own personal use...that create these false impressions in creators, by outright lying to them about the goals and purposes of the Sig Series program. "Oh, everyone who slabs is making $$$ off your signature, and YOU should be getting a piece of that! In fact, if you let ME handle it, I'll make SURE you get your fair share!" And I know this, because I have been told this by creators, on multiple occasions, in multiple places.

...and that's a lie which rests on two false premises: 1. that everyone who slabs is making $$$, and 2. that any signature, added to anything, makes that item "more valuable."

Neither of those are true. But creators don't know that. Creators, for the most part, don't collect (see my comment above) and don't understand collectors and collecting, so they are easily lied to and misled. And, worse, they've been told by people acting on CGC's behalf...in direct contradiction to CGC policies for facilitators and witnesses...that they should "charge more for CGC." Facilitators and witnesses are, by policy, not allowed to offer their opinions on such matters. It's an obvious conflict of interest. Telling creators they should "charge more for CGC" not only helps line the pockets of those "facilitators" who take a portion of that "upcharge", it harms both creators and CGC, by fewer books being signed (by otherwise willing creators!) and fewer books being submitted.

Frankly, facilitators shouldn't be allowed to also "represent" creators in the first place, but that's not my decision. 

Look at the signed books I've posted in "this week back from CGC." The vast majority of those books have no real value. I get them because it makes ME happy. X-Factor #41, signed by Walt, Louise, and Art? Functionally worthless...I'm not "making money" from it, even at 9.8. And that's because Walt, Louise, and, up until last year, Art, are willing to sign whatever gets put in front of them, to the extent that they can.

It is the value and condition of the underlying book that makes a slab valuable...NOT the signature, with rare exceptions. Frank Frazetta is a rare exception. Erik Larsen is not.

Edited May 9, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Joosh said:

Erik Larson is missing out by alienating his fans who like CGC.

That's exactly correct. And you can only alienate your fans for so long....