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Man, I wish CGC guaranteed grades like this....
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47 posts in this topic

This is from PCGS, the most strict and highly respected coin grading, certification and encapsulation service.  (CGC's sister company NGC is also very good, but not quite the respect of PCGS.  And here's why).

From the PCGS website, they will guarantee that their grade is accurate.  If determined to be over-graded or a counterfeit, they will buy it back at market rates or pay the difference between the over-graded value and the real value.  I saw this in action when I was collecting.  Someone had a Pop 1 of 1 (highest) graded Lincoln cent.  The coin had been bought at auction for a bit above $80,000.   In a later auction, it was determined there were undetected flaws and PCGS wrote the collector a check for the full $80K.  Now THAT's what CGC should do.   They charge a lot to grade high value comics, they should stand by it.  If they miss a restoration, it should be on them.

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PCGS Website:

PCGS guarantees that all United States and World coins submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with the PCGS grading standards and under the procedures of PCGS. In addition;

  • All U.S. and World coins graded and encapsulated by PCGS are guaranteed genuine.
  • The grade of all U.S. and World coins graded and encapsulated by PCGS is guaranteed.

In the event the purchaser of a PCGS graded coin believes that the coin has been overgraded with respect to such standards and procedures, or is non-authentic, he may submit such coin to PCGS through the PCGS "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures and PCGS will re-examine coin to determine the coin's grade and authenticity.

If the grade determined under such "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures is lower than the grade originally assigned to the coin, or if the coin is found to be misattributed or non-authentic, PCGS shall pay the current market value for the coin in question at the originally assigned grade (in which case, PCGS shall become the owner of the coin), or at the owner of the coin's option, the difference between the current market value for the coin in question at the newly established grade and the current market value of the coin in question at the grade originally assigned (in which case, the coin at the newly established grade will be returned to the owner). PCGS will also refund the regrading fee and postage and insurance costs incurred by the coin owner in sending the coin to PCGS.

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15 minutes ago, ThothAmon said:

Has this been an issue?

Wouldn't you like to know that if you sent in your precious, hyper-expensive 9.9 for a reholder that CGC would guarantee that it comes back a 9.9?  Or they would buy the book?  I've got a friend who has a very high value 9.9 in an old holder with a small crack.  He wants to get it into a new holder.  But CGC does not guarantee their grades.  If someone sees something that previously was missed, that book will come back as a 9.8 and my friend will lose about $8,000.   So yeah, it's an issue.

He also has a decent grade AF15.  He would like to get that put in the new Marvel custom holder.  But he told me if CGC reconsiders the grade and drops it by just .5, the value will immediately drop $5,000.    Give the grade, back your reputation on it and stand by it.

Edited by BladeTX
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1 minute ago, Lazyboy said:

I'm sure CGC will do that right after somebody invents a case that prevents any possible damage to its contents. So... never.

Comics are not coins. [/thread]

Though orders of magnitude less likely, coins can be damaged in slabs, too.

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2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I'm sure CGC will do that right after somebody invents a case that prevents any possible damage to its contents. So... never.

Comics are not coins. [/thread]

Oh you can seriously mess up a coin by cracking it out - those things are sonically sealed and a Mother to crack out.  Put a scratch on a very nice coin and there goes $50K.   So I don’t get your point.  I’m sure at minimum grading fee of $40 (coin grading prices) and 3-4% of value, they could do just about anything. 

At any rate, I knew this was hypothetical.  I wish it could be done.  I know comics are fragile.  I guess there are situations where a comic degrades and it is not CGC’s fault.  Like the staples of this Hulk 181 9.8 that spent 3 years in a fireproof safe in a CGC holder...

 

63D1EB52-9A6C-43A0-B406-4B09302B3741.jpeg

Edited by BladeTX
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6 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

Oh you can seriously mess up a coin by cracking it out - those things are sonically sealed and a Mother to crack out.  Put a scratch on a very nice coin and there goes $50K.   So I don’t get your point.  I’m sure at minimum grading fee of $40 (coin grading prices) and 3-4% of value, they could do just about anything. 

At any rate, I knew this was hypothetical.  I wish it could be done.  I know comics are fragile.  I guess there are situations where a comic degrades and it is not CGC’s fault.  Like the staples of this Hulk 181 9.8 that spent 3 years in a fireproof safe in a CGC holder...

 

63D1EB52-9A6C-43A0-B406-4B09302B3741.jpeg

That's a Hulk #182. Good reminder about why slabs cannot be stored in a non-humidity controlled environment.  

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I can see the reasoning for wanting them to stand behind their grade.  But on the same token you said the 1st friend has a slab with a crack.  CGC has to ask how that crack came about and if it is from mishandling then they have to wonder if the comic within has suffered from that as well and should then review it to be sure their original number is accurate.  As for the the AF15 scenario, reholdering shouldn't immediately cause a grade to drop.  But once again can't mishandling the slab come into play here as well?

Do the housing for coins have the same gaps inside that allow it to move around?  I am not sure what CGC would do or even how you would go about proving they were in the wrong on a restored comic that got past them.  Has that happened before?

 

 

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15 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's a Hulk #182. Good reminder about why slabs cannot be stored in a non-humidity controlled environment.  

Yeah, whatever, I just grabbed the pic from a thread about the damages of fireproof safes.  CGC even issued a warning on it.   I don't collect Superhero comics so was not exactly sure of the 1st Wolverine issue but that's it.

And it had nothing to do with humidity.  It is the chemicals in the fireproofing material that did this.    I do think humidity in a normal house is overrated.   Seen people with thousands of slabs displayed and not problems.  But I don't take chances on my expensive books - they are in a non-fireproof safe that is humidity controlled.

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3 minutes ago, Crops068 said:

I can see the reasoning for wanting them to stand behind their grade.  But on the same token you said the 1st friend has a slab with a crack.  CGC has to ask how that crack came about and if it is from mishandling then they have to wonder if the comic within has suffered from that as well and should then review it to be sure their original number is accurate.  As for the the AF15 scenario, reholdering shouldn't immediately cause a grade to drop.  But once again can't mishandling the slab come into play here as well?

Do the housing for coins have the same gaps inside that allow it to move around?  I am not sure what CGC would do or even how you would go about proving they were in the wrong on a restored comic that got past them.  Has that happened before?

 

 

I'm not sure but I have to assume if they damage a book in grading, I would hope their integrity is high enough to contact the collector and make restitution.   Hence the high prices for insuring the books at CGC.  I doubt they get much theft there lol.   Yes, the coins are generally completely immobilized in the slabs but every so often they rotate.  

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1 minute ago, BladeTX said:

I'm not sure but I have to assume if they damage a book in grading, I would hope their integrity is high enough to contact the collector and make restitution.   Hence the high prices for insuring the books at CGC.  I doubt they get much theft there lol.   Yes, the coins are generally completely immobilized in the slabs but every so often they rotate.  

I think you misunderstand my comments or are you implying that the crack and the mishandling of AF15 would happened at CGC?  If so, I assume anything is possible but I would imagine with one being an old slab that is pretty hard to prove and the other having a crack, unless it was there when they received it and they documented and contacted CGC then that is also pretty hard to prove.  I believe I have heard of someone on here saying that their book was damaged by a grader and they were compensated for it.  So I think if CGC had done the damage, I would hope they would fess up.

What I was saying is that the owner of the slabbed item or someone that came into contact with it after they received it could have mishandled it.  That is what CGC has to contend with, that is their unknown.  So when items are sent back in for reholdering or due to cracks, it is absolutely in CGC's best interest to be sure the item is still in the same condition (or even the same item) it was when they sent it out previously.

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3 hours ago, BladeTX said:

Wouldn't you like to know that if you sent in your precious, hyper-expensive 9.9 for a reholder that CGC would guarantee that it comes back a 9.9?  Or they would buy the book?  I've got a friend who has a very high value 9.9 in an old holder with a small crack.  He wants to get it into a new holder.  But CGC does not guarantee their grades.  If someone sees something that previously was missed, that book will come back as a 9.8 and my friend will lose about $8,000.   So yeah, it's an issue.

He also has a decent grade AF15.  He would like to get that put in the new Marvel custom holder.  But he told me if CGC reconsiders the grade and drops it by just .5, the value will immediately drop $5,000.    Give the grade, back your reputation on it and stand by it.

This is not how reholdering works. They will NOT regrade the book. They will just take it out of one holder and put it into a new holder. If there is obvious damage to the book, they do have the discretion to regrade but if there is no obvious damage, they do not regrade books sent in for reholdering. So unless there is some sort of post slabbing damage that occurred in the slab, your friend is safe to reholder.

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43 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

Yeah, whatever, I just grabbed the pic from a thread about the damages of fireproof safes.  CGC even issued a warning on it.   I don't collect Superhero comics so was not exactly sure of the 1st Wolverine issue but that's it.

And it had nothing to do with humidity.  It is the chemicals in the fireproofing material that did this.    I do think humidity in a normal house is overrated.   Seen people with thousands of slabs displayed and not problems.  But I don't take chances on my expensive books - they are in a non-fireproof safe that is humidity controlled.

Of course it has to do with humidity. Rust is a chemical reaction between water, oxygen, and the iron in the staples. The higher the humidity...like in a fireproof safe...the easier it is for iron oxide to form. 

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4 hours ago, BladeTX said:

Wouldn't you like to know that if you sent in your precious, hyper-expensive 9.9 for a reholder that CGC would guarantee that it comes back a 9.9?  Or they would buy the book?  I've got a friend who has a very high value 9.9 in an old holder with a small crack.  He wants to get it into a new holder.  But CGC does not guarantee their grades.  If someone sees something that previously was missed, that book will come back as a 9.8 and my friend will lose about $8,000.   So yeah, it's an issue.

He also has a decent grade AF15.  He would like to get that put in the new Marvel custom holder.  But he told me if CGC reconsiders the grade and drops it by just .5, the value will immediately drop $5,000.    Give the grade, back your reputation on it and stand by it.

So, do you also believe CGC should be held liable for poor packaging and shipping practices between buyers and sellers?  What about the collector who sends his slabs to CGC for a re-holder who does a half-hearted packing job that damages the slab and the book? Should CGC still be held liable, even though the damage had nothing to do with them? Where does it end? 

 

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12 hours ago, BladeTX said:

Oh you can seriously mess up a coin by cracking it out - those things are sonically sealed and a Mother to crack out.  Put a scratch on a very nice coin and there goes $50K.   So I don’t get your point.  I’m sure at minimum grading fee of $40 (coin grading prices) and 3-4% of value, they could do just about anything. 

At any rate, I knew this was hypothetical.  I wish it could be done.  I know comics are fragile.  I guess there are situations where a comic degrades and it is not CGC’s fault.  Like the staples of this Hulk 181 9.8 that spent 3 years in a fireproof safe in a CGC holder...

 

63D1EB52-9A6C-43A0-B406-4B09302B3741.jpeg

If what you say about the history of this book is correct, this is terrifying 

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39 minutes ago, NoMan said:

If what you say about the history of this book is correct, this is terrifying 

Yes, a very long thread on it if you look.  This was back in 2012.  Book was CGC 9.8 when graded.   Spent 3 years in a SentrySafe and all 5 books of his were affected but this was the worst one.  CGC had a few other collectors comment about this brand of fireproof safe.  Long story short, it was blamed on the chemicals in the fire-retardant material on the outside of the safe.   The guy bought a reader copy of the same book, extracted the staples, replaced them, and CGC assigned a 9.8 Green Label.

I had my books for a year in the same brand safe (CGC would not mention the company obviously for legal reasons but people on the board did).  I pulled them out and now have them in a non-fireproof safe.  Literally a metal box with a digital key that is bolted to the floor for security.   

But yeah, the sight of that is just plain scary.

Edited by BladeTX
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12 hours ago, Crops068 said:

I think you misunderstand my comments or are you implying that the crack and the mishandling of AF15 would happened at CGC?  If so, I assume anything is possible but I would imagine with one being an old slab that is pretty hard to prove and the other having a crack, unless it was there when they received it and they documented and contacted CGC then that is also pretty hard to prove.  I believe I have heard of someone on here saying that their book was damaged by a grader and they were compensated for it.  So I think if CGC had done the damage, I would hope they would fess up.

What I was saying is that the owner of the slabbed item or someone that came into contact with it after they received it could have mishandled it.  That is what CGC has to contend with, that is their unknown.  So when items are sent back in for reholdering or due to cracks, it is absolutely in CGC's best interest to be sure the item is still in the same condition (or even the same item) it was when they sent it out previously.

Thanks, valid points.   Just for the record on the high value 9.9, the crack is small and at the top of one corner by the label.  It is just cosmetic but annoys this collector.  But I get it.  If my house flooded and I had certified coins, I would honestly not be concerned about them sitting in water for 24 hours.  Those cases are bulletproof - I have removed some and it is a project that includes flying sharp pieces of thick plastic.   But if CGC comics were submerged for 24 hours... I don't see a favorable outcome.

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6 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

Yes, a very long thread on it if you look.  This was back in 2012.  Book was CGC 9.8 when graded.   Spent 3 years in a SentrySafe and all 5 books of his were affected but this was the worst one.  CGC had a few other collectors comment about this brand of fireproof safe.  Long story short, it was blamed on the chemicals in the fire-retardant material on the outside of the safe.   The guy bought a reader copy of the same book, extracted the staples, replaced them, and CGC assigned a 9.8 Green Label.

I had my books for a year in the same brand safe (CGC would not mention the company obviously for legal reasons but people on the board did).  I pulled them out and now have them in a non-fireproof safe.  Literally a metal box with a digital key that is bolted to the floor for security.   

But yeah, the sight of that is just plain scary.

Sentry saves are not good for security either. The locks they use are garbage. I’ve had a Sentry fire safe since I was a kid and somewhere along the way lost the key. Looked on YouTube and a ten year old kid taught me how to pick that lock with a paper clip in a minute flat. I had never picked a lock before and it opened so easily I never bothered to order a replacement key, I can just pick the lock reliably whenever I want. I’ve tried the same method on the the front door for like 45 minutes with no luck before

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