Man, I wish CGC guaranteed grades like this.... 0

[BladeTX]

12 hours ago, LordRahl said:

This is not how reholdering works. They will NOT regrade the book. They will just take it out of one holder and put it into a new holder. If there is obvious damage to the book, they do have the discretion to regrade but if there is no obvious damage, they do not regrade books sent in for reholdering. So unless there is some sort of post slabbing damage that occurred in the slab, your friend is safe to reholder.

I respect your opinion and with the number of posts you have, you obviously have a lot of experience.  However, you are only partially correct.  I watched a really great hour interview with the Director of Marketing and a Senior Grader at CGC.  People could live stream questions and someone specifically asked if a book could be downgraded during a reholder.  They said yes, sometimes graders will relooks at a reholder book if rare, unique or maybe just random, IDK.  But it is not simply a person pulling out the book, putting in a new holder and printing a new label.   I would really like to hear from someone who has sent in several 9.9s and 10.0s to see if they every got a downgrade.   Personally I have sent in 15 for reholder and all have come back the same grade.  I've got 10 more in now, and 2 have values over $2,500 but I'm willing to take the chance as I want all of my collection in new holders, I strongly prefer them.  Anyway, it was coming directly from a CGC grader so a good source.

[BladeTX]

11 hours ago, joecgcmaniac said:

So, do you also believe CGC should be held liable for poor packaging and shipping practices between buyers and sellers?  What about the collector who sends his slabs to CGC for a re-holder who does a half-hearted packing job that damages the slab and the book? Should CGC still be held liable, even though the damage had nothing to do with them? Where does it end? 

 

Of course not, I am hypothetically saying it would be great if there was a way for CGC to stand by the grade.  Obviously for all the points in this thread, there does not seem to be a way to do it.  I was merely pointing out that in another collectible area, grades are guaranteed.  I wonder if anyone can comment on trading/baseball cards and if those have grade guarantees.

[BladeTX]

25 minutes ago, 90sChild said:

That book must have been in Louisiana or Florida or something.  Can't imagine any book going from normal staples to full blown rust in a few years. 

It was blamed on the chemicals in the Fireproof material causing a chemical reaction with whatever they used to make that staple.   Humidity was not deemed to be the causal factor.

[BladeTX]

9 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

Sentry saves are not good for security either. The locks they use are garbage. I’ve had a Sentry fire safe since I was a kid and somewhere along the way lost the key. Looked on YouTube and a ten year old kid taught me how to pick that lock with a paper clip in a minute flat. I had never picked a lock before and it opened so easily I never bothered to order a replacement key, I can just pick the lock reliably whenever I want. I’ve tried the same method on the the front door for like 45 minutes with no luck before

SentrySafe changed the way their keys work, likely because of what you said.   The keys no longer bypass the digital lock.  They are a secondary measure.   I guess in case your kid figures out the digital numbers, if it is also locked with the key it will not open.   It sort of freaked me out, I do have another safe where the key overrides the digital lock.  But with the SentrySafe, if you forget the digital combination, you are screwed and will be cutting the thing open.  The keys do not bypass.

[90sChild]

Makes sense, will avoid those going forward.  Also interesting is the fact that any typical store bought safe you buy is not engineered correctly anyway to stop someone that knows what they are doing.  Came across this a few years ago and found it really interesting.  

 

Found another one of the videos I remembered, the Sturdy Safe people have a great USA company.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by 90sChild

[ADAMANTIUM]

2 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

It was blamed on the chemicals in the Fireproof material causing a chemical reaction with whatever they used to make that staple.   Humidity was not deemed to be the causal factor.

i've done reholders with no problem, i do understand the hesitation though, but more than likely though there wouldn't be a problem though...

as i'm not willing to pony up if i'm wrong  i can't offer advice, other than i've had no issues nor know anyone who has....

[newshane]

13 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

I respect your opinion and with the number of posts you have, you obviously have a lot of experience.  However, you are only partially correct.  I watched a really great hour interview with the Director of Marketing and a Senior Grader at CGC.  People could live stream questions and someone specifically asked if a book could be downgraded during a reholder.  They said yes, sometimes graders will relooks at a reholder book if rare, unique or maybe just random, IDK.  But it is not simply a person pulling out the book, putting in a new holder and printing a new label.   I would really like to hear from someone who has sent in several 9.9s and 10.0s to see if they every got a downgrade.   Personally I have sent in 15 for reholder and all have come back the same grade.  I've got 10 more in now, and 2 have values over $2,500 but I'm willing to take the chance as I want all of my collection in new holders, I strongly prefer them.  Anyway, it was coming directly from a CGC grader so a good source.

I have sent in almost a dozen 9.9s for reholders. I've sent in scores of other books for reholders. I have NEVER gotten a downgrade. 

Reholding service does NOT equal regrading service. They aren't getting paid to sit there and grade every reholder, so why should they? 

The only time a book will get dinged during reholder is if there is OBVIOUS and apparent damage to the book...think of 9.9 that has been banged around in an older holder and now has a microtear, blunted edge, or some other sort of super noticeable damage. 

The CGC knows that people will be enraged if they get dinged during reholder. Dinging a grade previously assigned would not be a good look for the company because:

1. That says they can't grade, or won't stand by a previously assigned grade. 

2. That says that the book can get damaged in the holder. Even though this is a known possibility, I'm certain they don't want to draw attention to that fact. 

None of the above would inspire confidence in the company. They would be shooting themselves in the foot. They would also lose a lot of business through the reholder service. Once again, not a smart play on their part to make a habit out of regrading/dinging books. 

The number of books that get dinged during reholder is more than likely very, very, very small. I think the paranoia is unwarranted. 

Look over the 9.9 in question...carefully! If you can't see a single flaw, you have nothing to worry about. 

[newshane]

19 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

It was blamed on the chemicals in the Fireproof material causing a chemical reaction with whatever they used to make that staple.   Humidity was not deemed to be the causal factor.

It's both the chemical AND the humidity. 

This is why gunowners and comic collectors should (and often do) use desiccants in their safes. 

[BladeTX]

4 minutes ago, newshane said:

I have sent in almost a dozen 9.9s for reholders. I've sent in scores of other books for reholders. I have NEVER gotten a downgrade. 

Reholding service does NOT equal regrading service. They aren't getting paid to sit there and grade every reholder, so why should they? 

The only time a book will get dinged during reholder is if there is OBVIOUS and apparent damage to the book...think of 9.9 that has been banged around in an older holder and now has a microtear, blunted edge, or some other sort of super noticeable damage. 

The CGC knows that people will be enraged if they get dinged during reholder. Dinging a grade previously assigned would not be a good look for the company because:

1. That says they can't grade, or won't stand by a previously assigned grade. 

2. That says that the book can get damaged in the holder. Even though this is a known possibility, I'm certain they don't want to draw attention to that fact. 

None of the above would inspire confidence in the company. They would be shooting themselves in the foot. They would also lose a lot of business through the reholder service. Once again, not a smart play on their part to make a habit out of regrading/dinging books. 

The number of books that get dinged during reholder is more than likely very, very, very small. I think the paranoia is unwarranted. 

Look over the 9.9 in question...carefully! If you can't see a single flaw, you have nothing to worry about. 

Truly excellent advice.  I will pass this along to my friend who is concerned about reholdering.

[BladeTX]

1 minute ago, newshane said:

It's both the chemical AND the humidity. 

This is why gunowners and comic collectors should (and often do) use desiccants in their safes. 

Correct, the reason the humidity was not a factor is the collector was using dessicants and monitoring humidity levels.   

This may be controversial, I know nothing about long term comic prevention, but I saw a thread where some people worried that too low humidity would dry out the book and make it more fragile (specifically older comics).   Is that valid?  Is use dessicants in my safe and maintain the humidity at 15% to 20%

[newshane]

1 minute ago, BladeTX said:

Truly excellent advice.  I will pass this along to my friend who is concerned about reholdering.

Thanks! 

BTW, more than a few of my reholders were done on books costing northward of $5,000. 

Just make sure he packs the book very well, and I don't see why he'd have a problem as long as the book still looked super clean. 

[newshane]

3 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

Correct, the reason the humidity was not a factor is the collector was using dessicants and monitoring humidity levels.   

This may be controversial, I know nothing about long term comic prevention, but I saw a thread where some people worried that too low humidity would dry out the book and make it more fragile (specifically older comics).   Is that valid?  Is use dessicants in my safe and maintain the humidity at 15% to 20%

I'd rather have it too dry than too damp. 

20% is a little on the dry side, but based on my extensive research, I doubt a book would turn to dust under those conditions. 

I think around 40% is the magic number. 

[BladeTX]

3 minutes ago, newshane said:

I'd rather have it too dry than too damp. 

20% is a little on the dry side, but based on my extensive research, I doubt a book would turn to dust under those conditions. 

I think around 40% is the magic number. 

Interesting!  The humidity strips in my safe have a call-out on the 30% level to say replace dessicant at that time.  My house maintains humidity in the mid-40's.   I guess I need less dessicant or can let it degrade past the 30% point?   I'm sure there are all sorts of opinions on this, I am still fairly new and learning.

[newshane]

5 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

Interesting!  The humidity strips in my safe have a call-out on the 30% level to say replace dessicant at that time.  My house maintains humidity in the mid-40's.   I guess I need less dessicant or can let it degrade past the 30% point?   I'm sure there are all sorts of opinions on this, I am still fairly new and learning.

Anything 20-40% would be just fine. I wouldn't worry about it.

[newshane]

Here is some reading for you...

Preservationequipment.com

The Effect of Moisture on Paper

Temperature 70 F.

% Relative Humidity	% Moisture in Paper
100	21.5
90	13.5
80	8.9
70	8.4
60	6.5
50	5.6
40	3.4
30	2.3
20	1.8

[newshane]

Another source (National Gallery of Australia) is telling me that "The recommended museum levels are 20ºC and 50%RH." 

Once again, I think the magic number for comics is between 30-40%. 

[dupont2005]

1 hour ago, 90sChild said:

Makes sense, will avoid those going forward.  Also interesting is the fact that any typical store bought safe you buy is not engineered correctly anyway to stop someone that knows what they are doing.  Came across this a few years ago and found it really interesting.  

 

Found another one of the videos I remembered, the Sturdy Safe people have a great USA company.

 

 

Always anchor the safe to the ground so it can’t be laid on its back like that. Makes forcing them open much harder

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, BladeTX said:

It was blamed on the chemicals in the Fireproof material causing a chemical reaction with whatever they used to make that staple.   Humidity was not deemed to be the causal factor.

Then whoever so deemed it doesn't know basic chemistry.

Rust...iron oxide...is caused by water (either in liquid or vapor form), oxygen, and iron. Those "chemicals" were H2O, Fe2 and O2. 

Can rust form without water? Yes, but it would take a very long time, or very high heat. Obviously, high heat was not the issue, and neither was time. So what happened? Water vapor...humidity...interacted with the oxygen already in the air and the iron in the staples.

Iron has a certain tendency to dissolve in water according to the following equation:

Fe(s)⟶Fe2+(aq)+2e−Fe(s)⟶FeX2+(aq)+2eX−

The release of electrons causes a small current to flow in the metal (Remember that metals conduct electricity). This turns the point where iron dissolves into an anode, and the region around this area becomes rich in electrons, a cathode. Now, we have to remember that water dissociates to small extents according to:

H2O(l)↽−−⇀H+(aq)+OH−(aq)HX2O(l)↽−−⇀HX+(aq)+OHX−(aq)

If it was an acid, the H+HX+ would have quickly taken all the electrons liberated from the dissolution of iron earlier, but the concentration of hydrogen ions is not large enough in water, so that we get another reaction taking place at the cathode [The hydrogen ions actually 'gather up' near to the surface but cannot do anything, creating a thin protective layer of hydrogen ions around the cathode, but not strong enough to prevent further reaction]. This reaction involves oxygen and other water molecules:

2H2O(l)+O2(g)+4e−⟶4OH−(aq)2HX2O(l)+OX2(g)+4eX−⟶4OHX−(aq)

Now this is the OH−OHX− that reacts with the earlier liberated iron (or ferrous) ions:

Fe2+(aq)+2OH− (aq)⟶Fe(OH)2(aq)FeX2+(aq)+2OHX− (aq)⟶Fe(OH)X2(aq)

Now more oxygen will react to oxidise the iron (II) hydroxide...

Fe(OH)2(aq) −→O Fe(OH)3(aq) −→O Fe2O3(s)Fe(OH)X2(aq) →O Fe(OH)X3(aq) →O FeX2OX3(s)

You probably can recognise the last product.

As the Fe2+FeX2+ are consumed, more iron will get dissolved (Le Chatelier's Principle) and keep the whole process going.

Maybe a little picture to go along with this

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/5134/why-cant-rust-form-without-water

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, newshane said:

It's both the chemical AND the humidity. 

This is why gunowners and comic collectors should (and often do) use desiccants in their safes. 

And dessicants don't last forever; they need to be replaced periodically.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, BladeTX said:

6 hours ago, newshane said:

It's both the chemical AND the humidity. 

This is why gunowners and comic collectors should (and often do) use desiccants in their safes. 

Correct, the reason the humidity was not a factor is the collector was using dessicants and monitoring humidity levels

If said collector was monitoring humidity levels, why were they not also not monitoring rust formation on the staples? A quick glance would have spotted rust long before it got as bad as the picture shows.

I suspect that said collector didn't replace his or her dessicant, and the humidity level got to the point where there was enough water vapor to act as a catalyst and really get the chemical reaction of rust formation going.